22 replies to this topic

[Lion6969]

shadowhive, on 24 February 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

See there's something slightly flawed in that point.

Yes most of us expect some form of justice in this life, but we expect it to be fair. For instance a murder and someone that drink drives both did something wrong, but they both get different and appropriate forms of justice. The punishment (as they say) fits the crime. In life there are many things that we can do wrong, but the appropriate form of justice for each thing 'fits the crime'. There's not an answer that covers everything. ie execution for someone that had a parking ticket would be unacceptable, but for someone that committed genocide would be considered acceptable (likewise giving someone a fine for genocide would be equally unacceptable).

Without going in depth if there is a god, then he is all powerful, all loving all just and all judging and the best of judges. Then he will judge best what your accountable for, it's very simple.

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The problem with 'god's justice' is that the concept of fitting the punishment to the crime is alien. There's only one punishment (eternal death) and almost anything can be deemed worthy of it (even things that wouldn't be deemed as worthy of such treatment like disbelief in god is treated as such). God's supposed to be this supremely wise and superior entity, but has the black/white morality of a child. THAT is why people have a problem with 'god's justice' lion: that it's not justice at all.

so if a god exists, he created all, he tells us via human messengers who and what he is, and that we ought to live our lives to fulfil our purpose for creation. It's like going into exam where the examiner hands you a question paper bit in the other hand also gives you the answer sheet showing you how to pass. Now if your arrogant enough to reject that, then you have no excuse for your failure. Thus if god has provided the test (your life), then given you the intelligence to seek the answers and pass the test, if you do you return to your true home, if not your destined to goto hell, not because god loves for you to be there, but because you were arrogant to reject him and his help. That's justice, ultimate justice, the thing you hold most precious to yourself is a gift from him, if you abuse it then it's your fault, especially if you know where you could end up through such negligence, then that would be tantamount to foolishness. Obviously this is if there is a god.

As for punishments fitting crimes, in this life that's debatable. But the penalty to waste a whole life has a higher stakes.

[shadowhive]

Lion6969, on 24 February 2012 - 10:45 PM, said:

Without going in depth if there is a god, then he is all powerful, all loving all just and all judging and the best of judges. Then he will judge best what your accountable for, it's very simple.

And yet god still has no sense that (for example) a person that committed genocide is worse than an atheist. Doesn't sound like the best judge to me.

Also doesn't sound like the best judge when he only has one punishment available to him.

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so if a god exists, he created all, he tells us via human messengers who and what he is, and that we ought to live our lives to fulfil our purpose for creation. It's like going into exam where the examiner hands you a question paper bit in the other hand also gives you the answer sheet showing you how to pass. Now if your arrogant enough to reject that, then you have no excuse for your failure. Thus if god has provided the test (your life), then given you the intelligence to seek the answers and pass the test, if you do you return to your true home, if not your destined to goto hell, not because god loves for you to be there, but because you were arrogant to reject him and his help. That's justice, ultimate justice, the thing you hold most precious to yourself is a gift from him, if you abuse it then it's your fault, especially if you know where you could end up through such negligence, then that would be tantamount to foolishness. Obviously this is if there is a god.

As for punishments fitting crimes, in this life that's debatable. But the penalty to waste a whole life has a higher stakes.

Problem: we have had literally hundreds of 'human messengers' over human history, each claiming to know what god/gods want us to do. Ssome are liars, ovbviously only in it for the power. Some might not be. Some might just be saying what THEY want. So if (and it's a big if) god gave the message to even one of those messengers all we can do is just guess and hope we got the right one.

It's not arrogant to 'reject his help' when history shows (and the present does too) that there are many frauds and liars that claim to know god and use that to manipulate people.

That's a bad example. If an examiner gives you the questions and answers together then the exam is void. It it called cheating and it results in the exam being tossed away and you get nothing.

Again, that makes god seem childish. 'I give you your own intelligence... but it's best if you don't use it, follow me instead and you won't have to. All you have to do is do as your told, don't really question it and you're all set.' The my way or the high way thinking is nothing short of a dictatorship system, but because it's god that's all fine.

Why is punishment meeting the crime so debatable? It's better than having one set punishment for everything.

So you think everyone deserves to go to hell if they don't toe the line, regardless of how minor the mistake may be?

Edited by shadowhive, 24 February 2012 - 11:07 PM.

[Lion6969]

shadowhive, on 24 February 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

And yet god still has no sense that (for example) a person that committed genocide is worse than an atheist. Doesn't sound like the best judge to me.

Also doesn't sound like the best judge when he only has one punishment available to him.

It's irrespective what our finite little minds can comprehend his wisdom or judgment. My point is simple, if there is a god, perfect etc, then logically he would also be the best judge irrespective of whether you agreed with his judgement or not. Do you understand this?

As for one who commits genocide can have it easy over the atheist, how so? How do you even know? God may forgive both at the last breath when they truly acknowledge him (atheist) or repent (genocidal maniac). How god judges is not fully comprehensible, we can comprehend the essence and function of justice based on our own experience and lives, but if gods the best judge, then we cannot argue with his judgement, because we cannot fully comprehend it. To argue against gods judgement is futile if he is god then is he is the best to judge. It's really simple.

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Problem: we have had literally hundreds of 'human messengers' over human history, each claiming to know what god/gods want us to do. Ssome are liars, ovbviously only in it for the power. Some might not be. Some might just be saying what THEY want. So if (and it's a big if) god gave the message to even one of those messengers all we can do is just guess and hope we got the right one.

Not guess but analyse. We have been here before and I can I say is it takes an open mind and an open heart, patience, hard work and reflection which carries implication. Go through them all to find which ate truthful, consistent. Good luck. However this will not be an excuse in the end when judgement arrives, as ignorance is not excusable. A true step to seek the truth will lead you to it and the path will open up.

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It's not arrogant to 'reject his help' when history shows (and the present does too) that there are many frauds and liars that claim to know god and use that to manipulate people.

I agree there are many frauds etc, but gods given us faculties to be able to determine for ourselves. Don't accept anything from anyone as gospel, cross reference it, check it, analyse it, decide for yourself. You will still be rewarded for the intention let's say if you died before finding the truth. That's the mercy of god, just a true intention to seek the truth can lead you to home, even if you died before actually reaching the truth.

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That's a bad example. If an examiner gives you the questions and answers together then the exam is void. It it called cheating and it results in the exam being tossed away and you get nothing.

Call it what ever you wish, but the example is apt because life is a test, gods given you an answer sheet too, use it or don't is down to you and cconsequence have to be accepted. The example was to illustrate how easy god is trying to make it for us.

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Again, that makes god seem childish. 'I give you your own intelligence... but it's best if you don't use it, follow me instead and you won't have to. All you have to do is do as your told, don't really question it and you're all set.' The my way or the high way thinking is nothing short of a dictatorship system, but because it's god that's all fine.

No! It's like this. "here I give you life a gift, cherish and use it purposefully. If you live your accordingly to your purpose and remember your creator, you will return home. You have the choice to do as you wish, I will give you free will. Now go use the intelligence I have given you and make your choices". That's not dictatorship, that's offering you a path to success, at the same time he has given you free will to use that intelligence against that successful path or use it for that path and get home. Consequences of choices are clearly told to us, if we ignore them then that's our fault.

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Why is punishment meeting the crime so debatable? It's better than having one set punishment for everything.

So you think everyone deserves to go to hell if they don't toe the line, regardless of how minor the mistake may be?

I don't want anyone to go to hell as a Muslim we are taught to spread the truth in order to help humanity dodge hell, so why would I think that. I think if gods judges anyone to go to hell then that's his judgement, he is the best of judges. However god has also told us what actions, choices, kind of lives that can lead to hell, so how to avoid is also shown, if we ignore it all then it's our fault. All religions talk of the same.

[SatampraZeiros]

I think everyone needs something to hold onto, a belief in something to help them get through their days, did we invent god or did he invent us? thats something well all have the answer to sooner or later, so why worry about it? why try to shove our ideas down some other peoples throats? I know the Moon's not made of cheese, but until someone can physically prove to me otherwise I'll keep believing what I want to believe.

[shadowhive]

Lion6969, on 24 February 2012 - 11:35 PM, said:

It's irrespective what our finite little minds can comprehend his wisdom or judgment. My point is simple, if there is a god, perfect etc, then logically he would also be the best judge irrespective of whether you agreed with his judgement or not. Do you understand this?

As for one who commits genocide can have it easy over the atheist, how so? How do you even know? God may forgive both at the last breath when they truly acknowledge him (atheist) or repent (genocidal maniac). How god judges is not fully comprehensible, we can comprehend the essence and function of justice based on our own experience and lives, but if gods the best judge, then we cannot argue with his judgement, because we cannot fully comprehend it. To argue against gods judgement is futile if he is god then is he is the best to judge. It's really simple.

Oh I understand that. What I don't comprehend is a judge that has no concept on morality. A judge that thinks everything bought before them deserves one punishment (regardless of what it may be) isn't a good judge. It's that simple.

Have it easy? No. Genocide and atheism are to completely different things. They are not treated as equal by any means, yet you're ok with a 'perfect judge' treating them as such.

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Not guess but analyse. We have been here before and I can I say is it takes an open mind and an open heart, patience, hard work and reflection which carries implication. Go through them all to find which ate truthful, consistent. Good luck. However this will not be an excuse in the end when judgement arrives, as ignorance is not excusable. A true step to seek the truth will lead you to it and the path will open up.

We have, but I think it's an impotant point to bring up.

A religion that calls god a perfect judge but who also only has two options available to him (heaven and hell) sounds more questionable than truthful.

IF judgement arrives I'd want god (this supposedly perfect judge as you claim) to look at me as a person. Religion does not automatically make a person good, yet is frequently given as a 'get out of jail fee' card to get passed god (or to get god to look more favorably on you).

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I agree there are many frauds etc, but gods given us faculties to be able to determine for ourselves. Don't accept anything from anyone as gospel, cross reference it, check it, analyse it, decide for yourself. You will still be rewarded for the intention let's say if you died before finding the truth. That's the mercy of god, just a true intention to seek the truth can lead you to home, even if you died before actually reaching the truth.

I don't accept anything from anyone as gospel, certainly when it pertains to god. That's why I'm so skeptical when it comes to religion. I'm not willing to buy what anyone says about god at face value, regardless of who they are or what revelations they may claim to have had.

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Call it what ever you wish, but the example is apt because life is a test, gods given you an answer sheet too, use it or don't is down to you and cconsequence have to be accepted. The example was to illustrate how easy god is trying to make it for us.

It's not that simple though is it? As said above, there are many religions and many gods (or versions of the same god). So to make your exam example more accurate: You're given an exam and also 50 sheets with answers on. All claim to be the 100% accurate one. You have to find which it is and you only have a short time to do so. Now that is closer to the truth.

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No! It's like this. "here I give you life a gift, cherish and use it purposefully. If you live your accordingly to your purpose and remember your creator, you will return home. You have the choice to do as you wish, I will give you free will. Now go use the intelligence I have given you and make your choices". That's not dictatorship, that's offering you a path to success, at the same time he has given you free will to use that intelligence against that successful path or use it for that path and get home. Consequences of choices are clearly told to us, if we ignore them then that's our fault.

'If you live according to you purpose' sounds an awful lot like 'if you give up your free will to do what I want'.

That's 'offering a path to sucess and punishing anyone that does not follow to the letter'... much like a dictatorship.

If a ruler of a country said to it's citizens 'do as I say or die' no one would have a problem decrying him. God says do'do as I say or die' (in a nicer way of course to make it palatable) you jump through whatever hoops he says to do.

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I don't want anyone to go to hell as a Muslim we are taught to spread the truth in order to help humanity dodge hell, so why would I think that. I think if gods judges anyone to go to hell then that's his judgement, he is the best of judges. However god has also told us what actions, choices, kind of lives that can lead to hell, so how to avoid is also shown, if we ignore it all then it's our fault. All religions talk of the same.

Again, there's the problem again. 'All religions talk of the same' but they don't do they? Each religion is different and has a different moral code (with a different list of things that lead to death/hell). Again all say they have the most accurate list. Of course there's alot of crossovers on the list (murder being the most obvious) but the lists aren't 100% the same.

On top of that each religion has sepeate factions within itself, all with slight differences but again all claiming to be 'the truth'. For example Christianity has Catholics, protestants, mormons, adventists etc all of which believe in the same basic belief but each one has differences from the others.

I try and be a good person, but what you (and others) constantly claim is that goodness means nothing to god. Religious belief matters more than goodness, kindness, compassion etc to god andm, to be honest, that disturbs me. Personally I'd rather go to hell than serve a god with such a messed up sense of priorities.

If god is the perfect judge you claim him to be, than religion shouldn't come into the judgement process at all. What a person does is far more important than what they believe.

Edited by shadowhive, 25 February 2012 - 12:17 AM.

[Lion6969]

shadowhive, on 25 February 2012 - 12:09 AM, said:

Oh I understand that. What I don't comprehend is a judge that has no concept on morality. A judge that thinks everything bought before them deserves one punishment (regardless of what it may be) isn't a good judge. It's that simple.

What morality, if morality exists then it can only do so with a god. If there is a god then our morality is in anchored in god as he is the only thing that makes morality objective, like you are doing above. You question gods morality based on your own belief which is that morality is subjective and not objective, then on what grounds do you have a higher moral authority than a god who is perfect and best in everything from morals to judgement.

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Have it easy? No. Genocide and atheism are to completely different things. They are not treated as equal by any means, yet you're ok with a 'perfect judge' treating them as such.

You obviously did not read what I said. I never said they are the same or equal. I clearly said both will be judged by god, but also both are open to his mercy till the past breath. How god judges between them or what they get is upto him, if a god exists logically he would be the best judge, the most just etc etc etc. So either way your argument hold no logical validity.

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We have, but I think it's an impotant point to bring up.

A religion that calls god a perfect judge but who also only has two options available to him (heaven and hell) sounds more questionable than truthful.

Hell or heaven are your abodes once you live this short life. Hell will have varying punishments apt for the crime or sin or disbelief. However a perfect judge decides to judge or exact punishment is down to him, if he is perfect and a god then he can't get it wrong can he?

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IF judgement arrives I'd want god (this supposedly perfect judge as you claim) to look at me as a person. Religion does not automatically make a person good, yet is frequently given as a 'get out of jail fee' card to get passed god (or to get god to look more favorably on you).

You keep applying human qualities in god, if one exists he knows you better than yourself, hence all knowing. Thus why would he need to look at you as a person, who says he won't, he might even say, did x y z truths not reach you, if they did, then what you gonna say "look at me as a person". Ofcourse not, neither will you be truthful and say I did recurve x y and z but I did not agree with it or with you, now please let me into heaven, don't think that's gonna work. At the end of the day how god judges us is irrelevant, if he exists he is perfect and the best of judges so he don't get things wrong.

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I don't accept anything from anyone as gospel, certainly when it pertains to god. That's why I'm so skeptical when it comes to religion. I'm not willing to buy what anyone says about god at face value, regardless of who they are or what revelations they may claim to have had.

That's good, but after many conversations with you I have noticed you reflect, but with no implications or effect. That's quite common with most. You see if you studied logic and philosophy you could apply other standards of knowledge and realise how to determine false gods from descriptions of a true god. For example, if someone is telling you that they are god, or god is in them, you realise immediately the logical and philosophical flaws in such a notion. It then becomes easier, until you reach a basic concept of god, ie singular, the cause, unique, metaphysical, etc, basic definition. Then see who or what relate to such a description, in it's entirety.

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It's not that simple though is it? As said above, there are many religions and many gods (or versions of the same god). So to make your exam example more accurate: You're given an exam and also 50 sheets with answers on. All claim to be the 100% accurate one. You have to find which it is and you only have a short time to do so. Now that is closer to the truth.

That sounds like multiple choice

It's not like that all. You have an exam, but before any exam you will revise (research), then apply your revision. However the examiner has provided all the answers as well. Even if they were 100% accurate, you would not know any better if you had not studied or revised for the test. With the latter you can determine yeah these answers are right, make sense, logical, accurate based on my revision (research etc).

However I do understand your sentiment it's seems daunting. I had the same feeling early days, but soon as you truly get in to it, you will start dismissing most as hog wash ie Demi gods, man gods, trinities, etc etc.

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'If you live according to you purpose' sounds an awful lot like 'if you give up your free will to do what I want'.

That's 'offering a path to sucess and punishing anyone that does not follow to the letter'... much like a dictatorship.

How is living and fulfilling your purpose negate free will? You choose to fulfil the purpose or not, the choice means you have free will. So your free will is not given up, your rebellion is the result of excercising your free will.

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If a ruler of a country said to it's citizens 'do as I say or die' no one would have a problem decrying him. God says do'do as I say or die' (in a nicer way of course to make it palatable) you jump through whatever hoops he says to do.

that's not the same. Firstly it's god asking you the one who gave u breath and life, not a man like me and you. Secondly we will all die, so god is not asking or demand anything he simply states the paths you can take and the consequences of your choices. You make the choices and he does not force you.

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Again, there's the problem again. 'All religions talk of the same' but they don't do they? Each religion is different and has a different moral code (with a different list of things that lead to death/hell). Again all say they have the most accurate list. Of course there's alot of crossovers on the list (murder being the most obvious) but the lists aren't 100% the same.

Core teachings of all these faiths are identical, worship one god, remember him and show gratitude, live a righteous life etc etc etc. There are few differences but most of them have more similarities. That's because the original source was the same, yeah over time alot of them corrupted or lost, but even then within them there are truths which are consistent with each other (meaning different faiths).

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On top of that each religion has sepeate factions within itself, all with slight differences but again all claiming to be 'the truth'. For example Christianity has Catholics, protestants, mormons, adventists etc all of which believe in the same basic belief but each one has differences from the others.

True, factions a created by men, the ones you describe as power hungry and those who manipulate religion a control tool. Most factions are easy to see through. Your example above is true of Christianity and other faiths too. This usually happens when free interpretation is applied and self created truths.

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I try and be a good person, but what you (and others) constantly claim is that goodness means nothing to god. Religious belief matters more than goodness, kindness, compassion etc to god andm, to be honest, that disturbs me. Personally I'd rather go to hell than serve a god with such a messed up sense of priorities.

What are you being good for? For yourself, those around you etc? Why? When in your eyes goodness and badness are subjective like morality. So what's the purpose to be morally upright? Why should you care? Empathy, but why? For who? It's subjective, so what value has your goodness or morals got without god? I will say it again, you probably believe there is a god but don't like him, you try and act with higher morality when you claim it's merely subjective. Then authority do you have to crticise god after you simply reject him based on a foolish notion that your morally upright than god is…it's ironic and illogical my good friend.

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If god is the perfect judge you claim him to be, than religion shouldn't come into the judgement process at all. What a person does is far more important than what they believe.

actions and beliefs are important one can lead to the other and vica versa.

[shadowhive]

Lion6969, on 25 February 2012 - 04:25 AM, said:

What morality, if morality exists then it can only do so with a god. If there is a god then our morality is in anchored in god as he is the only thing that makes morality objective, like you are doing above. You question gods morality based on your own belief which is that morality is subjective and not objective, then on what grounds do you have a higher moral authority than a god who is perfect and best in everything from morals to judgement.

That's not what I'm getting it (and no, I don't think of myself as higher than god).

What I'm getting at is yes, there are good and bad things, however somthings are worse than others (just as some things are better than others). I'd have thought that was obvious.

What is at fault here is that god doesn't seem to see things that way. Things are good or baad and they all have the same value. That's what I find flawed, that a supposedly perfect judge can't tell that one thing is worse than another.

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You obviously did not read what I said. I never said they are the same or equal. I clearly said both will be judged by god, but also both are open to his mercy till the past breath. How god judges between them or what they get is upto him, if a god exists logically he would be the best judge, the most just etc etc etc. So either way your argument hold no logical validity.

I find that concept of mercy to be rather odd, mainly because it's another demonstration of how belief matters more to god than deed.

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Hell or heaven are your abodes once you live this short life. Hell will have varying punishments apt for the crime or sin or disbelief. However a perfect judge decides to judge or exact punishment is down to him, if he is perfect and a god then he can't get it wrong can he?

Again, why should disbelief be punished automatically? Doesn't sound like this 'just' god is too just to me. Sounds like he's more vain.

That's a matter of opinion.

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You keep applying human qualities in god, if one exists he knows you better than yourself, hence all knowing. Thus why would he need to look at you as a person, who says he won't, he might even say, did x y z truths not reach you, if they did, then what you gonna say "look at me as a person". Ofcourse not, neither will you be truthful and say I did recurve x y and z but I did not agree with it or with you, now please let me into heaven, don't think that's gonna work. At the end of the day how god judges us is irrelevant, if he exists he is perfect and the best of judges so he don't get things wrong.

You keep applying human qualities to god (that he is just, moral, loving), why is it ok for you to do so, yet wrong for me to?

If he is all knowing then he'd know if such things wouldn't have reached me wouldn't he? The curius thing hee is, you keep saying he'd judge people, which does require looking at people as they are. (By which I mean looking at their actions and thoughts, not just saying 'oh Lion is a Muslim, he gets in!'.)

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That's good, but after many conversations with you I have noticed you reflect, but with no implications or effect. That's quite common with most. You see if you studied logic and philosophy you could apply other standards of knowledge and realise how to determine false gods from descriptions of a true god. For example, if someone is telling you that they are god, or god is in them, you realise immediately the logical and philosophical flaws in such a notion. It then becomes easier, until you reach a basic concept of god, ie singular, the cause, unique, metaphysical, etc, basic definition. Then see who or what relate to such a description, in it's entirety.

Ok, let me break things down for you as I see them. I see religion and you know what I see? I see manmade systems that manipulate the vulnerable and use fear (the fear of hell) as a system of control. I don't see that as a good thing or something that we as humans need.

Now as to god, I think it's obvious (and you can see this from past discussionss) that we have invented gods. Greek, Roman, Egyptian etc are all obviously inventions. I do not see the current worshiped deities as anything more than just an evolution of that, all man made as means of control.

However, that's not to say I rule out a god existing, I just don't see enough evidence that such an entity cares about us. I have seen a lot of evidence that people WANT god to exist, but that's not proof.

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That sounds like multiple choice

It's not like that all. You have an exam, but before any exam you will revise (research), then apply your revision. However the examiner has provided all the answers as well. Even if they were 100% accurate, you would not know any better if you had not studied or revised for the test. With the latter you can determine yeah these answers are right, make sense, logical, accurate based on my revision (research etc).

However I do understand your sentiment it's seems daunting. I had the same feeling early days, but soon as you truly get in to it, you will start dismissing most as hog wash ie Demi gods, man gods, trinities, etc etc.

It sounds like multiple choice because it is. After all you have to decide which group of people that claim to have god's word are truthful.

If the answers are presented to you like that, then it makes your revision (and the test itself) utterly devoid of meaning as I said earlier.

It is daunting but you know what? I would rather live my life as best I can, trying to be as good a person as I can, rather than trying to please a potentially man made entity that may or may not exist.

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How is living and fulfilling your purpose negate free will? You choose to fulfil the purpose or not, the choice means you have free will. So your free will is not given up, your rebellion is the result of excercising your free will.

Because it's something claiming to know your purpose. Is it god telling you what that purpose is? No, it's a holy scripture. We've been through this before, but religious texts don't equal god.

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that's not the same. Firstly it's god asking you the one who gave u breath and life, not a man like me and you. Secondly we will all die, so god is not asking or demand anything he simply states the paths you can take and the consequences of your choices. You make the choices and he does not force you.

Is it really god that's asking you, or is it a text written by man? Again, two different things.

Secondly, yes we all die, but god's dangling heaven and hell as the two only options afterward and hell always comes off as a threat. You famously say religion is about 'no compulsion' but the fear of hell certainly qualifies as compulsion from where I'm sitting! (As does the promise of heaven.)

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Core teachings of all these faiths are identical, worship one god, remember him and show gratitude, live a righteous life etc etc etc. There are few differences but most of them have more similarities. That's because the original source was the same, yeah over time alot of them corrupted or lost, but even then within them there are truths which are consistent with each other (meaning different faiths).

'Worship one god' etc again, makes god sound awfully vain. Why does god need the ego boost? Some have shared qualities but again, it's all about control and the best way to control people is stick god on a set of rules. Also some rules just make common sense.

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True, factions a created by men, the ones you describe as power hungry and those who manipulate religion a control tool. Most factions are easy to see through. Your example above is true of Christianity and other faiths too. This usually happens when free interpretation is applied and self created truths.

Far too many people have done that to make any religion viable to me. Religious texts are far too open to interpretation which leads to me to question if a 'perfect' god would really put his name to any of them.

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What are you being good for? For yourself, those around you etc? Why? When in your eyes goodness and badness are subjective like morality. So what's the purpose to be morally upright? Why should you care? Empathy, but why? For who? It's subjective, so what value has your goodness or morals got without god? I will say it again, you probably believe there is a god but don't like him, you try and act with higher morality when you claim it's merely subjective. Then authority do you have to crticise god after you simply reject him based on a foolish notion that your morally upright than god is…it's ironic and illogical my good friend.

For those around me. You know, people I can see, touch, interact with and care about. I'm not being good to please an entity to get a fast track to heaven. I'm not god because god tells me to be.

Strangely me doing good for the people around me now solely for them is considered bad to you. Whereas you doing good to get brownie points with god so you can get to heaven (in other wrds for a selfish reason) is considered better.

I explained what I meant about goodness and badness. Simply put some bad things are worse than others (ie stabbing someone is worse than lying to someone). Some good things are better than others (ie caring for someone who is ill is better than giving a homeless person some spare change).

I don't reject god, I reject man made gods. There's a difference.

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actions and beliefs are important one can lead to the other and vica versa.

My point was simply being a person of x religion shouldn't get you better thought of than anyone else.

Edited by shadowhive, 25 February 2012 - 06:18 AM.

[Lion6969]

Shadow get back to you soon pal