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Did ancient native American seafarers cross


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#241    Qoais

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 08:37 PM

Where's Northern Europe on that chart?  The Bok Saga speaks of people living in the North 75,000 years ago.  Dating of bones found in the cave described by Ior Bok, validates this claim.  Why couldn't people have migrated to the Americas from there, thousands of years farther back in history than what we're claiming?  Once the people realized that they were becoming frozen in, they surely would have tried to move on.  Some that stayed probably thought they could wait out the freeze, and seemingly, they did.  But the Bok Saga also talks about sending out "rememberers" to the colonies, keeping tabs on them to make sure they were upholding the traditions and to teach them the ancient language based on their sound system.  Where would these "rememberers" go?  They had to have known where the colonies were, and they had to have a way to get there.

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#242    cormac mac airt

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 08:46 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 02 March 2010 - 07:42 PM, said:

The Göttweig Interstadial was an interval in the last ice age when conditions in Europe and Siberia changed for the better, and a lot of migrations and cultural changes took place.

Even though at present the latest research on genetics concerning the DNA of native Americans shows that the first migration to the Americas took place around 18,000 BP, linguists put that date of first arrival almost a millennium further back in time.

Now I know you and me have our doubts about that date the linguists came up with.

But at that interstadial there were people living on the Siberian side of the Bering Strait. For me it is not a farfatched idea to assume these people did cross that Bering Strait landbridge at that time.

The conditions on that landbridge were similar to those on the Siberian side, people wandered, and just continued their journey, hunting game or whatever.

And I think that all the proof we need for that much earlier date is lying on the bottom of the present Bering Strait or off the submerged coast of Alaska.


Abramelin,

Jump back up there and re-read Swede's post #232. As he said, "the Cordilleran/Laurentide ice passage wasn't available from at least the LGM to circa 11,500". Meaning there was no open passage from c.18,000 BC - 11,500 BC. Anyone coming over had to do so by following the ice shelf, by sea, or waiting things out. Neither of which, once again, is relevant to your Gottweig Interstadial given as 40,000 - 29,000 BC nor to any possible migrations of NA to Europe during that Interstadial.

cormac

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#243    MARAB0D

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 09:02 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 02 March 2010 - 02:45 PM, said:

"They still have similar languages, cuisine and even dances."

Similar languages?? I think a linguist would disagree with you here. There is the slightest of slightest of similarity, and if you read the theories about it, you'll notice that linguists have tried - almost in desparation - to link the Basque language to another language.

"On migration to Ireland and Britain you clearly confuse them with the Celts"

No, not at all. There seems to be genetic evidence that the ancestors of the Basques went to Ireland and Wales (and part of England), and mixed with the pre-Celtic tribes living there (some say even the Irish Book of Invasions/Conquests talks about their arrival). Or maybe it was the other way round because it is said that the first pre-Celtic tribes arrived there around 5000 BC.

And you cannot just compare present day looks. You can be white as a lilly with blond hair and blue eyes, but still have genetic markers inherited from some ancient black African ancestor in your family tree.

BUT....

The Basques and Britons tend to be far apart in the BGA maps. One example from one of the most accurate BGA maps developed so far: the Basques are quite apart from the Britons, the Britons tend to fall in the Orcadian cluster, or in between France and the Orcadians.

http://i50.tinypic.com/2zs79dj.png

From : https://www.forumbio...p?t=3193&page=2

Like I already said: the new data flood in every year, and every year the theories about migration patterns have to be adapted.

(and I haven't the faintest clue what BGA stands for...)


.

How can a genetic evidence tell where exactly the mixing few thousand years ago did occur? We have absolutely bullet-proof historical records about the Celts (Gauls) blending with the Iberians in Spain and forming the mixed tribes of Celto-Ibers. That those celts were exactly the same Gauls as in now-France comes from the name of Portugal, meaning Port of Gaul, the sea gates to Gaul. Celtic tribes were the first Indo-Europeans settling in Europe, this is why they occupied the Western part of it. They are "Celts" only because they were using the specific axe of this name, but the ancient descriptions of the Gauls are all matching the people, living today in Ireland and Wales. Iberians may have left traces in their genotype but did little to change their phenotype.

If my memory works OK then the first celts came to Europe from Asia Minor in the end of 3rd beginning of 2nd millenium AD, followed by the Germanic tribes in the middle-late 2nd millenium AD, Greek literature actually describes first Germanic tribes coming (Dorians) and they did not come from Asia Minor but from Northern Africa, hence that Philistine/Olaf hypothesis. Greeks thought they originated from ants, hence those under Achiless' command were called Mirmidons, Ants. Hellenes are also Celts, but mixed with Iberians and Phoenicians, same as most Italian tribes - one has to keep in mind that Romans were distinguioshing two Gauls - Transalpian (European) and Cisalpian (northern part of Italy).

Nennius gives another version of Celts coming to Britain, by deriving them from the Trojans, who landed in Latium with Aeneus, but later instead of forming one tribe with Aborigines (later Latins), left Italy under leadership of Brutus, nephew of Aeneus, sailed through Gibraltar and landed at Cassiteras, renaming them into Britain after their leader. In his view Ireland was populated independently from Spain - so he puts the timeframe of re-settling of the Celts to Ireland and Britain as about 11th-12th century BC. I mean there is no such thing as pre-Celts at 5000 BC, they were already formed tribes from Asia Minor and came to Europe much later.


#244    Abramelin

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 01:56 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 02 March 2010 - 08:46 PM, said:

Abramelin,

Jump back up there and re-read Swede's post #232. As he said, "the Cordilleran/Laurentide ice passage wasn't available from at least the LGM to circa 11,500". Meaning there was no open passage from c.18,000 BC - 11,500 BC. Anyone coming over had to do so by following the ice shelf, by sea, or waiting things out. Neither of which, once again, is relevant to your Gottweig Interstadial given as 40,000 - 29,000 BC nor to any possible migrations of NA to Europe during that Interstadial.

cormac


???


The Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) refers to the time of maximum extent of the ice sheets during the last glacial period, approximately 20,000 years ago.[1] This extreme persisted for several thousand years. It is followed by the Late Glacial Maximum.
http://en.wikipedia....Glacial_Maximum

Swede said:

"Taking into account the recent information that indicates that the Cordilleran/Laurentide ice passage wasn't available from at least the LGM to circa 11,500 (with apparently no herbivores in the area until 10,500), the western coastal route is gaining more support."

So, from around 20,000 - 11,500 BP the ice passage wasn't availabe.

The Gottweig Interstadial  lasted from roughly 40,000 BC to about 24,000 BC..... was there a passage in the Cordilleran/Laurentide ice sheet then??


EDIT:

Migrants from northeastern Asia could have walked to Alaska with relative ease when Beringia was above sea level. But traveling south from Alaska to the rest of North America may have posed significant challenges. The two main possible routes proposed south for human migration are: down the Pacific coast or by way of an interior passage along the eastern flank of the Rocky Mountains.[14] When the Laurentide and Cordilleran ice sheets were at their maximum extent, both routes were likely impassable. The Cordilleran sheet reached across to the Pacific shore in the west, and its eastern edge abutted the Laurentide, near the present border between British Columbia and Alberta. Geological evidence suggests the Pacific coastal route was open for overland travel before 23,000 years ago and after 15,000 years ago. During the coldest millennia of the last ice age, roughly 23,000 to 19,000 years ago, lobes of glaciers hundreds of kilometers wide flowed down to the sea.[12] Deep crevasses scarred their surfaces, making travel across them dangerous. Even if people traveled by boat—a claim for which there is currently no direct archaeological evidence as sea level rise has hidden the old coast line — the journey would have been difficult with abundant icebergs in the water. Around 15,000 to 13,000 years ago the coast was presumed ice-free. Additionally, by this time the climate had warmed, and lands were covered in grass and trees. Early Paleo-Indian groups could have readily replenished their food supplies, repaired clothing and tents, and replaced broken or lost tools.[12]

Coastal or watercraft theories have broad implications; one being that Paleo-Indians in North America may not have been purely terrestrial "big-game hunters", but instead were already adapted to maritime or semi-maritime lifestyles.[8] Additionally, it is possible that "Beringian" (western Alaskan) or European groups migrated into the northern interior and coastlines only to meet their demise during the last glacial maximum, approximately 20,000 years ago,[18] leaving evidence of occupation in specific localized areas. However they would not be considered a founding population, unless they had managed to migrate south, populate and survive the coldest part of the last ice-age.[19]

http://en.wikipedia....o_the_New_World








Edited by Abramelin, 03 March 2010 - 02:07 AM.


#245    cormac mac airt

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 03:35 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 03 March 2010 - 01:56 AM, said:

???


The Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) refers to the time of maximum extent of the ice sheets during the last glacial period, approximately 20,000 years ago.[1] This extreme persisted for several thousand years. It is followed by the Late Glacial Maximum.
http://en.wikipedia....Glacial_Maximum

Swede said:

"Taking into account the recent information that indicates that the Cordilleran/Laurentide ice passage wasn't available from at least the LGM to circa 11,500 (with apparently no herbivores in the area until 10,500), the western coastal route is gaining more support."

So, from around 20,000 - 11,500 BP the ice passage wasn't availabe.

The Gottweig Interstadial  lasted from roughly 40,000 BC to about 24,000 BC..... was there a passage in the Cordilleran/Laurentide ice sheet then??


EDIT:

Migrants from northeastern Asia could have walked to Alaska with relative ease when Beringia was above sea level. But traveling south from Alaska to the rest of North America may have posed significant challenges. The two main possible routes proposed south for human migration are: down the Pacific coast or by way of an interior passage along the eastern flank of the Rocky Mountains.[14] When the Laurentide and Cordilleran ice sheets were at their maximum extent, both routes were likely impassable. The Cordilleran sheet reached across to the Pacific shore in the west, and its eastern edge abutted the Laurentide, near the present border between British Columbia and Alberta. Geological evidence suggests the Pacific coastal route was open for overland travel before 23,000 years ago and after 15,000 years ago. During the coldest millennia of the last ice age, roughly 23,000 to 19,000 years ago, lobes of glaciers hundreds of kilometers wide flowed down to the sea.[12] Deep crevasses scarred their surfaces, making travel across them dangerous. Even if people traveled by boat—a claim for which there is currently no direct archaeological evidence as sea level rise has hidden the old coast line — the journey would have been difficult with abundant icebergs in the water. Around 15,000 to 13,000 years ago the coast was presumed ice-free. Additionally, by this time the climate had warmed, and lands were covered in grass and trees. Early Paleo-Indian groups could have readily replenished their food supplies, repaired clothing and tents, and replaced broken or lost tools.[12]

Coastal or watercraft theories have broad implications; one being that Paleo-Indians in North America may not have been purely terrestrial "big-game hunters", but instead were already adapted to maritime or semi-maritime lifestyles.[8] Additionally, it is possible that "Beringian" (western Alaskan) or European groups migrated into the northern interior and coastlines only to meet their demise during the last glacial maximum, approximately 20,000 years ago,[18] leaving evidence of occupation in specific localized areas. However they would not be considered a founding population, unless they had managed to migrate south, populate and survive the coldest part of the last ice-age.[19]

http://en.wikipedia....o_the_New_World


I think perhaps you've answered your own question, since the bolded part above and the 20,000 - 11,500 BP I mentioned earlier are the same general timeframe where there was NO ice-free corridor. The possibility of an ice-free corridor before the Last Glacial Maximum shows no evidenced archaeological or genetic connection with human migrations into the Americas, particularly the US, thus far. All of which is still not helpful to any speculation of early NA migrating across North America only to manage their way back into Europe.

Quote

There had been no ice-free passage south along the eastern margin of the Cordillera from about 21,000 YBP (perhaps earlier) to as late as 12,000 YBP.

The Ice-Free Corridor Revisited

Quote

The ends of what was later to become an ice-free corridor had begun to open by 15,000 14C y.a., but about 1000 km of ice still remained blocking its course.

NORTH AMERICA DURING THE LAST 150,000 YEARS

Quote

An "ice free corridor" through western Canada to the northern plains is thought to have opened up no earlier than 13,500 years ago.

Late Glacial Maximum

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 03 March 2010 - 03:39 AM.

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#246    lightly

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 02:22 PM

Abramelin,  Thanks a lot for showing the location of the Doggerlands  ,  again.   I like to look at Satellite images  of continental shelves and other now submerged lands... and sometimes try to find the depths.. to see what was above water  at certain times.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#247    Abramelin

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 04:23 PM

View Postlightlyy, on 03 March 2010 - 02:22 PM, said:

Abramelin,  Thanks a lot for showing the location of the Doggerlands  ,  again.   I like to look at Satellite images  of continental shelves and other now submerged lands... and sometimes try to find the depths.. to see what was above water  at certain times.

Well Lightlyy. read the Doggerland thread if you like. I have posted many images of the submerged land that is now the North Sea.

Yeah, I know, it's a lot of pages, but - well, that's just me - it's worth the trouble.


#248    Abramelin

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 04:37 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 03 March 2010 - 03:35 AM, said:

I think perhaps you've answered your own question, since the bolded part above and the 20,000 - 11,500 BP I mentioned earlier are the same general timeframe where there was NO ice-free corridor. The possibility of an ice-free corridor before the Last Glacial Maximum shows no evidenced archaeological or genetic connection with human migrations into the Americas, particularly the US, thus far. All of which is still not helpful to any speculation of early NA migrating across North America only to manage their way back into Europe.

cormac

I have read here and there - and I think you and many here did too - that there are signs the Americas were being peopled long before 20,000 BP.

Now there may have been no ice-free coridor, but people also travelled by boat/canoe.

And that is what I said: anything that might prove a far earlier arrival into the Americas is very probably lying off the now submerged coast of north west America/ Alaska.

But yes, you are right, there is no scientific proof of that as far as I know of.

Liightlyy talked about the Red Paint Peopl/Maritime Archaic. Many finds in ancient Europe are very similar to finds in North America.

I think it's no coincidence, I think they were in contact.

There have been reports during the past centuries of people arriving in Ireland and Scotland. Some say they may have been Inuit who had drifted of course. I read here, on Unexplained Mysteries, about a discovery in Greenland (??), dating to only 5000 years ago of people who were genetically linked to Siberian people (if I find that post again I will add a link).


#249    Abramelin

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 04:43 PM

View PostQoais, on 02 March 2010 - 08:37 PM, said:

Where's Northern Europe on that chart?  The Bok Saga speaks of people living in the North 75,000 years ago.  Dating of bones found in the cave described by Ior Bok, validates this claim.  Why couldn't people have migrated to the Americas from there, thousands of years farther back in history than what we're claiming?  Once the people realized that they were becoming frozen in, they surely would have tried to move on.  Some that stayed probably thought they could wait out the freeze, and seemingly, they did.  But the Bok Saga also talks about sending out "rememberers" to the colonies, keeping tabs on them to make sure they were upholding the traditions and to teach them the ancient language based on their sound system.  Where would these "rememberers" go?  They had to have known where the colonies were, and they had to have a way to get there.

I am sure I said earlier in this thread that people resembling the present day Saami (Lapps) may have taken part in the migrations to America, along with the Siberian Mongoloids.

And what chart are you talking about? The ones I posed about Doggerland??

Btw, the Bok Saga appears to me to be a hoax, just like the Dutch "Oera Linda Book".


#250    MARAB0D

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 06:42 PM

View Postlightlyy, on 03 March 2010 - 02:22 PM, said:

Abramelin,  Thanks a lot for showing the location of the Doggerlands  ,  again.   I like to look at Satellite images  of continental shelves and other now submerged lands... and sometimes try to find the depths.. to see what was above water  at certain times.

It may help if instead of satellite images you look at bathymetry maps of the ocean floor, as they normally colour-code the elevation levels. To find them I search for "bathymetry" or "ocean floor maps" or just ocean bottom.


#251    MARAB0D

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 06:51 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 03 March 2010 - 04:43 PM, said:

I am sure I said earlier in this thread that people resembling the present day Saami (Lapps) may have taken part in the migrations to America, along with the Siberian Mongoloids.

And what chart are you talking about? The ones I posed about Doggerland??

Btw, the Bok Saga appears to me to be a hoax, just like the Dutch "Oera Linda Book".

Of course they did take part in the migration to Americas. Saami like all other Finns are closely related to the Mongolian tribes and almost share the appearance and languages. Finno-Ugoric group languages are very close to Mongolian and sometimes it is hard to distinguish between these tribes. Say Huns were little different from just Mongols, but we consider them Finns - their original territory is Siberia, next to Mongolia, it is called after them as their self name was Sabires (Obres, Sabres, Avares in another pronunciation), while the actual "Hun" is the same as Mongolian "khan", "mister", "sir" and "khanum", "missis", "lady". It seems these tribes divided into separate groups much later than the crossing to Americas took place.

But it seems only the very northern part of them was migrating, as the migrants did not know horses and were probably living off the sea and rivers.


#252    Abramelin

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 01:38 AM

View PostMARAB0D, on 03 March 2010 - 06:42 PM, said:

It may help if instead of satellite images you look at bathymetry maps of the ocean floor, as they normally colour-code the elevation levels. To find them I search for "bathymetry" or "ocean floor maps" or just ocean bottom.

Bathymetric maps of the North Sea floor will give us an idea of how Doggerland might have looked.

BUT...

That will only tell us how the bottom of that sea looks now, and not necessarily how Doggerland really looked when it was still above sea level.

The Storegga Slide must have re-shaped the look of it, and the 8100 years of strong sea currents did the rest.

Now they use other methods to give us a more exact picture, like looking below the present sediment (seismic/radar), and 'only' a part of the North Sea the size of Wales (east of England) has been mapped that way.

EDIT:

A bathymetric map of the North Sea (an old one) :

Posted Image

Edited by Abramelin, 04 March 2010 - 02:04 AM.


#253    Abramelin

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 01:44 AM

View PostMARAB0D, on 03 March 2010 - 06:51 PM, said:

Of course they did take part in the migration to Americas. Saami like all other Finns are closely related to the Mongolian tribes and almost share the appearance and languages. Finno-Ugoric group languages are very close to Mongolian and sometimes it is hard to distinguish between these tribes. Say Huns were little different from just Mongols, but we consider them Finns - their original territory is Siberia, next to Mongolia, it is called after them as their self name was Sabires (Obres, Sabres, Avares in another pronunciation), while the actual "Hun" is the same as Mongolian "khan", "mister", "sir" and "khanum", "missis", "lady". It seems these tribes divided into separate groups much later than the crossing to Americas took place.

But it seems only the very northern part of them was migrating, as the migrants did not know horses and were probably living off the sea and rivers.


Don't say "of course", it's just a possibility.

And it's quite easy to to distinguish between the Saami and the Mongoloids. I don't know where you get your information from...


#254    lightly

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 02:40 AM

View PostMARAB0D, on 03 March 2010 - 06:42 PM, said:

It may help if instead of satellite images you look at bathymetry maps of the ocean floor, as they normally colour-code the elevation levels. To find them I search for "bathymetry" or "ocean floor maps" or just ocean bottom.

ThankYou MARABOD,   ah!  bathymetry maps .. sounds promising... because yes.. it's hard to find the elevation levels.

  AND..  Thanks again Abramelin.   ..and ya.. as something you posted talking about "amazingly similar" Art design in the american and european Maritime Archaic is pretty strong evidence of contact i would GUESS.  ????????????????????????????????

Edited by lightlyy, 04 March 2010 - 02:42 AM.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#255    Abramelin

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 03:50 PM

View Postlightlyy, on 04 March 2010 - 02:40 AM, said:

ThankYou MARABOD,   ah!  bathymetry maps .. sounds promising... because yes.. it's hard to find the elevation levels.

  AND..  Thanks again Abramelin.   ..and ya.. as something you posted talking about "amazingly similar" Art design in the american and european Maritime Archaic is pretty strong evidence of contact i would GUESS.  ????????????????????????????????

Well, watch the map I posted, and the elevation levels are there too.





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