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WW1 trench warefare as population control


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#16    Br Cornelius

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:53 PM

View PostCorp, on 08 January 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

I doubt evidence will turn up since the theory doesn't fit the time frame of the war nor the historical facts we have. Sounds like an attempt to link the population reduction conspiracy theories with historical "fact".
The man who told me is not prone to CT's.

Time will tell.

Br Cornelius

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#17    itsnotoutthere

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 09:14 PM

I watched a documentary about ww1 & apparently our military tactics hadn't developed much further than during the Nepoleonic wars, & with the development of the rapid fire machine gun, walking slowly in the upright position towards the enemy was a recipe for disaster.

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#18    Taun

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 11:53 PM

View Postitsnotoutthere, on 08 January 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

I watched a documentary about ww1 & apparently our military tactics hadn't developed much further than during the Nepoleonic wars, & with the development of the rapid fire machine gun, walking slowly in the upright position towards the enemy was a recipe for disaster.

Even during the American Civil War when weapons began to become more lethal, they were essentially using Napoleonic tactics... About the only branches of the worlds armies to 'learn the lesson' were the Cavalry and the Artillery... The Artillery learned to perform mass barrages with higher precision and the Cavalry learned to largely abandon the sabre and lance and rely almost entirely on firearms and maneuver...

Towards the end of WWI the Germans had developed fairly effective infiltration tactics that caused considerable trouble for the Allies... IIFRC they were called "Stosstruppen"...They were on the verge of changing from a Napoleonic 'line of battle' to more modern tactics... Unfortunately for them they ran out of resources, manpower, morale and time...

Edited by Taun, 08 January 2013 - 11:53 PM.


#19    Likely Guy

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 01:12 AM

I whole heartedly agree with the last few posts.

If it was a form of population control then why would Canada, Australia and New Zealand (all which were sparsely populated) send the best of at least two generations (disproportinately) into a meat grinder?

No, Br. Cornelius, I don't think that your friend is a CT either. I think that he just has a healthy long standing distust of Imperialism.

But yes, the UK did 'actively engage in wasteful trench warfare', only because the Germans did the same thing. If two people dig the same pit, neither can get out.


#20    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:15 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 08 January 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

I was refering to the fact that you dismissed the possibility that the idea could be true without seeing the evidence (or lack of).

This thread was a bait to see if anyone had that evidence - I was skeptical when I was told the story and I remain skeptical because there is as yet no evidence.

The other facts you mentioned are immaterial to this thread.

Br Cornelius

Yes I dismiss such a ludicrus idea.

From many of your other ramblings its obvious you've got an 'us and them' mentality firmly lodged in your mind. I dont know why you have it or why you cant see beyond it but thats none of my business. However the idea the working class are somehow being persecuted by those higher up the chain and your new idea that this extended to genocide during WW1 is dangerous, scary and laughable.

I think you need to drop your negative perceptions and be more positive towards others. People have a keen sense of fairness as the recent experiments in primary schools show were they got the kids to do two nice things to other people per week. Nice, positive, friendly actions towards others gets the same response back because it makes people like you. Negative perceptions and bitter remarks attract the same response back because it makes people hate you. If you try being nice, positive and friendly towards those with higher positions than you in society instead of constantly whinning about them then you might get a shock.

Someone higher up is a human being just like you not the demon you want them to be.

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 09 January 2013 - 09:17 AM.


#21    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:17 AM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 09 January 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

Yes I dismiss such a ludicrus idea.

From many of your other ramblings its obvious you've got an 'us and them' mentality firmly lodged in your mind. I dont know why you have it or why you cant see beyond it but thats none of my business. However the idea the working class are somehow being persecuted by those higher up the chain and your new idea that this extended to genocide during WW1 is dangerous, scary and laughable.

I think you need to drop your negative perceptions and be more positive towards others. People have a keen sense of fairness as the recent experiments in primary schools show were they got the kids to do two nice things to other people per week. Nice, positive, friendly actions towards others gets the same response back because it makes people like you. Negative perceptions and bitter remarks attract the same response back because it makes people hate you. If you try being nice, positive and friendly towards those with higher positions than you in society instead of constantly whinning about them then you might get a shock.

duplicate

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 09 January 2013 - 09:17 AM.


#22    AsteroidX

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:34 AM

Any war that is that gruesome is seen as a form of population control from people that sit protected behind a desk. Wether they realize it or not. Wake up. You dont have a million people die over a few square miles over several years because its cool or fun.

Politics aside.


#23    Professor T

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:36 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 07 January 2013 - 09:01 PM, said:

I was talking to a New Zealand friend over the christmas holidays and he told me something shocking.
He said that during the WW1 the  UK government cabinet papers showed that the government was very concerned that a glut of underemployed working class people posed a threat to national stability with a very real fear of Russian style revolution. The papers supposedly say that they were very well aware that the trench warfare they advocated was wasteful of people and that this was a way to avoid such a post war revolution by reducing the working class population of the UK.

The question is, is this true and does anyone have references to the supposed cabinet papers.

Br Cornelius

Weird post?? But weirdly enough there seems to be a ring of truth about this..
Contary to what a lot of the previous posters have said, trench warefare was first created and used by the Maori here in New Zealand way back in the 1840s.. The British new exactly what to epect from trench warfare during WW1 because the'd seen it in use against them during the New Zealand Land wars and they got a hammering over it.. Hell, 50 years later they used it to great effect in the boar wars..


#24    Br Cornelius

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:54 AM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 09 January 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

Yes I dismiss such a ludicrus idea.

From many of your other ramblings its obvious you've got an 'us and them' mentality firmly lodged in your mind. I dont know why you have it or why you cant see beyond it but thats none of my business. However the idea the working class are somehow being persecuted by those higher up the chain and your new idea that this extended to genocide during WW1 is dangerous, scary and laughable.

I think you need to drop your negative perceptions and be more positive towards others. People have a keen sense of fairness as the recent experiments in primary schools show were they got the kids to do two nice things to other people per week. Nice, positive, friendly actions towards others gets the same response back because it makes people like you. Negative perceptions and bitter remarks attract the same response back because it makes people hate you. If you try being nice, positive and friendly towards those with higher positions than you in society instead of constantly whinning about them then you might get a shock.

Someone higher up is a human being just like you not the demon you want them to be.
Mr Right Wing - I want facts not your opinions. When I have them I will voice my opinion on this subject.

To deny that Britain has been riven by class conflict is to deny reality. Harold Wilson was under constant threat of a coup;

http://en.wikipedia....piracy_theories



Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 09 January 2013 - 11:11 AM.

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#25    Taun

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:42 AM

View PostProfessor T, on 09 January 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

Weird post?? But weirdly enough there seems to be a ring of truth about this..
Contary to what a lot of the previous posters have said, trench warefare was first created and used by the Maori here in New Zealand way back in the 1840s.. The British new exactly what to epect from trench warfare during WW1 because the'd seen it in use against them during the New Zealand Land wars and they got a hammering over it.. Hell, 50 years later they used it to great effect in the boar wars..

While the Maori did indeed use trenches... trench warfare has existed at least since the mid to late 1600's...  The French Marshall Vaubaun (sp?) firmly believed in it and advocated it's use to assault the 'star fortresses' that he helped design and sell to virtually all the crowned heads of Europe... Probably if you go further back in history you could find examples of trench warfare all the way back to the Romans and Greeks...

from what I can find... the first sustained, heavy use of modern trench warfare started in about 1863 during the seige of Vicksburg in the American Civil war...

Edited by Taun, 09 January 2013 - 11:44 AM.


#26    AsteroidX

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:44 AM

I believe it was called siege warfare back them. Same principle different apparatus.


#27    Taun

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:53 PM

View PostAsteroidX, on 09 January 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

I believe it was called siege warfare back them. Same principle different apparatus.

True.. .but in the late 1600's the use of trenches began to almost totally replace other forms of field fortifications (palisades, gambions, walls, etc) for the seiging side...  Oddly enough the trench - at this time was an offensive field work.. it gradually worked toward the beseiged forces at oblique angles to lessen the impact of artillery and small arms... The defense was usually behind walls...


#28    questionmark

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 01:19 PM

View PostTaun, on 09 January 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

While the Maori did indeed use trenches... trench warfare has existed at least since the mid to late 1600's...  The French Marshall Vaubaun (sp?) firmly believed in it and advocated it's use to assault the 'star fortresses' that he helped design and sell to virtually all the crowned heads of Europe... Probably if you go further back in history you could find examples of trench warfare all the way back to the Romans and Greeks...

from what I can find... the first sustained, heavy use of modern trench warfare started in about 1863 during the seige of Vicksburg in the American Civil war...

Quite correct, just then it was easier to crack the trenches, you laid them under artillery and while they where still shell shocked you had your people storm. In WWI the trench warfare had changed to the point that a single machine gun could hold up a whole battalion after the shelling, making the tactic inadequate.

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#29    Taun

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 02:28 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 09 January 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

Quite correct, just then it was easier to crack the trenches, you laid them under artillery and while they where still shell shocked you had your people storm. In WWI the trench warfare had changed to the point that a single machine gun could hold up a whole battalion after the shelling, making the tactic inadequate.

Agreed... As the old saying goes... "You always fight the next war with either the last wars equipment or tactics... the losers use both..."

I really don't think there was any conspiracy to massacre the 'lower classes' in the first WW... I think it was just a case of technology far outstripping the abilities of the top commanders to adjust...  

That's not to say that the 'upper crust' were overly concerned about the deaths of so many 'peasants'... at least at first...

Edited by Taun, 09 January 2013 - 02:28 PM.


#30    Corp

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 06:12 PM

View PostProfessor T, on 09 January 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

Weird post?? But weirdly enough there seems to be a ring of truth about this..
Contary to what a lot of the previous posters have said, trench warefare was first created and used by the Maori here in New Zealand way back in the 1840s.. The British new exactly what to epect from trench warfare during WW1 because the'd seen it in use against them during the New Zealand Land wars and they got a hammering over it.. Hell, 50 years later they used it to great effect in the boar wars..

The Maori didn't have machine guns and heavy artillery so their trench warefare was completely different from the type seen in the First World War. While trenches had been used for centuries it was the technological advances that made WW1 so deadly. And while there were examples of such horrors during the American Civil War the war most European leaders took their lessons from was the Franco-Prussian War, which was a quick and moble fight that ended fairly shortly. Plus the opening offensives of the war were also quick and it was only when successful counter attacks were launched then things turned into a stalemate. From then the military leaders on both sides were trying to recapture that mobility. That if they could just put in one good push their enemy would fall apart and the cavalry would do the rest. Events such as the fall of Serbia and the collapse of Russia would seem to reinforce that this idea was possible.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse...A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.




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