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Frisland – not mythical but submarine?


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#31    Riaan

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Posted 11 September 2009 - 06:46 PM

Some more info on 'Frisland' - the area that I have identified as Frisland does in fact protrude above sea level - the rocky outcrop called Rockall:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockall

all of it is shown here:

http://macivercolumn...04/rockall2.jpg

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#32    Black Hound

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 07:11 PM

View PostQoais, on 09 September 2009 - 05:47 PM, said:

Here is the map that goes with Aberemelin's post:
Posted Image




Maybe the Zeno family were Freemasons or Rosicrucians - groups who had a lot of information they didn't exactly share.  

SCOTS IN AMERICA - NINETY FOUR YEARS BEFORE COLUMBUS.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 1398 Prince Henry Sinclair, his Venetian navigators Antonio and Nicola Zeno, and "three hundred Knights Templar," left Orkney in twelve ships.

They sailed to the Faroe Islands, Iceland and Greenland then on to Nova Scotia and New England.

This is the story of the "Zeno Narrative," a document that records and maps the travels and explorations of Prince Henry Sinclair with his companions to the New World, ninety four years before Christopher Columbus made his epic voyage. Prince Henry Sinclair was born in 1345, at Rosslyn Castle, and was the descendant of the Saint Clair / Gisors a Norman family that was granted the Barony of Rosslyn, Midlothian, Scotland in the 12th century.

Prince Henry in 1379 also gained the Earldom of Orkney. This Earldom included Shetland, the Faroe islands and possibly Iceland. Altogether some two hundred islands in the North Atlantic.

During the period of rapid decline of the Knights Templars' influence in Europe, many Templars travelled to Scotland where they received protection from the "Suppression

Order," that had been issued by the French king Philip "le Bel," and supported by Pope Clement V.

The "Suppression Order," resulted in the Knights Templar either organising new orders e.g. the "Hospitaliers," and the Knights of Santiago," or to seek refuge in other lands.

Protection was granted in Scotland as Robert the Bruce refused to obey the Suppression Order," for he had earlier been excommunicated by the church for the murder of John "the Red," Comyn. The Sinclair family had been Templars since 1118 and while Bruce was the Sovereign Grand Master of all Crafts and Guilds, Sir William Sinclair (Henry's father) was the Hereditary Grand Master.

Sir William perished in Spain while attempting to transport Bruce's heart to the Holy Land.

Prince Henry joined the "King Peter," crusade of 1365 and while in Venice he met the famous Zeno family. The Venetians were the victors in this campaign, however, the ports of the region were closed to them by their enemies. This could have been the reason that Antonio and Nicola joined Prince Henry. The citizens of Venice were traders, and with their ports blocked, new trade routes were eagerly sought. In 1391, Nicola sailed to Orkney, and shortly thereafter, sent word for his brother Antonio to join him.

At the age of fifty-three, Prince Henry sailed west from Orkney to Iceland, but while there was unable to take on provisions. The "Zeno Narrative," explains,


"..They all came running down to the seaside and attacked our men, with bows and arrows, so many were slain and several were wounded. Although we made signs of peace to them, it was no use.." "..When Zichmni (Sinclair) saw that he could do nothing, he realised the fleet would fall short of provisions if he were to persevere in his attempt. So he took a fair wind and sailed six days to the west, but when the wind shifted to the south-west and the sea became rough, we sailed four days with the wind aft. Then at last we discovered land. As the sea ran high and we did not know what country it was, we were afraid at first to approach it. But by God's blessing, the wind lulled, and then a great calm came on. Some of the crew then pulled ashore and soon returned with the joyful news that they had found an excellent country and a still better harbour, and we saw in the distance a great mountain that poured out smoke.."

This land is now recognised to be Nova Scotia. The Narrative continues,

"..After eight days the hundred soldiers returned and told us that they had been through the island and up the mountain. The smoke came naturally from a great fire at the bottom of a hill and there was a spring giving out a certain matter like pitch which ran into the sea, and there were great multitudes of people.."

The narrative describes a "..spring of burning pitch at the bottom of a hill.." This has been identified as Mt. Adams, which is near Stellerton.
Prince Henry and his companions befriended the peoples of the local Micmac nation and, for at least a year, explored much of the north- east coast of North America. There is evidence of this in a stone- carved effigy of a Sir James Gunn that has been dated by archaeologists as the late 14th century. This carving is located at Westford, Massachusetts.

Soon after Prince Henry returned to Orkney he was assassinated (1404). This was carried out by members of the Hanseanic League of Northern Germany, rivals for the trading areas. The travels and accomplishments were therefore temporarily concealed as Prince Henry's son (also named Henry) was arrested and held captive in England. However, Henry's daughter, Elizabeth, recounted the tale to her son John, who in turn told his in-laws. One of these in-laws was the wife of Christopher Columbus. It was not until 1558 before the "Zeno Narrative," was finally published.

The "Zeno Narrative," also included the "Zeno Map," of the North Atlantic. The eastern part of the map shows the outlines of Sweden, Norway and Denmark. Greenland (called Engronelant) is shown with permanent mountain ranges. Iceland (called Islanda) is shown between Norway and Greenland. The northern tip of Scotland is shown on the bottom right-hand corner. The diamond shaped area in the middle is thought to be floating pumice from a volcanic eruption on Iceland. At the bottom left-hand corner is the area thought to be Nova Scotia.

Several islands are also shown, they include Estland, Podalida, Estotialand, Icaria and the most famous Frisland. Why any of these islands were mistakenly drawn remains a mystery. The :Zeno Map," was first published in the first edition of Girolamo Ruscelli's "Geographia," in Venice in 1561.

Compliments of "THREE PILLARS MAPS.".

http://mastermason.c...rLodge/zeno.htm



#33    Abramelin

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 09:03 PM

I already posted this in the Oera Linda thread, but I think it fits better here:


A Frisian colony was there from the year 1040 until The Black Death killed all of them in 1350. The Frisians remained heathen a long time after the rest of the Faroe Islands were Christianised. It is said that they partly lived by piracy and they are mentioned in several Faeroese legends

http://en.wikipedia....kraberg#History



I can imagine those Frisian pirates re-named the Faroe islands, and called it 'Frisland', after their own people




More:

I found something more about Friesland/Zeno/Faroe (the English translation/summary isn't always correct, but it will do:


SUMMARY

Three things seem to indicate that Frisians have lived in the Faroe
Islands in the past.

1.
The Legends about the Frisians. In Indberetninger 6 J. C. Svabo (1746
—1824) reports that settlement traces which are said to stem from
Frisian colonists are to be found east of Sunnbøur. In cwo letters
(Landsbókasavnið, Tórshavn) J. H. Schrøter (1771—1851) writes that
the Frisians have resided in the Faroe Islands at the same time as
Irish hermits, that is to say, before the Norwegians came to the islands
in 825. J. G. Forchhammer's Dagbok (1821) has a legend according to
which the first settlers on Suðuroy were Frisian pirates at Akrabyrgi.
In Antiquarisk Tidsskrift 1849—1851 it is said (by Schrøter) that these
Frisians came to the Faroe Islands a long time after the Norwegian
landnam, and (by V. U. Hammershaimb) that after the plague (1349—
1350) the farmer at Akrabyrgi led the southern Faroemen against the
bishop of Kirkjubøur, who demanded too much money for a new
church. A. W. Brøgger, in Løgtingssøga Føroya, 1. bók (1937), supposes
that the name Frisian came in after the Norwegian invasion. Does this
mean that Frisians came to the Faroe Islands on several occasions? In
Seggjasøgur úr Sumba I (1963) P. F. Joensens thinks of the northern
Frisians as being driven away by the Danish King Abel (t 1252). He
identifies the farmer at Akrabyrgi as Hergeir, the adversary of Bishop
Erlendur (t 1308). Thus we have a chronological difference in relation
to the statement by Hammershaimb.
2.
Frislanda. The Frisian chroniclers Suffridus Petri and Martinus Hamconius
(17th century) place the island of Frislanda north of Britannia
in the period following the Germanic invasion. The name Frisland(a)
and variants appear on maps from the 14th century (by Ranulfus de
Hyggeden, Alberto Cantino, Martin Waldseemiiller, Petrus de Nobilibus
Formis, Andrea Bianco, Juan de la Cosa). In 1558 a book by Nicoló
Zeno Jr.: De i commentarii I .... / della scoprimento dell' Isole Frislanda,
was published in Venice. According to this book the Venetians
Nicolo Sr. and Antonio have visited Frislanda in the 14th century.
Zichmni, the adversary of the Norwegian king on the island, sailed
together with Antonio to the west in the wake of the Frislanda fishermen
who reached even more distant coasts, which must refer to the
American continent. A map, which is said to go back to an original
from the 14th century, is added to the book. In The Annals of I . . . . I
the brothers /..../ Zeno (1898) F. W. Lucas asserts that all this is
pure fabrication. He had not read an article by E. Beauvois in Le
Museon 1890 which connects the name of the island with the Legendsabout the Frisians. The name Frislanda for (part of) the Faroe Islands

disappeared in time in favour of the present name. Thuse arose the

theory of the drowned island of Frislanda.

3.
Frísa vísa. There is a game to which a ballad was sung about Frisian
pirates who kidnapped a girl. She is not set free until her bethrothed
has paid the ransom. The Faroese variants were written down only at
the beginning of the 19th century, the Icelandic ones at the beginning
of the 18th century. Both groups mention the Frisian nationality of the
pirates. In all other European variants, treated by Erich Pohl in Die
deutsche Volksballade von der »Losgekauften« (1934), this feature is
missing. Probably the original Danish model for the Faroese and Icelandic
variants had this name, because in 1370 young girls were kidnapped
by pirates in the Frisian Westerhever, which belonged to Denmark
at that time. The oldest Icelandic variants place the event in
Denmark, because they call the girl a 'Danamasr'. Instead of the route
Denmark—the Faroe Islands—Iceland (Pohl), the ballad might as
well have followed the route Denmark—Iceland—the Faroe Islands,
or two routes independent of each other: Denmark—Iceland and Den-
mark—the Faroe Islands. Frísavísa in itself does not necessarily refer
to Frisian settlement in the Faroe Islands, but it becomes interesting
in connection with the above points 1 and 2.


http://sumba.skysite.dk/?side=99079


#34    Abramelin

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 11:12 PM

This is Friesland/Frislant/Frieslant Island on Zeno's map (here a colored image made by Mercator, based on Zeno's map and account):

Posted Image


This is a list of the villages on the Faroe islands: http://en.wikipedia....e_Faroe_Islands
Or:
http://www.faroeisla...dvagurIndex.htm

And this is a list of the villages on the Friesland Island, according to Zeno:

cabaru, banar, bondendea, frislant, godmee, ocibar, sorand, venai, rane, campa, duila, spirige, streme, dossais/doffais, ibim, rouea, ledeue, sanestol/saneftol, monaco.


And the similarities between the two lists (take into account it were Italian ears listening to someone pronouncing Old Norse):


ocibar = Oyrarbakki
sorand =  Svínáir
banar = Bøur
rane = Runavík
cabaru = Kirkjubøur
godmee = Gøtueiði
streme = Streymnes
duila = Dalur
ledeue = Langasandur
monaco = Morskranes
spirige = Sørvágur
sanestol/sanefto = Saltnes
dossais/doffais = Toftir
venai = Svínoy
ibim = Lambi
.

Edited by Abramelin, 22 July 2010 - 11:33 PM.


#35    Abramelin

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 01:30 AM

I found something of a list of placenames, rivers, and so on Friesland island (apparantly based on a map by Ortelius, but I think also on the orginal Zeno letters):



http://www.orteliusm...ort160.html  A2

Oceans, Seas, Bays, Gulfs, Straights, Capes:

Aneses
Angra di Ioã|Maio
Baia dus pra:|cel.
C Spagia
C.Bouct
C.Cunala
C.de terre|ferme
Golfa nor|da
Hekelfort|prom
R de la buena:|uenta
R.Neuado
Snauel|iokel.
Sudero golfo


Placenames

Ande|fort
Aqua
Bonden:|dea portus
Cabaru
Campa
Doffais
Godmec
Iokel
Ocibar
Ran
Sanestol
Sorand
Westra|bord



Mountain ranges, mountains, dunes

Witsarc|mons



Islands

Drogeo.Dus|Cirnes Gallis
Foglaster.
Fris:|land
I Hofe (? looks like Flofo on the map I posted)
Icarin
Ledeue
Monaco
Spurige
Venai.
Y.dus|Barrei|uras

they forgot Streme, and Ibim/Ibini (or Ibiiu?)



==============================

For completeness, here's a summary of those Zeno Letters:



The letters are divided into two parts. The first set contains letters from Nicolò to Antonio. The second are letters from Antonio to their brother Carlo.

The first letters (from Nicolò to Antonio) tell how Nicolò set off in 1380 on a voyage from Venice to England and Flanders. Evidence exists that such a voyage took place, and that Nicolò returned to Venice around 1385.[1]

In the letters, Nicolò describes being stranded on an island between Great Britain and Iceland called Frislanda, which is described as being larger in size than Ireland.

By chance Nicolò is rescued by Zichmni, who is described as prince who owned some islands called Porlanda off the southern coast of Frislanda, and who ruled the duchy of Sorant, or Sorand, south-east of Frislanda.

Nicolò invites Antonio to come to Frislanda with him, which he does, and stays for fourteen years. Under Zichmni's direction, Antonio attacks "Estlanda", which is ostensibly the Shetland Islands, as indicated by the similarity of place names mentioned in the letters.

Zichmni then attempts to attack Iceland. After finding it too well defended, he attacks seven islands along its eastern side: Bres, Talas, Broas, Iscant, Trans, Mimant, Damberc. All of these islands are fictitious.

Zichmni then builds a fort on Bres and leaves Nicolò in charge of it. Nicolò makes a voyage to Greenland and finds a monastery with central heating. He then returns to Frislanda, where he dies, having been in the north for four or five years.

Soon after Nicolò's death, Zichmni receives word that a group of lost fisherman from Frislanda have returned after an absence of over twenty-five years. The fisherman describe having made landfall in the far west in unknown countries called Estotiland and Drogeo. The fishermen describe having encountered strange animals as well as cannibals, from whom they escaped only after teaching the cannibals how to fish.

Inspired by the tales of the fishermen, Zichmni undertakes a voyage to the west with Antonio in charge of his fleet. To the west of Frislanda (see Zeno Map), they encounter a large island called Icaria, which does not exist.

According to the letters, the inhabitants of Icaria greet them before they can make landfall. Only one person among the Icarians is able to speak a language that Zichmni understands. The inhabitants state that visitors to the island are not welcome and that they will defend the island to the last man if need be. Zichmni sails along the island looking for a place to make landfall, but the inhabitants chase him and Zichmni abandons the effort.

Sailing west, they make landfall at a promontory called Trin on the southern tip of "Engrouelanda". Zichmni likes the climate and the soil, but his crew find it inhospitable. The sailors return home with Antonio, while Zichmni stays on to explore the area and build a town.


http://en.wikipedia....ers#The_letters
http://www.cabinetma...ues/18/wood.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zichmni


#36    Riaan

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 03:27 PM

Very interesting, but Mercator clearly identifies Frisland as distinct from the Faroe islands - see B & D on the Merctor map shown at the beginning of this thread. D indeed corresponds to location D on the bathymetry map shown below Mercator's.

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#37    Abramelin

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 04:19 PM

View PostRiaan, on 23 July 2010 - 03:27 PM, said:

Very interesting, but Mercator clearly identifies Frisland as distinct from the Faroe islands - see B & D on the Merctor map shown at the beginning of this thread. D indeed corresponds to location D on the bathymetry map shown below Mercator's.

I only used Mercator's depiction of Friesland Island because it's the most sharp picture.

But you should not forget that his Friesland is not the first version: if we must believe what's been said, he came a century later than the Zeno brothers with their map.

So the idea is that he tried to correct it by drawing the Faroe Islands where they were known to be, and then also added Friesland Island.

Personally I think the mystery is solved; there are just too many clues that Frisians (the pirates, but also the early historians) had a great impact on the naming of "Friesland Island" which was none other than the Farao Islands.


#38    Riaan

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 04:30 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 23 July 2010 - 04:19 PM, said:

I only used Mercator's depiction of Friesland Island because it's the most sharp picture.

But you should not forget that his Friesland is not the first version: if we must believe what's been said, he came a century later than the Zeno brothers with their map.

So the idea is that he tried to correct it by drawing the Faroe Islands where they were known to be, and then also added Friesland Island.

Personally I think the mystery is solved; there are just too many clues that Frisians (the pirates, but also the early historians) had a great impact on the naming of "Friesland Island" which was none other than the Farao Islands.
Either that, or the sea level was significantly lower than it is today. Nobody has as yet given any meaningful comment on the mid-Atlantic islands between South America and Africa I showed here.

Can it all be coincidence?

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#39    Abramelin

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 04:42 PM

View PostRiaan, on 23 July 2010 - 04:30 PM, said:

Either that, or the sea level was significantly lower than it is today. Nobody has as yet given any meaningful comment on the mid-Atlantic islands between South America and Africa I showed here.

Can it all be coincidence?

You mean these:

Posted Image


The way Friesland Island was being depicted was based on nothing but the best interpretation of what people 'remembered' or heard. I don't think the fact that Friesland Island was a single island has anything to do with lower sea levels; when that happened, the Faroe were near thick ice sheets and probably even covered by it.


Posted Image

Edited by Abramelin, 23 July 2010 - 04:53 PM.


#40    WolvenHeart7

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 05:13 PM

Those weird landmasses do appear to have been submerged ones, but to speculate that I would have to close off my mind and not think of what else it could be. I think it was true when star positions and clouds might have put them off.
Frisland.. I'm not sure about that one.. :wacko:

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#41    Abramelin

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 05:28 PM

View PostAliveInDeath, on 23 July 2010 - 05:13 PM, said:

Those weird landmasses do appear to have been submerged ones, but to speculate that I would have to close off my mind and not think of what else it could be. I think it was true when star positions and clouds might have put them off.
Frisland.. I'm not sure about that one.. :wacko:

Here's what the North Atlantic may have looked like, at the height of the last ice age:

Posted Image

You will see that the Faroe Islands/Friesland Island occupies a larger area, but so does the UK/Ireland area.

On the second page of this thread Alewyn mentions rivers visible on some map of the sea floor around the Faroe Islands.

I haven't seen that map, but I would not be surprized that what he saw on that map were valleys created by glaciers.


#42    Riaan

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 05:35 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 23 July 2010 - 04:42 PM, said:

You mean these:

Posted Image


The way Friesland Island was being depicted was based on nothing but the best interpretation of what people 'remembered' or heard. I don't think the fact that Friesland Island was a single island has anything to do with lower sea levels; when that happened, the Faroe were near thick ice sheets and probably even covered by it.


Posted Image
Good point, but the southern-most island cluster you identify as the Falkland Islands are too far north and east to be the Falklands - check the longitude and latitude relative to Africa. It does appear to match the submerged 'island' as I have encircled on the bathymetry map. The Falklands would have been part of Terra Australis in the Schoner map (green).

And what do you think of the islands off the east coast of Brazil (A to E on the first image)?

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#43    Abramelin

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 07:42 PM

View PostRiaan, on 23 July 2010 - 05:35 PM, said:

Good point, but the southern-most island cluster you identify as the Falkland Islands are too far north and east to be the Falklands - check the longitude and latitude relative to Africa. It does appear to match the submerged 'island' as I have encircled on the bathymetry map. The Falklands would have been part of Terra Australis in the Schoner map (green).

And what do you think of the islands off the east coast of Brazil (A to E on the first image)?

It was just the first map I encountered showing islands in the South Atlantic.

You mention 'bathymetric map', but you will have to post a lot more accurate one. I have searched on many sites, but none are accurate enough. And that string of islands off the east coast of Brazil, isn't that just a string of submerged coral islands/ atols? You know, undersea volcanoes that rise up and down through history (and sometimes in a really very short time)?

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

And even this site doesn't show what you showed on your maps (it's where I got the 2 last pics from):

http://ibis.grdl.noa...bathy/bathD.pl/

.

Edited by Abramelin, 23 July 2010 - 08:06 PM.


#44    Riaan

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 08:46 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 23 July 2010 - 07:42 PM, said:

And that string of islands off the east coast of Brazil, isn't that just a string of submerged coral islands/ atols? You know, undersea volcanoes that rise up and down through history (and sometimes in a really very short time)?

Yes, you could be right. I have actually spent quite some time analyzing the islands in the Caribbean (see here), and corresponded with a couple of university professors. They indicated that many of the islands in the Caribbean came and went with time, often being no more than banks of sand.

I have stated somewhere that one will only be able to assess whether the islands off the east coast of Brazil could have been above water if one can get hold of more accurate data. I used the NASA bathymetry map, but as is the case with yours, the depth resolution is no fine enough to tell. The fact that the two islands at E are indeed visible above water suggests that the others can't be too deep. However, if they are say 100m down, it would change the picture quite dramatically.

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#45    Abramelin

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 09:02 PM

View PostRiaan, on 23 July 2010 - 08:46 PM, said:

Yes, you could be right. I have actually spent quite some time analyzing the islands in the Caribbean (see here), and corresponded with a couple of university professors. They indicated that many of the islands in the Caribbean came and went with time, often being no more than banks of sand.

I have stated somewhere that one will only be able to assess whether the islands off the east coast of Brazil could have been above water if one can get hold of more accurate data. I used the NASA bathymetry map, but as is the case with yours, the depth resolution is no fine enough to tell. The fact that the two islands at E are indeed visible above water suggests that the others can't be too deep. However, if they are say 100m down, it would change the picture quite dramatically.

I remember from a very long time ago that I read somewhere that volcanic islands can rise above sealevel and sink back into the depths of the ocean within a couple of days. And I am talking about hundreds of meters (near Iceland and the Azores).

Maybe I am wrong, but from your posts and threads I get the idea that those maps showing vanished islands must be very old. But in reality they maybe show nothing but a temporary situation in recent times.

Btw, I have a request to you: if you have access to accurate bathymetric maps (and I guess you do, despite what you suggested earlier) can you please post an accurate bathymetric map of the area around and with the Faroe Islands?

I want to see for myself what Alewyn was talking about on page 2 of the Oera Linda thread (he saw river valleys. I think these valleys were created by glaciers).





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