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Contradictions in the bible


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#151    scowl

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 08:35 PM

View Posteight bits, on 15 November 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

Why not? The books don't correspond with authorship boundaries, either. Job appears to have at least two authors, who lived centuries apart. Isaiah appears to have at least three. Just the first three chapters of Genesis appear to have two, and I believe three. And so on.

And why weren't later authors able to review an entire book for consistency after they made their additions to it?


#152    scowl

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 08:42 PM

View Postand then, on 16 November 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

I only ever heard of one person with this name and he wasn't Jewish so I'm not sure your statement is correct.
John Ronald Reuel Tolkien wasn't Jewish:
I had a Jewish uncle named Reuel. I wonder where Tolkien got his second middle name.

Micah has become such a popular name for Jewish girls for the past few years that it's starting to become a generally popular name. A name's just a name. :tu:


#153    eight bits

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 08:57 PM

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And why weren't later authors able to review an entire book for consistency after they made their additions to it?

What would be the value of that "consistency" to the later authors? I don't follow. The point is to have a conversation about what remain open questions ("remain open" as in still open today, never mind still open more than 1500 years ago).

How is the later author supposed to comment on the earlier one if he erases what the earlier one said? That makes no sense to me. Sorry.

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#154    Amalthe

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 01:40 PM

View PostCelestialStar, on 16 November 2012 - 04:39 AM, said:

Whenever i would bring up contradictions in the bible, my pastor would say, "there are none"
and be able to dismiss it because i couldn't remember where they were,
I wonder.....what shall his response be now that i can finally flag it in his face.
I stopped believing a year ago and had a discovery.......my life is better now than ever and i am a lot more at peace of mind.
also, i asked another religious leader a question like this : "if you were a mass murderer but still 'christian' and believed in Christ and then there was a little atheist girl who's family refused Christ but each member of the family volunteered for community service, helping the homeless and taking care of the elderly, you would go to heaven but they wouldn't, why?"

him: because only Christ can bring purity and save people from hell
me: but only Christians worship Christ, by that definition, only Christians are worthy of heaven, and everyone else to hell by that definition, So even if you were a mass murderer, and she was a sinless little girl, she would go to hell because she didn't believe despite her good while you get to go to heaven even doing such wrongs?
me:So in other words she is condemned just for not being a Christian?!?


the response that came back was: Exactly

I stopped believing after that, that was terrible and i felt sick thinking about all the people i condemned for not being christian.


I got to tell you, whoever had such conversation with you, is poor at handling truth about Christianity. But that is understandable, because as in all other endeavors of human mind, people who read something once believe they understand everything, and only by becoming more and more acquainted with some subject, more and more you realize modest borders of your knowledge.


Mass murderer CAN be saved only if he was murderer before knowing Christ and his repentance. If he continues in his wicked ways after receiving testimony from the Holy Spirit, and after understanding and accepting Christ as a saviour, he cannot be saved, because in his heart, he knows murder is against God principles, and that knowledge utterly condemns him. [Mk. 3:29; Mt. 12:32; Lk. 12:10]

Sinless little girl cannot be thrown into hell, because in essence God has no legal basis to do so. Humans are born innocent (Mk. 10:13) and when grown, they all are judged by their hearts, not be their brains or knowledge or sense of belonging to this group or another. Why were her atheist parents involved into community work?  Because they believed it was right thing to do? Then they are just before God (Rom 2:11-15).


So please, consider that there is something more in Christianity, then some sorry poor minded people can explain.


#155    scowl

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:21 PM

View Posteight bits, on 16 November 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

What would be the value of that "consistency" to the later authors? I don't follow.

Follow this: contradiction creates confusion, confusion leads to disagreement, disagreement leads to fragmentation.


#156    eight bits

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:14 PM

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Follow this: contradiction creates confusion, confusion leads to disagreement, disagreement leads to fragmentation.

Maybe, but contradiction arises in the first place because of disagreement. Disagreement over time may reflect changes in the overall situation.

For example, in the New Testament, an early author like Paul expects to be alive to see Jesus' return, but later ones (like the pseudo-Paul who wrote the Pastoral epistles) know that it didn't happen. There is no way that earlier and later authors can agree to continue theorizing about this central concern of the earlier authors. It didn't happen. See John 21 for a comment criticizing Peter or his followers on this very point.

Also, the authors aren't necessarily the people running the organization. Paul ran his outfit, but his writ plainly didn't run in Jerusalem. There's no reason to think that any of the Gospel writers was an administrator. So organizational "fragmentation" isn't necessarily an authorial concern. Paul seems to revel in it. Ditto whoever wrote John. An administrator's fragmentation may be an author's telling it like it is, baby.

And as for the Old Testament, why should Jews fragment over religious beliefs? They're Jews by circumstance of birth, no mere disagreement can change that. Judaism can survive merely opinionated fragmentation. Blood is thicker than ink.

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#157    aryannatimothy

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 04:01 AM

We can never tell what happened to these writings and why there are contracdictions. But as I have suspected it, the Bible has been interpreted, translated, and passed on from generations to generations by humans. We make mistakes and we have our very own interpretations of it. Sure thing, all these post to a lot of questions but as a Christian, it's enough that we live by faith though the truth is vague, right?

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#158    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 05:48 PM

http://www.infidels....sistencies.html

It would take at least three posts to put them all on here.

Thomas Paine wrote in The Age of Reason that “Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous execution, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God."
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#159    Ben Masada

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:34 PM

View PostCelestialStar, on 16 November 2012 - 04:39 AM, said:

Whenever i would bring up contradictions in the bible, my pastor would say, "there are none"
and be able to dismiss it because i couldn't remember where they were,
I wonder.....what shall his response be now that i can finally flag it in his face.
I stopped believing a year ago and had a discovery.......my life is better now than ever and i am a lot more at peace of mind.
also, i asked another religious leader a question like this : "if you were a mass murderer but still 'christian' and believed in Christ and then there was a little atheist girl who's family refused Christ but each member of the family volunteered for community service, helping the homeless and taking care of the elderly, you would go to heaven but they wouldn't, why?"

him: because only Christ can bring purity and save people from hell
me: but only Christians worship Christ, by that definition, only Christians are worthy of heaven, and everyone else to hell by that definition, So even if you were a mass murderer, and she was a sinless little girl, she would go to hell because she didn't believe despite her good while you get to go to heaven even doing such wrongs?
me:So in other words she is condemned just for not being a Christian?!?


the response that came back was: Exactly

I stopped believing after that, that was terrible and i felt sick thinking about all the people i condemned for not being christian.

It is like what Thomas Aquina said: "There is no salvation outside the Church." As far as I can understand, it doesn't matter what one does, as long as he or she belongs in the Church as a Catholic, there is always something to do to purge one's wrongdoing.

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#160    Ben Masada

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:43 PM

View Postaryannatimothy, on 22 November 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:

We can never tell what happened to these writings and why there are contracdictions. But as I have suspected it, the Bible has been interpreted, translated, and passed on from generations to generations by humans. We make mistakes and we have our very own interpretations of it. Sure thing, all these post to a lot of questions but as a Christian, it's enough that we live by faith though the truth is vague, right?

IMHO, contradictions are due to many hands involved with the same cooking. Perhaps, if the Bible had had one single
author, contradictions would be almost nil. Truth is real, though. Vague is the human capacity to find the Truth or the method used is based on preconceived notions.

Ben


#161    eccv2389

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 11:01 AM

View Postpreacherman76, on 13 October 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

Here is a decent source that touches base on a few of the so called contradictions.

Though I have seen much better sources, I dont have alot of time this morning to go through them.

http://litteralchris...contradictions"
  It's funny how there is a picture of dudes without their shirt on on that page


#162    Ellapennella

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 02:18 PM

@Ben Masada
even though God is this force , this spirit, this energy that we can not ever explain nor understand, i do however think that if God wants to he can have a part of him . his identity, his nature, his will, to appear in human form , as in Christ. i don't believe Christ was  the entire  existence of God but i do believe in the story of the angel , Mariam and Christ.


#163    Sean93

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 06:13 PM

Do any of you feel that the God from the OT and the god from the NT are different dudes?

The OT god is a maniac while the one in the NT is all "Love, love love!" (with as bit of madness thrown in for plot purposes)

Of course in the OT he does show ability to 'change his ways' like when he says "Never again will I send floods to destroy life" - he must have realised soon after..." Hold up just a minute...I'm nuts!"

Edited by Sean93, 21 December 2012 - 06:15 PM.

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#164    Sean93

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 06:21 PM

Also, the argument that 'Human Error is responsible for the flaws in the bible is a cop-out of the highest order.

Surely if the writers of the bible were inspired by God, then God would actually make sure they didn't go off on a tangent and start writing all manner of crazy stories; unless of course even the bible recordings were done with free will and god did not prevent them authors from misquoting him. ("Hey I never said that; you can wear that 50% polyester, 50% Nylon fleece if you want!)

I think it's fairly evident that it all fell into the classic game of Telephone. One guy tells a story, then another hears it and tells it and another tells it from the second guy who changes it slightly (intentionally or not) and the rest is (badly written) history.

Edited by Sean93, 21 December 2012 - 06:22 PM.

"Be peaceful, be courteous, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery."

“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.”

#165    Paranoid Android

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 12:11 AM

View PostSean93, on 21 December 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

Do any of you feel that the God from the OT and the god from the NT are different dudes?

The OT god is a maniac while the one in the NT is all "Love, love love!" (with as bit of madness thrown in for plot purposes)
I personally don't see that.  This is the stereotype and it sometimes seems that people like to categorise the OT God as a violent maniac and the NT God as a cuddly teddy bear.  I honestly don't think either of these views is correct.  God in the Old Testament is a lot more loving than people give credit, and God in the New Testament is likewise a lot more judgemental than people give credit.  God shows love and forgiveness constantly in the Old Testament.  God preaches judgement and death constantly in the New Testament.

If there is a difference in the two testaments I would put it down to a matter of expediency - God's judgement was often immediate in the Old Testament whereas in the New Testament the judgement is promised to come one day in the future when our eternal lives are at stake.  That doesn't mean that God isn't less judgemental, and if you think about it it could even be said to be worse since our eternal souls are at stake - that was not at stake in the Old Testament.  

Whichever way you look at it, I find the stereotype of God in the Old and New Testaments to be utterly false.

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