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Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?

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#16    third_eye

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 05:43 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 07 March 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

That's an awful lot to see in someone's eyes.

It's a shade of desperation. Quite common these days.

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#17    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 05:44 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 07 March 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

Your post was a pleasant surprise, although I suspect you leave a lot of people who might read it kinda in the dust.

I would emphasize the difference between illusion (as exemplified by our view of "reality") and delusion.  Illusions do have something real "out there" that generates the illusion, even though our mind is the biggest actor in the creation of the illusion of the external world.

I appreciate your comment about karma. I usually express it as having the effect of changing your nature to the good or otherwise.

There is not too much emphasis on non-dualism except in reaction to Western dualism of body and soul.

Putting aside Buddhism and jumping straight to quantum mechanics we can show that nothing objective exists. QM shows the things we see as existing only exist when information is being gained on them (Buddhisms awareness).



Materialism is wrong.

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 07 March 2013 - 05:46 PM.


#18    third_eye

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 05:55 PM

Why ?

In order for QM to be right, we need the correctness (at the very least) of Materialism, its just a continuation of a path of reasoning.

If Materialism is wrong, QM would never have been reached to its state of postulation today.

The mind is the greatest tool in existence because it is the source of all created tools available to man, designed through the courtesy of the mind.
Thus if the mind focuses on itself through tools that it conceived, would the mind not see a mind through the limiting capacities of created tools ?
Or would the mind be informed of itself only from within a very much confined spectrum of detectable reality
On the note of reality ... how much of our reality is verifiable through independent means ?

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#19    Frank Merton

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 05:57 PM

Maya dying would be a lot more than desperation.

A few remarks that may or may not be pertinent.  If you see the Buddha, kill him.  Well, no -- killing people is kinda verboten.  That needs to be interpreted in context --"The Buddha is dead, so if you see him on the road, kill him" to me means don't believe what you see.

Don't meditate in temple unless you are a monk and then in private.  This is not public display.  Meditating is not something done by most lay Asian Buddhists, although lately it has been spreading.  It is what you do if you are seeking enlightenment, not to cure a headache (although its good for that too).

People don't think the thing up there all covered with gold leaf is the Buddha, or they wouldn't call it an idol.  It is not even a very good representation of him, and there are idols of all sorts of others about - various worthies that vary from country to country.  They don't "worship," or if they do that is a serious misunderstanding verging on mistranslation.  It's all very effect for setting mood into spirituality gear.


#20    Frank Merton

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 06:01 PM

Things are way ahead of me.  By materialism I assume you mean modern physicalism.  The old idea that only matter and space/time exist has been abandoned for ages, and now instead of "matter" in the formula you have "matter/energy," but since no one can really pin down either one, the statement doesn't really say anything any more except a reiteration of the anti-spiritual attitudes of the old reductionist and positivist and other obsolete ideas.

I tend to try to keep this apart from Buddhist thinking.  The claim that Buddhism is a precursor to modern science, in many ways, is tempting but I think should be avoided.


#21    Frank Merton

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 06:03 PM

I think the Copenhagen interpretation kinda makes materialism/physicalism impossible; mind is a necessary ingredient in make the interpretation work.

However, other interpretations are out there.


#22    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 06:05 PM

View Postthird_eye, on 07 March 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

1. In order for QM to be right, we need the correctness (at the very least) of Materialism, its just a continuation of a path of reasoning. If Materialism is wrong, QM would never have been reached to its state of postulation today.

2, The mind is the greatest tool in existence because it is the source of all created tools available to man, designed through the courtesy of the mind. Thus if the mind focuses on itself through tools that it conceived, would the mind not see a mind through the limiting capacities of created tools ?

3. Or would the mind be informed of itself only from within a very much confined spectrum of detectable reality
On the note of reality ... how much of our reality is verifiable through independent means ?

1. But wave-particle duality experimentally shows that without measurement there are no particles.
2. A mind creates perceptions it isnt the creation of those perceptions. Such thinking is why many see themselves as robots.
3. No aspect of reality is verifiable through independant means because as soon as measurement stops objects cease to exist as shown in wave-particle duality. The mind cannot observe or have awareness without bringing into existance the illusions called reality.

God that was difficult writing that reply lol

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 07 March 2013 - 06:06 PM.


#23    third_eye

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 06:07 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 07 March 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

Maya dying would be a lot more than desperation.

I said 'drown' you read 'dying'

Quote

A few remarks that may or may not be pertinent.  If you see the Buddha, kill him.  Well, no -- killing people is kinda verboten.  That needs to be interpreted in context --"The Buddha is dead, so if you see him on the road, kill him" to me means don't believe what you see.

~snip


You are very correct ... you will never see Buddha on the road hence ...

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#24    J. K.

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 06:08 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 07 March 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

The big break in the Buddha's teaching, besides his view that gods, if they exist, are irrelevant to our personal destinies, is his profound break with the idea that people have souls or are selves.  The "no-self" teaching.

So in Buddhism there is no concept of self? (Am I misunderstanding that?)  How do you deal with the individual personality that one has?

One's reality is another's nightmare.

#25    Frank Merton

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 06:12 PM

I see now why you put this in a Buddhist thread.

The Buddha realized the illusory nature of the things we think we sense, and indeed even our internal things like emotions.  I am reluctant to say he went further without researching it.


#26    Frank Merton

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 06:19 PM

View PostJ. K., on 07 March 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

So in Buddhism there is no concept of self? (Am I misunderstanding that?)  How do you deal with the individual personality that one has?
The soul as Westerners tend to picture it is a sort of little man inside us that is the real "us," although of course then know that it has to be something subtler.  There is no self -- mind is not a thing -- not matter, not energy, not substantial, not physically detectable.  It is a process.

Sit quietly and "watch" your mind function.  It flits here and there, is distracted by this or that, in a loose chain of seemingly somewhat connected, somewhat random events that we call thoughts, sensations, memories, what have you.  (Don't be misled by the fact that you can "watch" it -- what is happening is that this same process is pulling up short-term memories of its state a moment or so earlier and giving them to itself).  It is a self-perpetuating process, and it has over time developed a personality, based largely on choice you have made in the past (aka its karma) plus of course inherited traits that are part of the brain that it uses as its medium.

Oh I'm exhausted, and I am not competent to teach this in detail.  I would suggest finding a book on it.


#27    third_eye

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 06:21 PM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 07 March 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

1. But wave-particle duality experimentally shows that without measurement there are no particles.
2. A mind creates perceptions it isnt the creation of those perceptions. Such thinking is why many see themselves as robots.
3. No aspect of reality is verifiable through independant means because as soon as measurement stops objects cease to exist as shown in wave-particle duality. The mind cannot observe or have awareness without bringing into existance the illusions called reality.

God that was difficult writing that reply lol

wave-particle duality is not the 'as is' as much as it is 'as much as is' that we can come up with experimentally ... work in progress so to speak

the mind creates 'nothing' but what we pick at, to the mind the activity is nothing but what it does from the day it was formed, to us it could be the flashes of perpetual ingenuity,

we can verify reality only to the extent of 'agreement'
our reality is our 'collective agreement'
the reality we agree upon is only superficially agreeable
the more one claims ones reality is discordant then the reality fractures
the illusion is there even before the fractures

so when reality is illusion, illusion is naturally also reality
the more one makes a big deal out of the meanings of the words the more one would cease to make senses of the word
because the words in itself also a collective 'agreement'
it breaks along with the cracks

Flow with it ol'chap it gets clicketty clacking after awhile :)

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#28    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 06:29 PM

If you know anything about Buddhism I think you would know that is religion at it best.
Please tap my shoulder when you found Temple of Spinoza or Temple of Sartre. I want to become their acolyte. Maybe even a monk or a priest.

Edited by the L, 07 March 2013 - 06:41 PM.

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#29    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 07:12 PM

View PostJ. K., on 07 March 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

So in Buddhism there is no concept of self? (Am I misunderstanding that?)  How do you deal with the individual personality that one has?

Ego is a result of illusion.

It arises when you see yourself as seperate from reality leading to the creation of your personality.


#30    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 07:23 PM

View Postthird_eye, on 07 March 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

wave-particle duality is not the 'as is' as much as it is 'as much as is' that we can come up with experimentally ... work in progress so to speak

the mind creates 'nothing' but what we pick at, to the mind the activity is nothing but what it does from the day it was formed, to us it could be the flashes of perpetual ingenuity,

we can verify reality only to the extent of 'agreement'
our reality is our 'collective agreement'
the reality we agree upon is only superficially agreeable
the more one claims ones reality is discordant then the reality fractures
the illusion is there even before the fractures

so when reality is illusion, illusion is naturally also reality
the more one makes a big deal out of the meanings of the words the more one would cease to make senses of the word
because the words in itself also a collective 'agreement'
it breaks along with the cracks

Flow with it ol'chap it gets clicketty clacking after awhile :)

Wave-particle duality is experimentally proven and is the basis for real effects which can be demontrated such as quantum teleportation. Your very computer is evidence that wave-particle duality is correct as is your microwave oven, mobile phone and DVD player.

Non-duality is the potential of all possibilities unified together. QM's wavefunction is the same limited in the context of the experiment being peformed. A wavefunction is written as a probability formula listing each possibility.

Now if you gain information on a probability you collapse it leaving one outcome which is the particle aspect of wave-particle duality. In essense its non-duality collapsing into duality through measurement, awareness, gaining information or whatever you want to call it.

Non-duality is not an object, It has no physical essense, it just a unification of potentials. When your mind seeks information you bring into being one of those potentials. When you stop seeking information it returns to non-duality.

In effect its you that creates the universe.

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 07 March 2013 - 07:25 PM.





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