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Frisland – not mythical but submarine?


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#61    Abramelin

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 06:48 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 25 July 2010 - 06:46 PM, said:

I remember reading that since fresh water is heavier then salt water, that unless there is a bay, estuary or delta, the river just keeps on going and will run off the edge of the coninental shelf. The river can even still form a canyon under the ocean as it is still flowing and erodes a riverbed to travel in.

Sorry, but it's just the other way round.

http://geography.abo...sc/ucghyben.htm

But if the delta/bay I showed was formed by rivers transporting a huge amount of melt water form the glaciers, than the bay on the image could well be brackish or even fresh, and yes, then it might have been possible the river continued flowing on the bottom of the sea.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 July 2010 - 06:53 PM.


#62    Abramelin

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 06:49 PM

View Postlightly, on 25 July 2010 - 06:47 PM, said:

New Zealand ...   off topic.. just wanted to show the submerged rivers
Attachment N.Z. shelf.jpg

Yes, rivers, 25 or more millions of years old...


#63    DieChecker

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 07:26 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 25 July 2010 - 06:48 PM, said:

Sorry, but it's just the other way round.

http://geography.abo...sc/ucghyben.htm

But if the delta/bay I showed was formed by rivers transporting a huge amount of melt water form the glaciers, than the bay on the image could well be brackish or even fresh, and yes, then it might have been possible the river continued flowing on the bottom of the sea.
Yeah. You are right. Fresh water is lighter then salt water. Still from what I have read, these canyons almost always show up in the same regions where rivers enter the ocean. So maybe it is a result of the sediments continuing on down the slope, rather then the water itself.

I tend to agree with the theory about Frisland and the Frisian pirates.

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#64    Riaan

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 07:26 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 25 July 2010 - 05:29 PM, said:

OK, maybe I said it in the wrong words, but I meant a map showing depths.

... then what makes you think these ancient rivers are 4000 meters down?


The Microsoft Encarta Interactive World Atlas is really useful, see image below. The legend indicates that the area into which the river disappears is >4000m below sea level.

Posted Image

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Details here.

#65    lightly

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 07:33 PM

About the now submerged rivers...   COLDer water would flow in streams along the bottom ?.. cutting as it went?

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#66    Riaan

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 09:28 PM

View Postlightly, on 25 July 2010 - 07:33 PM, said:

About the now submerged rivers...   COLDer water would flow in streams along the bottom ?.. cutting as it went?

Not for 180 km

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#67    lightly

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 09:46 PM

View PostRiaan, on 25 July 2010 - 09:28 PM, said:

Not for 180 km

Right .

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#68    DieChecker

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 10:09 PM

View PostRiaan, on 25 July 2010 - 09:28 PM, said:

Not for 180 km
How do you know? Intuition? "Common Sense"? Because you have a Degree in Oceanography?

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#69    Abramelin

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 11:22 PM

View PostRiaan, on 25 July 2010 - 07:26 PM, said:

The Microsoft Encarta Interactive World Atlas is really useful, see image below. The legend indicates that the area into which the river disappears is >4000m below sea level.

Posted Image

I projected the legend into the area I called a delta, just so we can compare the colors of the index with the color of the delta:

Posted Image

And from that I see that the delta is at a depth between 2000 and 4000 meters.

But although your latest map indicates that depth, the map itself seems less acurate than the one without the index you posted before.

If this latest map of yours was accurate, then that would mean that the south west coast of the Celtic Shelf would have been a scary place to stand: a drop of kilometers, directly from the edge down to sea level.

What I meant with accurate is a bathymetric map showing lines of equal depth, iso-somethings.

-

Btw, Lightly said something excellent: cold water would sink... The Celtic Shelf was washed by the ancient Gulf Stream, but the glacial melt rivers flowing from the direction of Ireland, through a frozen and barren tundra, would be near freezing and carrying lots of sediment and gravel (thanks Diechecker). So, folllowing that idea, these glacier rivers would be like huge sandpapers, carving out valleys far beyond the ancient coast.

EDIT:

I meant an accurate map like this (alas, the area we talk about is just outside the map) :

Posted Image
.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 July 2010 - 11:26 PM.


#70    Abramelin

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 12:19 AM

Just as an extra, because I know you love maps like I do (maybe for different reasons, but that doesn't matter):

HUGE (and with those lines I talked about, but no numbers,ggrr) :
http://www.bgr.de/ka...january2002.jpg

https://www.bgr.de/a...igme_frames.php

Alas, this one is too tiny (it will cost you 30 dollars to see it in full, jeesh):

Posted Image

And something about sea glaciers:
http://en.wikipedia....ish_Sea_Glacier

++++++++

EDIT:

I think we are deviating a bit from the original topic, and I am guilty of that too.

What we need is an accurate map of the area of the Faroe Islands, a really accurate one.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 26 July 2010 - 12:24 AM.


#71    Abramelin

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 09:41 AM

I was talking about the last ice age, but look here:


In the Celtic Sea, to the south of Ireland, water in some winters becomes sufficiently cooled and heavy to flow to the edge of the continental shelf and to run down the continental slope to a depth of several hundred metres. A theory of the phenomenon, termed ‘cascading’, has been developed. Three winters have been examined in detail.

In February 1927 much water, heavy enough to cascade, was present in the Celtic Sea and also in the English Channel. A probable course and speed of the cascading water over the shelf has been established. Since there were few observations of salinity and temperature over or beyond the slope, and none of oxygen anywhere, the theory cannot be completely established on the basis of the 1927 observations, full though they were.



http://journals.camb...ine&aid=4331348


#72    lightly

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 12:48 PM

http://www.philaprin...p.com/zeno.html

After Abraham Ortelius. "Gemeine Beschreibung Aller Mitnachtigen Lander alsz Schweden Gothen Norwegien Dennmarck &c." From Sebastian Munster's Cosmographia. Basle: Sebastian Petri, [1588]. 12 1/4 x 14 1/4. Woodcut. Full margins. Very good condition. German text.
An early derivative of the Oretlius map of the North Sea, containing many non-existent lands and islands, most based on the Zeno geography. This map was introduced to Sebastian Munster's Cosmographia by Sebastian Petri in 1588, replacing an early map of the same region. It is based upon Abraham Ortelius' map first issued in 1573. The non-existent islands of Frisland and Icaria are shown near Iceland, and further west Estotiland is shown as a part of North America. Other mythical features abound, including the islands of St. Brendan, Brazil, Verde, and Groclandt. Whatever its link to reality, this is a graphic image of Renaissance cartography and legend; a truly fabulous map.

  Hi,  i don't know if this map contributes to the discussion..  but i'll show it anyway.. its cool.  My link

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#73    Abramelin

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 01:48 PM

View Postlightly, on 26 July 2010 - 12:48 PM, said:

http://www.philaprin...p.com/zeno.html

After Abraham Ortelius. "Gemeine Beschreibung Aller Mitnachtigen Lander alsz Schweden Gothen Norwegien Dennmarck &c." From Sebastian Munster's Cosmographia. Basle: Sebastian Petri, [1588]. 12 1/4 x 14 1/4. Woodcut. Full margins. Very good condition. German text.
An early derivative of the Oretlius map of the North Sea, containing many non-existent lands and islands, most based on the Zeno geography. This map was introduced to Sebastian Munster's Cosmographia by Sebastian Petri in 1588, replacing an early map of the same region. It is based upon Abraham Ortelius' map first issued in 1573. The non-existent islands of Frisland and Icaria are shown near Iceland, and further west Estotiland is shown as a part of North America. Other mythical features abound, including the islands of St. Brendan, Brazil, Verde, and Groclandt. Whatever its link to reality, this is a graphic image of Renaissance cartography and legend; a truly fabulous map.

  Hi,  i don't know if this map contributes to the discussion..  but i'll show it anyway.. its cool.  My link

That Ortelius map is the one we have talked about. A few pages back I used Ortelius version of Friesland Island to create a list of placenames of that island.

Btw, your link last link is not ok.

-

OK, I see the map in your first link.
That map was made based on Ortelius map. We here have used Ortelius' own map.

Edited by Abramelin, 26 July 2010 - 01:51 PM.


#74    Abramelin

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 02:04 PM

Although off topic again, I have found a lot of info on that area south-west of Ireland, what I called a delta.

It's the socalled Porcupine Seabight.

I found great maps, even an animation of the area, and lots of other info... but I had two notepad files open, and closed the wrong one. You guessed it, I closed the one with all the info that took me hours to find.

Well, I am fed up with it now, but I managed to save some of it.

Those 'rivers' we talked about.. are 'ravines', and very old. That much I remember.

A nice pic of a site (sorry, I lost that link too..) :

Posted Image
Posted Image



The Porcupine Seabight is a deep-water basin in the Porcupine Bank in the northeastern Atlantic Ocean. It lies southwest of Ireland and is approximately 180 nautical miles (north-south axis) by 100 nautical miles (east-west axis). The feature is shaped roughly like an amphitheatre with the deepest point (approximately 3000 metres) lying to the southwest. Beyond the deepest point and southwest of the Porcupine Bank lies the Porcupine Abyssal Plain.

The basin lent its name to Operation Seabight, an Irish drug bust in November 2008.[1]


http://en.wikipedia....cupine_Seabight


#75    lightly

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 02:23 PM

Interesting Abramelin...  sorry you lost your info!  ( My link works for me.. maybe it's because it was downloaded on this computer ? ...   It was a rather large file/image over 500kb.  First time i've tried using the My link thingy.)
    Anyway..   your info says the deep end of the porcupine seabight is 3000  metres deep  .. and whether the features are Ravines or Ancient rivers  they would have been formed on dry land !  right?  Which means,at that spot, sea levels have risen  3000 meters..  or  the land has sunk 3000 meters.. or a combination of both. Which seems to blow conventional thinking on seal level changes out of the water?
*

Edited by lightly, 26 July 2010 - 03:20 PM.

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