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#391    SlimJim22

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 09:14 PM

Yeah I'm probably off on Finland, don't they share genes with the mongoloid race or something? I was only going on it being full of lakes and that they would have wanted a similar habitat. That is a pretty weak argument now I think about it.

Humberside or norfolk would be a thought but I can't remember the name of the tribe that was based around St Albans and the east coast. I'll try and come up with a name. If they were a coastal people it makes sense they would want to stay in the vicinity rather than move inland too much but you never know.

I like Hyperborea as a myth but according to Velikovsky it was the comet as I mentioned before. He also calculated a 3,600 year orbit so you could be looking at 1,600 and then 5,200. That is just as an example and I admit that it is farfetched but it underlines the possibility of a recurring event. The fire and gravel, flooding, even the ten plagues could, with a bit of imagination lead to the possibility of a comet. Pindar is the main witer on Hyperborea and I haven't read much but I think he was from Thrace which may have introduced northen myths into the mythology.  What I hold onto, in terms of oral traditions is shamanism. The evidence is there to suggest there is a connection between all shamanic culture and with just a bit more imagination I conclude that major cataclysmic events may be engrained on the collective unconscious or even as genetic memory. Pretty crazy when you think about it but it is not inconcievable that through oral traditions, combined with shamanic practices the memories could be preserved and elaborated on into myth. Serpents could even correspind to the tail of a comet. It might be worth reading a little Velikovsky and see if anything jumps out.

"I belive no thing, I follow the Law of One. I am a Man-O'-Sion under construction."

#392    SlimJim22

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 09:36 PM

Nice link  :yes:

http://shadowlight.gydja.com/surt.html

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#393    Swede

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 10:35 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 28 April 2010 - 07:49 PM, said:

Thanks Swede.

I found something about this Echo-Hawk:

Ancient history in the New World : Integrating oral traditions and the archaeological record in deep time = Histoire ancienne dans le Mouveau Monde : Intégration des traditions orales et des données archéologiques des temps anciens
Auteur(s) / Author(s)
ECHO-HAWK R. C. (1) ;

Oral traditions provide a viable source of information about historical settings dating back far in time-a fact that has gained increasing recognition in North America, although archaeologists and other scholars typically give minimal attention to this data. The Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act (NAGPRA) lists oral traditions as a source of evidence that must be considered by museum and federal agency officials in making findings of cultural affiliation between ancient and modern Native American communities. This paper sets forth the NAGPRA standards and presents an analytical framework under which scholars can proceed with evaluation of historicity in verbal records of the ancient past. The author focuses on an Arikara narrative and argues that it presents a summary of human history in the New World from initial settlement up to the founding of the Arikara homeland in North Dakota Oral records and the archaeological record describe a shared past and should be viewed as natural partners in post-NAGPRA America. In conceptual terms, scholarship on the past should revisit the bibliocentric assumptions of prehistory, and pursue, instead, the study of ancient American history -an approach that treats oral documents as respectable siblings of written documents.


http://cat.inist.fr/...&cpsidt=1557457



Found something else too:

http://nativehistory...d.com/id15.html

Abe - I hope we're not leading your topic astray, but heck, it is your project, so just let me know if we are going too far afield!

Regarding Grondine's comments, I am rather unsure as to his point. I am familiar with his citations and actually have some of them in my library. I find his connection to the Oneota culture to be somewhat flawed. The Oneota culture arose circa 1,000-1,200 AD in the upper Mississippi River drainage, with the earliest sites being in Wisconsin and extreme eastern Minnesota. This culture was a blend of Late Woodland peoples and Middle Mississippian influences. The culture lasted until early Euro (French) contact in the latter 1600's. It would also appear that at least some elements of the Oneota culture were of the Chiwere/Siouan and Siouan language groups. This is in contrast to the Algonquin language group of the Lenape. When one combines the above with time period/geographical distribution of the Lenape, I am at a loss to grasp his contentions.

The nativehistory site, while "interesting", may not be considered to be terribly accurate from the technical end. There are numerous inaccuracies that result from such factors as citing Cremo & Thompson, Deloria, etc.

As to Echo-Hawk - It would be most helpful if you could access the entire paper, as the abstract does not do the work justice. While Echo-Hawk does advocate for the understanding and utilization of oral traditions in archaeological interpretation, he is also quite realistic about the inherent flaws in oral traditions and lays out some quite succinct analytical criteria in this regard. To quote;

"My principle of memorability predicts that the transmission of historical oral traditions over long periods of time will inevitably introduce changes to texts involving one or more of the following factors: 1)elisions, omissions, or conflations will most likely serve to enhance the entertainment value or memorable quality of historical information; 2) the most memorable elements of a historical narrative may be emphasized at the expense of complex, detailed data; 3) data and stories that are viewed as important documents may incorporate elements that begin as speculative interpretation and end up as elements that enhance the entertainment value and color of the data/story; 4) only those historical stories that are seen as inherently valuable texts and display elements making the texts more memorable will survive long transmission periods; and 5) information about the ancient past will more likely persist if it is encrusted with nonhistorical cultural meanings and narrative elements that are specific to transmitting societies". (Echo-Hawk:272-273)

"Scholars must stand their ground, however, when they are urged to accept origin stories as literal history. The intellectual legacy of academic scholarship requires that every presumption of historicity be subjected to critical examination no matter how much it may anchor any specific cultural pattern". (Echo-Hawk:287).

A complete read of this paper along with Mason's somewhat more critical analysis may provide a useful platform from which to evaluate various legends, tales and oral traditions, and I think that you would find them to be most interesting.

.


#394    Abramelin

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 10:52 PM

View PostSwede, on 28 April 2010 - 10:35 PM, said:

Abe - I hope we're not leading your topic astray, but heck, it is your project, so just let me know if we are going too far afield!

Regarding Grondine's comments, I am rather unsure as to his point. I am familiar with his citations and actually have some of them in my library. I find his connection to the Oneota culture to be somewhat flawed. The Oneota culture arose circa 1,000-1,200 AD in the upper Mississippi River drainage, with the earliest sites being in Wisconsin and extreme eastern Minnesota. This culture was a blend of Late Woodland peoples and Middle Mississippian influences. The culture lasted until early Euro (French) contact in the latter 1600's. It would also appear that at least some elements of the Oneota culture were of the Chiwere/Siouan and Siouan language groups. This is in contrast to the Algonquin language group of the Lenape. When one combines the above with time period/geographical distribution of the Lenape, I am at a loss to grasp his contentions.

The nativehistory site, while "interesting", may not be considered to be terribly accurate from the technical end. There are numerous inaccuracies that result from such factors as citing Cremo & Thompson, Deloria, etc.

As to Echo-Hawk - It would be most helpful if you could access the entire paper, as the abstract does not do the work justice. While Echo-Hawk does advocate for the understanding and utilization of oral traditions in archaeological interpretation, he is also quite realistic about the inherent flaws in oral traditions and lays out some quite succinct analytical criteria in this regard. To quote;

"My principle of memorability predicts that the transmission of historical oral traditions over long periods of time will inevitably introduce changes to texts involving one or more of the following factors: 1)elisions, omissions, or conflations will most likely serve to enhance the entertainment value or memorable quality of historical information; 2) the most memorable elements of a historical narrative may be emphasized at the expense of complex, detailed data; 3) data and stories that are viewed as important documents may incorporate elements that begin as speculative interpretation and end up as elements that enhance the entertainment value and color of the data/story; 4) only those historical stories that are seen as inherently valuable texts and display elements making the texts more memorable will survive long transmission periods; and 5) information about the ancient past will more likely persist if it is encrusted with nonhistorical cultural meanings and narrative elements that are specific to transmitting societies". (Echo-Hawk:272-273)

"Scholars must stand their ground, however, when they are urged to accept origin stories as literal history. The intellectual legacy of academic scholarship requires that every presumption of historicity be subjected to critical examination no matter how much it may anchor any specific cultural pattern". (Echo-Hawk:287).

A complete read of this paper along with Mason's somewhat more critical analysis may provide a useful platform from which to evaluate various legends, tales and oral traditions, and I think that you would find them to be most interesting.

.

Well, this is about oral traditions, Swede, and how well - or not - they are able to preserve facts.

I still think that every myth has a core of truth of actual facts, but that through time things get embellished, exaggerated, and even mixed with other, and maybe later legends of other people arriving in the area. And I guess from your quote of Echo-Hawk's paper, he agrees with what I said for a large part.

And no, I didn't find his paper online.

Btw, I don't want to delve too deep into the Walam Olum, but it dererves it's own thread.


#395    Abramelin

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 12:49 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 28 April 2010 - 09:14 PM, said:

Yeah I'm probably off on Finland, don't they share genes with the mongoloid race or something? I was only going on it being full of lakes and that they would have wanted a similar habitat. That is a pretty weak argument now I think about it.

Humberside or norfolk would be a thought but I can't remember the name of the tribe that was based around St Albans and the east coast. I'll try and come up with a name. If they were a coastal people it makes sense they would want to stay in the vicinity rather than move inland too much but you never know.

I like Hyperborea as a myth but according to Velikovsky it was the comet as I mentioned before. He also calculated a 3,600 year orbit so you could be looking at 1,600 and then 5,200. That is just as an example and I admit that it is farfetched but it underlines the possibility of a recurring event. The fire and gravel, flooding, even the ten plagues could, with a bit of imagination lead to the possibility of a comet. Pindar is the main witer on Hyperborea and I haven't read much but I think he was from Thrace which may have introduced northen myths into the mythology.  What I hold onto, in terms of oral traditions is shamanism. The evidence is there to suggest there is a connection between all shamanic culture and with just a bit more imagination I conclude that major cataclysmic events may be engrained on the collective unconscious or even as genetic memory. Pretty crazy when you think about it but it is not inconcievable that through oral traditions, combined with shamanic practices the memories could be preserved and elaborated on into myth. Serpents could even correspind to the tail of a comet. It might be worth reading a little Velikovsky and see if anything jumps out.


Jim, I really don't want to go too much into genetics (of the Saami and Fins in this case) because I know too little about it.

The tribe living in Norfolk was probably the Iceni, but they must have been much more recent arrivals:


Norfolk was settled in pre-Roman times, with neolithic camps along the higher land in the west where flints could be quarried. A Brythonic tribe, the Iceni, inhabited the county from the first century BC, to the end of the first century (AD). The Iceni revolted against the Roman invasion in 47 AD, and again in 60 AD led by Boudica. The crushing of the second rebellion opened the county to the Romans. During the Roman era roads and ports were constructed throughout the county and farming took place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norfolk


And maybe it's a better idea to look into the myths Velikovsky and Donnelly used for their theories than to use their interpretations of these legends. They based their interpretations on what was known around the time they wrote their books, and we know a lot more now.


Hyperborea appears to be more like a mythical land north of the polar circle because of it being characterized by having daylight 24/7 for much of the year.

Edited by Abramelin, 29 April 2010 - 01:10 PM.


#396    SlimJim22

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 02:16 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 29 April 2010 - 12:49 PM, said:

Jim, I really don't want to go too much into genetics (of the Saami and Fins in this case) because I know too little about it.

The tribe living in Norfolk was probably the Iceni, but they must have been much more recent arrivals:


Norfolk was settled in pre-Roman times, with neolithic camps along the higher land in the west where flints could be quarried. A Brythonic tribe, the Iceni, inhabited the county from the first century BC, to the end of the first century (AD). The Iceni revolted against the Roman invasion in 47 AD, and again in 60 AD led by Boudica. The crushing of the second rebellion opened the county to the Romans. During the Roman era roads and ports were constructed throughout the county and farming took place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norfolk


And maybe it's a better idea to look into the myths Velikovsky and Donnelly used for their theories than to use their interpretations of these legends. They based their interpretations on what was known around the time they wrote their books, and we know a lot more now.


Hyperborea appears to be more like a mythical land north of the polar circle because of it being characterized by having daylight 24/7 for much of the year.

Agreed on all counts. Boudica and Iceni, them be the ones. Cheers! There is a great deal of info on the catastrophism link so I'll check through. So much depends on what can be found in the archeological record to support anything from myth. If a comet is to blame then it may well have looked different depending on the latitude. Maybe it looked more like a spiral or suastika in the northern hemisphere but more like a tree or serpent the further south they went. Obviosuly that is just wild speculation but I'm thinking that for such large events as Black sea creation for example, some fairly large stimulus or additional variable would be required. I just can't see tectonic shifts being solely to blame but I will probably be told otherwise.

"I belive no thing, I follow the Law of One. I am a Man-O'-Sion under construction."

#397    Abramelin

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 03:20 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 29 April 2010 - 02:16 PM, said:

Agreed on all counts. Boudica and Iceni, them be the ones. Cheers! There is a great deal of info on the catastrophism link so I'll check through. So much depends on what can be found in the archeological record to support anything from myth. If a comet is to blame then it may well have looked different depending on the latitude. Maybe it looked more like a spiral or suastika in the northern hemisphere but more like a tree or serpent the further south they went. Obviosuly that is just wild speculation but I'm thinking that for such large events as Black sea creation for example, some fairly large stimulus or additional variable would be required. I just can't see tectonic shifts being solely to blame but I will probably be told otherwise.

The next picture is a comet outgassing sideways while revolving around its axis, plus its usual tail:

Posted Image

If it was impressive enough to be viewed the world over, then it must have been a huge appearence in the heavens back then, and I assume it must have looked like concentric circles or spirals with a tail from center to far past the spirals/circles. And that image would be more or less the same all over the earth.

But from what I found online, most of the rock-art depicting concentric circles/spirals/circular labyrinths is from around the North Sea, mainly Britain, Scotland, Ireland and Wales (and also Norway).

If a comet with all that visual spectacle did indeed plunge somewhere in what is now the North Sea, 6100 BC or earlier, together with all the disaster that followed it, you'd expect this image to be imprinted in the memory of those people who witnessed it, and yes, maybe even incorporated in shamanic ceremonies.

Posted Image

All we now have to do is find evidence of such a comet hitting the earth in prehistory or else we are just having a nice phantasy here.


#398    SlimJim22

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 03:42 PM

The way I imagine it is not a direct collision but a near passage and the gravity between the two causes meteorites that could have rained down and caused chaos but the actual body remains in its orbit but maybe loses some mass on each passage. Maybe there are even smaller asteroids in orbit around the main body that get pulled down to Earth. Then there is any electric relationship between Earth and the comet. If they had opposite charges would they have been attracted and would there have been a great deal of lightning and stuff. I have a colourful imagination clearly but there are so many mad things in myth that make me thing hang on are they serious.

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#399    Abramelin

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 04:49 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 29 April 2010 - 03:42 PM, said:

The way I imagine it is not a direct collision but a near passage and the gravity between the two causes meteorites that could have rained down and caused chaos but the actual body remains in its orbit but maybe loses some mass on each passage. Maybe there are even smaller asteroids in orbit around the main body that get pulled down to Earth. Then there is any electric relationship between Earth and the comet. If they had opposite charges would they have been attracted and would there have been a great deal of lightning and stuff. I have a colourful imagination clearly but there are so many mad things in myth that make me thing hang on are they serious.


The impression I get when watching these rock carvings is that someone went completely nuts, and kept carving untill his drug-indused buzz ran out, or that many people felt they had to repeat the same carving depicting concentric circles, or that someone saw a multidtude of these comets in the skies. Some actually depict a (comet-) spiral, accompanied by simple holes, maybe those smaller asteriods you mentioned.

Google 'rock-art' together with 'circles'.

Check this picture:
http://lh6.ggpht.com...ley crag[1].jpg

The cup and ring marks you see in the photographs are between 7.000 and 5,000 years old. They were probably carved by Mesolithic hunter-gatherers and early Neolithic farmers.

The meaning of these mysterious symbols is lost in the deep past. We have no way of knowing why they were carved and the significance of the designs and motifs is irretrievable, enigmatic and puzzling.  Theories and conjectures abound, but the truth is permanently elusive.

Whatever their original purpose, what is clear is the power of these carvings in the landscape. Many are set on high ground overlooking river valleys, carved into exposed rock outcrops in what must have been significant vantage points.  

The repeating patterns of concentric circles make for a striking artform. Looking at these carvings in situ you have the strongest  sense that the circle is somehow deeply embedded within human psyche and culture.

http://davesdistrict...rthumbrian.html






#400    Abramelin

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 05:06 PM

Maybe we need a Jungian psycho-analyst here, but I think it's quite interesting that circular labyrinths, called 'Troy Towns' in England - looking very similar to earlier depictings of these concentric circles with a 'tail' - always deal with death in the center.

And not only in England, also in the Baltic, in America (the Hopi) and , as we all know, in Greece (Minotaurus/Theseus/Ariadne).

The general idea is this: you follow the spiral path, and eventually you end up in the center, which is death or the afterlife or the 'other world'.

To make it more clear: the centre would be the comet itself, like I said before. The comet that (may have) hit earth. specifically the North Sea. The spirals/concentric circles would have been a spectacle for maybe months, months before the comet hit earth.

These circular labyrinths were created long after those cup-and-circle rock patterns were carved out in rock.

No doubt the original meaning was lost over time, but the main feature was this: a depiction of death and destruction, death at the center (the comet itself).

If I drink another bottle, I will come up with even more spaced-out ideas, LOL.

I know Cormac hates this, but I would not mind if he - or anyone else - clubs this fantasy to smithereens

If not, beware, hahaha !!


.

Edited by Abramelin, 29 April 2010 - 05:22 PM.


#401    SlimJim22

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 05:10 PM

Most definitely. When I was in uni, I didn't know why but all I ever doodled was spirals and the odd pyramid. It was only a couple of years later that I got into researching spirals, shamanism and all that but it was all very much connected for me.

Those pictures are awesome. It really does look like some kind of celestial drama being played out. Because we, as a society have not witnessed such an event it is hard to picture how it could happen or what the effects could be. The images looked like objects creating ripples in space or the aether. They would probably have mini atmospheres of their own consisting of dust and gas and I assume they would have a frozen core but being exerting immense heat. Crazy stuff but nice find.

The one thing we do know is that it didn't wipe us out. We have never experienced a mass extinction to our knowledge so best to assume that it causes mass disturbances, some areas hit harder than others and it could change the geography in a short time. This kinda sounds like a non religious reason behind Exodus not too mention all the flood myths.

The other thing I am thinking is that in a strange kind of way the event might actually raise consciousness a notch. It would literally feel like the rapture or something for the people involved and under such intense circumstances I bet the brain would do strange things. The combination of all the new EMF and all could allow for altered states, maybe this is another reason for the spiral in our consciousness and why so many mysteries relate to rebirth like the Phoenix or the Winged Sun disk. Serpents aswell maybe but is it possible that shamnism and the mystery schools had all these symbols but they didn't know anymore than we do what they meant. Only that they were the symbols passed down through oral traditions and shamnic experience.

I hope this is not derailing the thread but the location and frequency of the spirals would hint at a doggerland connection. New grange and Stonehenge being started sometime after supports the idea that consciousness was on the rise but impossible to prove that it wasn't a natural evolution of consciousness resulting from productivity and farming. I'm spent.

"I belive no thing, I follow the Law of One. I am a Man-O'-Sion under construction."

#402    Abramelin

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 05:33 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 29 April 2010 - 05:10 PM, said:

Most definitely. When I was in uni, I didn't know why but all I ever doodled was spirals and the odd pyramid. It was only a couple of years later that I got into researching spirals, shamanism and all that but it was all very much connected for me.

Those pictures are awesome. It really does look like some kind of celestial drama being played out. Because we, as a society have not witnessed such an event it is hard to picture how it could happen or what the effects could be. The images looked like objects creating ripples in space or the aether. They would probably have mini atmospheres of their own consisting of dust and gas and I assume they would have a frozen core but being exerting immense heat. Crazy stuff but nice find.

The one thing we do know is that it didn't wipe us out. We have never experienced a mass extinction to our knowledge so best to assume that it causes mass disturbances, some areas hit harder than others and it could change the geography in a short time. This kinda sounds like a non religious reason behind Exodus not too mention all the flood myths.

The other thing I am thinking is that in a strange kind of way the event might actually raise consciousness a notch. It would literally feel like the rapture or something for the people involved and under such intense circumstances I bet the brain would do strange things. The combination of all the new EMF and all could allow for altered states, maybe this is another reason for the spiral in our consciousness and why so many mysteries relate to rebirth like the Phoenix or the Winged Sun disk. Serpents aswell maybe but is it possible that shamnism and the mystery schools had all these symbols but they didn't know anymore than we do what they meant. Only that they were the symbols passed down through oral traditions and shamnic experience.

I hope this is not derailing the thread but the location and frequency of the spirals would hint at a doggerland connection. New grange and Stonehenge being started sometime after supports the idea that consciousness was on the rise but impossible to prove that it wasn't a natural evolution of consciousness resulting from productivity and farming. I'm spent.


> What is 'uni'??

> It didn't whipe all of our ancestors out, but it maybe have whiped out the people living on Doggerland.

> It sure must have raised 'consciousness' : watch out for the skies. Hence those astronomical alignments.

Scientists say they were meant to predict seasons, time to plant and sow and all that. Why would farmers need that, eh? My own father was the son of a farmer. My father and his father were socalled 'simple' people, no formal education at all or just meager education, but they were not crazy people: they knew how to watch the signs of nature to know when to plant and to sow. They didn't need megalithic structures built with stones weiging 10 tons or more, jeesh. And my grandpa was almost illiterate, he couldn't read a calendar if he wanted to, LOL.

These scientific theories about megalithic alignments are put forward by Ivory Castle city slickers with no knowledge of nature whatsoever.

Nah, my idea is that they wanted to be able to predict when s*** was about to happen again. And those late arrivals, the 'farmers', heard the stories from the hunter-gatherers, but did not really understand what the hell they were talking about, but became scared enough anyway.

The stories were  apparently impressive enough to force these farmers to create structures like Stonehenge, Seahenge, and similar structures in Germany (their layout looks a lot like these rock carvings; see my earlier posts).


.

Edited by Abramelin, 29 April 2010 - 06:31 PM.


#403    Abramelin

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 06:49 PM

I have lived with these 'hunter-gatherers' for months in the Amazon basin (near Iquitos, Peru)

Let me tell you: yeah, they have weird beliefs, yeah, they think the spirits cause them harm when they dont act according to what they think the spirits want..

But hey, for the rest, if I should ever want to travel through the Amazon jungle again (and having the money to do that), I will choose for these guys. They really KNOW what they are talking about.

And they don't need huge circles of stones to tell them when to do what.


EDIT:

Just for the record: they treated me like I was a king, but also like I was nothing but a toddler.

Meaning: they knew I had knowlegde they hadn't, but they also knew I behaved like a baby. Well, that is what they told me, using their 100 words of Castilliano (=Spanish for you morons).


The women, even the younger ones, loved me for my blue eyes.

OK, I am getting off topic.

Edited by Abramelin, 29 April 2010 - 07:11 PM.


#404    cormac mac airt

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 08:21 PM

Quote

What is 'uni'??

Short for "university". Don't worry, you'll get used to British terminologies and slang after awhile.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#405    Abramelin

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  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 29 April 2010 - 11:22 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 29 April 2010 - 08:21 PM, said:

Short for "university". Don't worry, you'll get used to British terminologies and slang after awhile.

cormac

I aasumed I was used to British terminologies, living next door as a Dutch guy, but I had never heard of 'unis'.

What is your opinion about what was said before??

That is what I want to know....

I do know you hate ideas based on nothing but assumptions, but my assumptions are based on  finds, not dreams like Sitchin's or Von Daniken's, ok?

Hmm...ok, maybe the comet thing is a bit off, but I think my ideas about that are quite original. Up to now no one had any idea what those petroglyphs were all about.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 29 April 2010 - 11:46 PM.





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