11638 replies to this topic

[Otharus]

Alewyn, on 19 February 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

Some thoughts on the Gola from Sidon in Phoenicia

Thanks for that Alewyn, and good that you're still around.

I wish you a blessed sunday.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 19 February 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

I like difficult, that's why I chose to study the OLB.

This idea, that started this morning, will lead to a breakthrough.

Give me some time to make my point.

OK.

But GOLA (refugees, exciles) or GOLAN or even GALILEE (south of the Golan Heights) would fit better than GOLEM.

What I did not read here is, that if all of this is true, then the Gauls are the descendants of Jews and/or Phoenicians, and the Gauls would probably have a religion that was similar. I think some will start thinking about Ba'al (Semitic god) and Bel (Celtic god)...

==

Galilee

According to the Bible, Solomon rewarded Hiram I for certain services by giving him the gift of an upland plain among the mountains of Naphtali. Hiram called it "the land of Cabul". The region takes its name from the Hebrew galil, "district", "circle", a noun which, in the construct state, requires a genitival noun. Hence the Biblical "Galilee of the Nations", Hebrew"galil goyim"(Isaiah 9:1). The "nations" would have been the foreigners who came to settle there, or who had been forcibly deported there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galilee





Golan [EBD]
exile, a city of Bashan (Deut. 4:43), one of the three cities of refuge east of Jordan, about 12 miles north-east of the Sea of Galilee (Josh. 20:8). There are no further notices of it in Scripture. It became the head of the province of Gaulanitis, one of the four provinces into which Bashan was divided after the Babylonish captivity, and almost identical with the modern Jaulan, in Western Hauran, about 39 miles in length and 18 in breath.



GOLAN; GAULONITIS - go'-lan (golan), (Gaulanitis): Golan was a city in the territory allotted to Manasseh in Bashan, the most northerly of the three cities of refuge East of the Jordan (Dt 4:43; Josh 20:8); assigned with its "suburbs" to the Gershonite Levites (Josh 21:27; 1 Ch 6:71). It must have been a great and important city in its day; but the site cannot now be determined with any certainty. It was known to Josephus (Ant., XIII, xv, 3). Near Golan Alexander was ambushed by Obodas, king of the Arabians; and his army, crowded together in a narrow and deep valley, was broken in pieces by the multitude of camels (BJ, I, iv, 4). This incident is located at Gadara in Ant, XIII, xiii, 5. Later, Golan was destroyed by Alexander. It had already given its name to a large district, Gaulonitis (BJ, III, iii, 1, 5; IV, i, 1). It formed the eastern boundary of Galilee. It was part of the tetrarchy of Philip (Ant., XVII, viii, 1; XVIII, iv, 6). The city was known to Eusebius as "a large village," giving its name to the surrounding country (Onomasticon, under the word Gaulon). This country must have corresponded roughly with the modern Jaulan, in which the ancient name is preserved. The boundaries of the province today are Mt. Hermon on the North, Jordan and the Sea of Galilee on the West, Wady Yarmuk on the South, and Nahr `Allan on the East. This plateau, which in the North is about 3,000 ft. high, slopes gradually southward to a height of about 1,000 ft. It is entirely volcanic, and there are many cone-like peaks of extinct volcanoes, especially toward the North It affords good pasturage, and has long been a favorite summer grazing-ground of the nomads. Traces of ancient forests remain, but for the most part today it is treeless. To the East of the Sea of Galilee the soil is deep and rich. Splendid crops of wheat are grown here, and olives flourish in the hollows. The country is furrowed by deep valleys that carry the water southwestward into the Sea of Galilee. This region has not yet been subjected to thorough examination, but many important ruins have been found, which tell of a plentiful and prosperous population in times long past. The best description of these, and of the region generally, will be found in Schumacher's The Jaulan, and Across the Jordan. To him also we owe the excellent maps which carry us eastward to the province of el-Chauran.

http://classic.net.b....php?word=Golan

===============

Hmmm... dunno.... but suddenly I start smelling something really 'fishy'....

It is already said that there is a Christian undertone in the OLB. And now we can add the 'evil Gola' (or Galileans/Gaulonites) to the picture. Jews, anyone?



.

Edited by Abramelin, 19 February 2012 - 01:19 PM.

[Otharus]

Thanks for that Abe, we're getting somewhere spectacular now.

Prepare for a giant's leap forward...

[Van Gorp]

Otharus, on 18 February 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

Thank you VG, good to see you're busy with some older pages of the thread.

OLB provides an etymology for GERMANI and ALEMANI, I wonder if CHAUCI can be related to this fragment:

"MEN KAVCH IS ÁK WAN FRYAS ÀND MOT KÁP WÉSA" (p.146).

Gaules are called GOLA in OLB, but the meaning is not clear.
It is suggested that was the name of the sent priests from Sion. (p.60).

Thanks meanwhile for all the feed :-)

My opinion:
About Chauci: bit troublesome for me how in OLB, unless KAVCH is circumstanced with 'holigan'-like aura but from own people and not bad willed.  Hit & Run, Rob & Hood for the good.  

Hoaligan, from 'Hoala Goan' -> ik Ga Haal -> the Gaul's

But Schrieck has an idea:
Below his explanation of the

Druides
Druydes, De Ru-Wys'en, Ru from Roe (to rule), Wyse (Wise).  "Van de roe krijgen"

Sydon
He explains as 'Sideways', the side (de zijden).  Both sides?

Sion
Sie-Hon: Zicht Hoog, High View




Calais -> Ga-Hal-Is (Is from Is-Land, Eiland)

Missellja (related maybe, Mont Saint Michel, is Is-Land by time)
Messines, as from Mesen now, has nobility with Adela.

For the rest I was amased by the names of Orleans family.
Names with sounds as Wal, War, Lik, Hid, ... are very common there.

Edited by Van Gorp, 19 February 2012 - 04:26 PM.

[Abramelin]

Hey Van Gorp, about those "Chauci" who were the neighbours of the Frisii:

Tsjūke

http://nl.wikipedia....sjƻke_en_March

Tsjūke = (female) dog in Frisian,  

[Otharus]

Work in progress

JRTHA - OLB
earth - english
aarde - dutch
erde - german
ierde - frisian
jord - danish, swedish, norwegian
jörð - icelandic

JRTHA - OLB
erz - german
erts - dutch, frisian
ore - english



or - french
oro - italian, spanish
ouro - portuguese
aurum - latin
gold - english
goud - dutch, frisian
guld - danish, swedish
gull - norwegian, icelandic
GOLD - OLB



gelem (גלם) - (raw material) hebrew



GÉL - OLB
gult - icelandic
gul - danish, swedish, norwegian
geel - dutch
gelb - german
yellow - english
giallo - italian
giel - frisian



gol - frisian
gul - dutch
generous - english



geld - dutch, german (dutch pre-euro currency was "gulden")
jild - frisian
money - english
penge - danish
pengar - swedish
penger - norwegian
peningar - icelandic
monnaie/ argent - french



monnaie/ argent - french
penningen/ munten - dutch
münzen - german
mønter - danish
mynt - icelandic, swedish
mynter - norwegian
coins - english

argent - french
argento - italian
argentum - latin
argentino - spanish
silver - english, swedish
zilver - dutch
silber - german
sølv - danish, norwegian
silfur - icelandic
SULVER/ SILVER - OLB
sulver - frisian
zulver - westfrisian dialect

Gaul - english
Gaule - french
Gallia - latin, norwegian
Gallía - icelandic
Gallië - dutch
Gallien - german, danish, swedish



~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Golan-mountains: ore- or gold-mining?



Golem/ golum: anthropomorph statue, idol (religious), made of (precious) raw material (gelem) or gold?



GOLA (OLB): priests from Sídon (near Golan-mountains) who introduced idol-worship in (nowaday) France?

Gauls, originally followers of the GOLA, later people from Gaul (Latin: Gallia).

Gollum (Tolkien)

Edited by Otharus, 19 February 2012 - 05:18 PM.

[Van Gorp]

Abramelin, on 19 February 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

Hey Van Gorp, about those "Chauci" who were the neighbours of the Frisii:

Tsjūke

http://nl.wikipedia....sjƻke_en_March

Tsjūke = (female) dog in Frisian,  

LoL

Now you mention it Abe! And when checking, I saw it lays right aside 't Slaette-mer.

The word **** has maybe some ordinair co-notitie with it,
but nicely spoken Flemish say 'Sjoe-ke' to their liewalingen.

Mon petit chou-chou, quel filou!

[Abramelin]

Van Gorp, on 19 February 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

LoL

Now you mention it Abe! And when checking, I saw it lays right aside 't Slaette-mer.

The word **** has maybe some ordinair co-notitie with it,
but nicely spoken Flemish say 'Sjoe-ke' to their liewalingen.

Mon petit chou-chou, quel filou!

Nah, it was an explanation about the name of the "Tjeukemeer" or the "Tjeuke Lake", in Friesland.

Two women were walking along together, one carrying a bucket with milk. Then they saw a fire, and the one not carrying anything wanted to use the milk in the bottle of the other woman to extinguish the fire, but the other woman refused. And so she the woman wanting to extinguish the fire called the woman with the milk a "btch", LOL.

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, on 19 February 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

Nah, it was an explanation about the name of the "Tjeukemeer" or the "Tjeuker Lake", in Friesland.

Two women were walking along together, one carrying a bucket with milk. Then they saw a fire, and the one not carrying anything wanted to use the milk in the bottle of the other woman to extinguish the fire, but the other woman refused. And so she the woman wanting to extinguish the fire called the woman with the milk a "btch", LOL.

Abramelin, on 24 February 2011 - 07:15 PM, said:

Another thing: I have repeatedly posted here about writers who are convinced Homer's Illias and Odyssey took place in England/North Sea region/the Atlantic (De Grave, Cailleux, Gideon, Wilkins and others) or in the Baltic (Vinci), or in both the Baltic and the North Sea, and the Danish area specifically (Spanuth).

Most base their theories on Homer; it's only Wilkins who considers the OLB to be a reliable source.

OK, some quotes from Wilkin's book (Troy in England):

THE SEA PEOPLES (Thirteenth century BC)

Egyptian names (Likely origin)

Dardany Dardanians (Trojans from England)

Denyen Danaans (Danes, Achaeans from Scandinavia)

Tjekker People from the region of lake Tjeuker

(Frisia, north Netherlands)

Peleset Pelasgians (people from Belgium and northern France)

Shekelesh Sikele (people probably from south-west France)

(1992).

http://phdamste.tripod.com/trojan.html



THE SEA PEOPLES (Thirteenth century BC)

Egyptian names (Likely origin)

Dardany (Dardanians - Trojans from England, Dardanus being an ancestor of King Priam)

Denyen (Danaans - Danes, people from Scandinavia)

Tjekker (People from England, Teucer being an ancestor of King Priam)

Peleset (Pelasgians - "who dwell on the sea" people from the Low Countries)

Shikala (Sikule - "who live on ships", people from western France)

Note: The above table updated to 2005 version.

(...)

As to the date of the Trojan War, it is generally assumed that the event took place around 1200BC although estimates vary widely. Eratosthenes placed the destruction of Troy in 1184BC on genealogical grounds. This comes quite close to the date of Odysseus' visit to the Low Countries just after the destruction of Troy as recorded by the Frisian Oera Linda Book, better known in England under the title 'The Other Atlantis'. Converted to the Christian calendar this would have been in 1188BC, implying that the war had started in 1198BC, a date also compatible with the foundation of New Troy around 1100BC by Aeneas' great-grandson.

http://www.troy-in-e...-of-england.htm


-

Pelasgians = flatlanders/sea people:


Julius Pokorny[9] derives Pelasgoi from *pelag-skoi (Flachlandbewohner, or "flatland-inhabitants"); specifically, Bewohner der thessalischen Ebene ("Inhabitants of the Thessalian plain"). The Indo-European root is *plāk-, "flat."[10] Pokorny details a previous derivation, which appears in English at least as early as William Gladstone's Studies on Homer and the Homeric Age, 1858.[11] If the Pelasgians were not Indo-Europeans, the name in this derivation must have been assigned by the Hellenes.

The ancient Greek word for sea, pelagos, comes from the same root, *plāk-, as the Doric word plagos, "side" (which is flat), appearing in *pelag-skoi. Ernest Klein therefore simply interprets the same reconstructed form as "the sea men", where the sea is the flat.[12]

Klein's interpretation does not require the Indo-Europeans to have had a word for sea, which living on the inland plains (if they did) they are likely to have lacked. On encountering the sea they simply used the word for plain, "the flat." The flatlanders also could acquire what must have been to the Hellenes a homonym, "the sea men". Best of all, if the Egyptians of the Late Bronze Age encountered maritime marauders under this name they would have translated as Sea peoples.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Pelasgians


-

The conventional explanation for the reliefs of Medinet Habu is that a mass migration of Pereset (Peleset, or Philistines) and other seafaring peoples swept destructively around the eastern Mediterraean basin in the early 12th century BCE. Supposedly they fled some vague turmoil in the Aegean area, ravaged the Hittite empire, destroyed cities on the coast of Syria, and invaded Egypt but were repelled by Ramses III. The Egyptian word for Pereset (basically P-r-s-t) can be interpreted as either Pereset or Peleset because the hieroglyph for “r” could be pronounced as an “l”. However, it was usual to read the hieroglyph as an “r”. The preferred reading of the Egyptian word would be Pereset, not Peleset, but for more than a century, the identification of the Pereset with the biblical Philistines has led many scholars to write the word as Peleset. This identification appears to have been a huge mistake.

http://drchris.me/higgaion/?p=1192


From what I learned surfing the web, many think the "Prst" were the Persians.

Well, knowing you all want to find a reference to the Frisians in ancient manuscripts, I assume you would like to equate the "Prst" with these Frisians.

But hey, did the Frisians - or better, Frya's People - carry that name, Frisian (or something sounding similar), around 1300 BC (Medinet Habu)?? Or around 800 BC (Homer)?

You will remember that the OLB tells us Frya's People carried MANY NAMES...



.

Edited by Abramelin, 19 February 2012 - 09:23 PM.

[Abramelin]

Page 20 of the OLB ends with this line:

mark_ield_tiandela

http://rodinbook.nl/...paginering.html

Where does that line show up in the translation on your site, Menno?

Or look at the bottom of the original page 20 here:

http://images.tresoa...php?p=22&pm=212

+++

EDIT:

Either Ottema or Sandbach left it out.

But I found out you added the line:

[M 20]

6 . [BLANC LINE]

01 EK ÐORP SKIL EN HEMRIK HÆVA NEI SINA BIHOF ÆND
02 ÐENE GREVA SKIL NJVDA ÐAT ALRA EK SIN DEL
03 BIDONGÐ ÆND GOD HALD TILÐJU ÐA ÆFTER KVM
04 - MANDE NEN SKÆDE NAVT NE LYDA NE MUGE .
05 7 .
06 EK ÐORP MEI EN MÆARK HAVA TO KAP ÆND TO VR
07 KAP IEFTA TO WANDELJA . ALLE ‘T ORA LAND SKIL
08 BVW ÆND WALD BILYVA . ÐA ÐA BAMA ÐERA NE
09 MEI NIMMAN NAVT FÆLLA . BUTA MENA REDA
10 ÆND BUTA WETA ÐES WALD-GREVA HWAND
11 ÐA WALDA SEND TO MENA NIÐA . ÐERVMBE NE
12 MEI NIMMAN ÐER MÆSTER OF SA . [p. 32]
13 8 .
14 AS MÆRKJELD NE MEI ÐÆT ÐORP NAVT MAR NI
15 NIMMA SA ÐA TILLIFTE DEL FON ÐA S / K / AT HOR
16 FON ÐA INHEMAR NER FON ÐA FER-HEMANDE .
17 AK NE MEI ÐA MÆRK SKAT NAVT ER VRSELLAÐ
18 NE WERÐA AS ÐÆT ORA GOD .
19 9 .
20 ALLE ‘T MÆRKJELD MOT JERLIKES DELAÐ WRDE
21 ÐRJA DEGAN FAR ÐERE JOLDEI AN HVNDRED
22 DELUN TO DELANDE .
23 10 .
24 ÐI GREVETMAN MIT SINUM GREVUM SKIL
25 ÐER OF BURA TWINTICH DELA ÐENE MÆRK RJUCH
26 - TER / TIAN DELA / ÆND SINUM HELPAR FIF DELA . ÐJU FOLKES-
27 MODER EN DEL ÐJU GA MODER FJVWER DE
28 - LA ÐÆT ÐORP TIAN DELA ÐA ÆRMA ÐÆT IS
29 ÐERA ÐAM NAVT WÆRKA NI KUNNA NI MUGE
30 FIFTICH DELA .
31 11 .
32 ÐERA ÐAM TO MÆRKA KVMA NE MUGON

/MARK-IELD . TIAN DELA /

http://rodinbook.nl/olbmanuscript.html

That would mean more than 32 lines on a page...

.

Edited by Abramelin, 19 February 2012 - 10:19 PM.

[Swede]

Abramelin, on 18 February 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

Otharus, I have lot more to tell you all about these "Fin", but I better wait till next day, heh.

I do not want to post something that makes me look like a dork again.

Well, if you don't want to wait, Google "Paabo" AND "Boat-people" AND "Inuit", all that together in one Google search.

Swede once said the guy who created that 'Paabo' website was 'just' an artist, but I can tell you here and now: the Paabo guy (a Finn) may not be a scientist, but sure as hell he is not stupid.

.

Abe - Have not questioned Paabo's intellect. That said, his research may be a "bit" questionable. Do not know if you have fully explored his rather voluminous works. Found this one to be particularly troubling:

www.paabo.ca/uirala/uina-altaskinboat.html

Should this connection not work, this piece can be traced via:

http://www.paabo.ca/uirala/index.html

Click on Part Three and follow.

.

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 19 February 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

Page 20 of the OLB ends with this line:

mark_ield_tiandela

http://rodinbook.nl/...paginering.html

Where does that line show up in the translation on your site, Menno?

Or look at the bottom of the original page 20 here:

http://images.tresoa...php?p=22&pm=212

+++

EDIT:

Either Ottema or Sandbach left it out.

But I found out you added the line:

[M 20]

6 . [BLANC LINE]

01 EK ÐORP SKIL EN HEMRIK HÆVA NEI SINA BIHOF ÆND
02 ÐENE GREVA SKIL NJVDA ÐAT ALRA EK SIN DEL
03 BIDONGÐ ÆND GOD HALD TILÐJU ÐA ÆFTER KVM
04 - MANDE NEN SKÆDE NAVT NE LYDA NE MUGE .
05 7 .
06 EK ÐORP MEI EN MÆARK HAVA TO KAP ÆND TO VR
07 KAP IEFTA TO WANDELJA . ALLE 'T ORA LAND SKIL
08 BVW ÆND WALD BILYVA . ÐA ÐA BAMA ÐERA NE
09 MEI NIMMAN NAVT FÆLLA . BUTA MENA REDA
10 ÆND BUTA WETA ÐES WALD-GREVA HWAND
11 ÐA WALDA SEND TO MENA NIÐA . ÐERVMBE NE
12 MEI NIMMAN ÐER MÆSTER OF SA . [p. 32]
13 8 .
14 AS MÆRKJELD NE MEI ÐÆT ÐORP NAVT MAR NI
15 NIMMA SA ÐA TILLIFTE DEL FON ÐA S / K / AT HOR
16 FON ÐA INHEMAR NER FON ÐA FER-HEMANDE .
17 AK NE MEI ÐA MÆRK SKAT NAVT ER VRSELLAÐ
18 NE WERÐA AS ÐÆT ORA GOD .
19 9 .
20 ALLE 'T MÆRKJELD MOT JERLIKES DELAÐ WRDE
21 ÐRJA DEGAN FAR ÐERE JOLDEI AN HVNDRED
22 DELUN TO DELANDE .
23 10 .
24 ÐI GREVETMAN MIT SINUM GREVUM SKIL
25 ÐER OF BURA TWINTICH DELA ÐENE MÆRK RJUCH
26 - TER / TIAN DELA / ÆND SINUM HELPAR FIF DELA . ÐJU FOLKES-
27 MODER EN DEL ÐJU GA MODER FJVWER DE
28 - LA ÐÆT ÐORP TIAN DELA ÐA ÆRMA ÐÆT IS
29 ÐERA ÐAM NAVT WÆRKA NI KUNNA NI MUGE
30 FIFTICH DELA .
31 11 .
32 ÐERA ÐAM TO MÆRKA KVMA NE MUGON

/MARK-IELD . TIAN DELA /

http://rodinbook.nl/olbmanuscript.html

That would mean more than 32 lines on a page...

.

As you see I have put / MARK-IELD . TIAN DELA / between /../, which means that it is a correction to the text as is shown by the preceding correction mark .Besides corrections are not placed in the beginning of a new line, but in the middle or at the end in te lower margin.  Corrections are not counted as separate lines. You find the correction mark  in line 26. This line should then read:  26 - TER ÆND SINUM HELPAR FIF DELA . /MARK-IELD . TIAN DELA / ÐJU FOLKES- but appears to be corrupted as it does not say for whom the money is intended. I suppose, that the correction mark has been badly placed and should follow RJUCHTER, who else would not get any money. This is confirmed by the below account.

PS It is interesting to read, that the Pre-Roman old Frisians used the Roman decimals and that half of the money went to the poor (Hegel ?). Grouw, the small town, where the Halbertsma's lived is known as a red town.


Account

Grevetman         20
Maerkrjuchter     10
Helpar                  5
Folksmoder          1
Ga - moder           4
Thorp                  10
                         ------
                           50

Aerma                50

                          -----

Total                  100

Edited by Knul, 20 February 2012 - 05:40 AM.

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 20 February 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

As you see I have put / MARK-IELD . TIAN DELA / between /../, which means that it is a correction to the text as is shown by the preceding correction mark .Besides corrections are not placed in the beginning of a new line, but in the middle or at the end in te lower margin.  Corrections are not counted as separate lines. You find the correction mark  in line 26. This line should then read:  26 - TER ÆND SINUM HELPAR FIF DELA . /MARK-IELD . TIAN DELA / ÐJU FOLKES- but appears to be corrupted as it does not say for whom the money is intended. I suppose, that the correction mark has been badly placed and should follow RJUCHTER, who else would not get any money. This is confirmed by the below account.

PS It is interesting to read, that the Pre-Roman old Frisians used the Roman decimals and that half of the money went to the poor (Hegel ?). Grouw, the small town, where the Halbertsma's lived is known as a red town.


Account

Grevetman         20
Maerkrjuchter     10
Helpar                  5
Folksmoder          1
Ga - moder           4
Thorp                  10
                         ------
                           50

Aerma                50

                          -----

Total                  100

Yes, it appears the copying was done in a hurry when you consider the many mistakes and spelling errors and things that were left/forgotten.

But this I don't get: you said, "the Pre-Roman old Frisians used the Roman decimals". No they didn't they used decimals, not Roman decimals. Even their ciphers are based on the decimal system ( = based on 10 ), but the way they are written is obviously based on the medieval Hindu-Arab ciphers.

I think it were the Gauls who used a sytem based on 20: a remnant of that system can still be found in for instance French: quatre-vingt = 4 x 20 = 80. I think the Germans already used the decimal system during or before Roman times.

++++++


EDIT:

Dunno, but I think I was wrong with Germans using the decimal system (base 10):

http://en.wikipedia....simal#In_Europe

The vigesimal system appears to have been widely used all over Europe.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 20 February 2012 - 11:56 AM.

[Abramelin]

Swede, on 20 February 2012 - 03:39 AM, said:

Abe - Have not questioned Paabo's intellect. That said, his research may be a "bit" questionable. Do not know if you have fully explored his rather voluminous works. Found this one to be particularly troubling:

www.paabo.ca/uirala/uina-altaskinboat.html

Should this connection not work, this piece can be traced via:

http://www.paabo.ca/uirala/index.html

Click on Part Three and follow.

.

No Swede, I know you didn't question his intelligence, but the guy is also not like 'our' Sitchin or a Von Däniken.

But he does base a lot of his interpretation on names of people, while genetics does not seem to support his ideas.

It all looks very 'possible' without any real proof, much like Thor Heyerdahls's theories.

[Abramelin]

I posted about the linguist Theo Vennemann before, but in connection with the OLB "GOLA" (from Sidon) the next is worth a repeat:

* Punic, the Semitic language spoken in classical Carthage, is a superstratum of the Germanic languages. According to Vennemann, Carthaginians colonized the North Sea region between the 6th and 3rd centuries BC; this is evidenced by numerous Semitic loan words in the Germanic languages, as well as structural features such as strong verbs, and similarities between Norse religion and Semitic religion. This theory replaces his older theory of a superstratum of an unknown Semitic language called "Atlantic".

* Semitic is a substratum of the Celtic languages, as shown by certain structural features of Celtic, especially their lack of external possessors.

* The Runic alphabet is derived directly from the Phoenician alphabet used by the Carthaginians, without intervention by the Greek alphabet.

http://en.wikipedia..../Theo_Vennemann

Punic would be - according to Vennemann - a language that sort of added 'frosting' (= superstratum) to the 'cake' of Germanic languages.

But Semitic would be at the basis of Celtic languges (= substratum) in general.


But we should not forget his theories are considered controversial.