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Religion & Science Are Closer Than You Think


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#31    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 12:36 PM

View PostIamsSon, on 14 March 2013 - 01:40 AM, said:

It actually is not the only compatible theory, or even the best; it's simply the one that best fits naturalism/scientism.

What is this best theory then?  It's not just 'simply' that evolution best fits naturalism, it's that there is no evidence of anything besides nature.  Regardless, how has the fact that there is a better theory eluded the multitude of religious scientists and biologists?  What has this alternative theory better explained than the current theory of evolution?  I never really understand this line of argumentation, although it isn't that unusual, because there is nothing preventing any scientist from doing the research and work necessary to develop a better theory (and there are enormous rewards if someone could) under a non-naturalistic framework.

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#32    Frank Merton

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 12:51 PM

One of the foundations of Buddhist thinking is causation.  They call it karma but it amounts to the same thing (although karma is sometimes taken further than a modern rationalist would).  Whatever happens has a prior cause.  It is also fundamental to Thomist theology.

But why?  All we can say for sure is that every time we have observed A, soon after B happens, so we infer that A cause B.  Is that acceptable?  For practical purposes, yes, we can have high certainty that if we have tried something often enough and never seen an exception, then there is a causal connection.  

This assumption seems to be wired into us.  People just don't accept the idea that it is not logical but just empirical -- this assumption that two events are causally related. (Of course we sometimes identify false causal relationships -- a third independent cause or something like that, but these are just compications -- the concept remains).

Clearly this is how the universe, at least for things in our general range of size, works.  It is the basis of scientific "laws."  

I don't like philosophy name-dropping, but in this case I kinda have to so people won't think I'm claiming this as my idea; Hume pointed all this out ages ago.  That two things happening in this sort of way that we identify as causal really is our interpretation, what we assign to it, and it might as well be sheer magic.


#33    Rafterman

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 03:18 PM

View Postscowl, on 11 March 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

The vast majority of Christians couldn't even tell you in what order the God they worship created the universe, as written in the book their religion is based on.

I guess you don't need to know these trivial things to call yourself a Christian.

That's certainly true as well.

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#34    scowl

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:39 PM

View PostIamsSon, on 14 March 2013 - 01:40 AM, said:

It actually is not the only compatible theory, or even the best; it's simply the one that best fits naturalism/scientism.

No, it's the only compatible theory we have at the moment. It explains the fossil records, it explains genetic transmission and uses  genetic mutation as a means for adaptation. A theory must reflect fossil records, it must explain adaptation and it must use genetic transmission. Competing theories claim one or more of these don't exist.

Quote

Heck, there isn't even just ONE theory of descent from a common ancestor, there are several; so which one are you referring to?  Neo Darwinism? punctuated equilibrium?

The one I stated in the previous paragraph.

Quote

If we were to find a starship buried under tons of dirt, we would NOT assume it was a natural construct, we would assume it had been designed and constructed by intelligent beings.  The fact we did not know who these beings were or how they had done it would in no way invalidate the obvious observation that it was the result of intelligent, purposeful design.  But somehow, although what that first life form was, or how it came to be is "not covered" and not needed for the "theory of descent from a common ancestor" it is somehow integral to know who the designer was.  That is not a scientific requirement, it is a religious requirement.

Your hypothetical example has nothing to do with evolution.


#35    Supersquatch

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:33 PM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 07 March 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

We found that only 11 percent of Americans belong to religions openly rejecting evolution or our Big Bang.

According to a 2008 Gallup poll, 44% of Americans believe "God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so."

View PostIamsSon, on 08 March 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

There is no conflict between science and religion.  There is a conflict between the religion of evolution and other religions.

Cosmology, geology, plate tectonics, biology, and astronomy all disprove God, not just evolution. And evolution isn't a religion, it's a scientific theory. It's easy to mistake passion for evidence and fundamentalism, though, even though one will never change their mind.

Edited by SUPERSquatch, 18 March 2013 - 09:34 PM.

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#36    scowl

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 04:43 PM

View PostSUPERSquatch, on 18 March 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:

According to a 2008 Gallup poll, 44% of Americans believe "God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so."

Good news! As of last year it's up slightly to 46%.

Once they get a majority, we can finally outlaw that satanic Theory of Evolution which is turning good kids against God!


#37    White Crane Feather

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 02:23 PM

View Postscowl, on 19 March 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:



Good news! As of last year it's up slightly to 46%.

Once they get a majority, we can finally outlaw that satanic Theory of Evolution which is turning good kids against God!
Oh dear god... It might just be possible. I will move from this country if that day comes.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#38    scowl

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 08:17 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 21 March 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

Oh dear god... It might just be possible. I will move from this country if that day comes.

I love it when people from Europe visit America for the first time. They only know America from the movies and television shows which are full of educated characters. They are shocked to find that a large percentage of Americans are only vaguely aware of how science works and some even have a poor opinion of it, yet they use computers, cell phones and high definition televisions like they came out of nowhere.

A shocking number of Americans believe that the Theory of Evolution has been entirely rejected in academia and is on the garbage pile with ether waves and bloodletting. In the 80's a lot of high schools didn't teach Evolution. They just avoided the topic completely. I thought that things had improved but that 2012 Gallup poll suggests things haven't changed at all.


#39    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 07:29 PM

View PostMagicjax, on 13 March 2013 - 10:53 PM, said:

I feel that religion in fact our (man kind) first attempt at science. It's basically a hypothesis. The problem is its a hypothesis that can never be truly tested. It can never become a scientific theory.

Well you all look trough science googles. Religion try to answer question why? and science on question how?
When you look on religion you must to move from Temple of Darwinism.

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#40    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 07:35 PM

View PostRafterman, on 11 March 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

It's easy to forget that the vast majority of Christians embrace science, evolution, the Big Bang, etc. etc.  It's only a small percentage of fringe young earth types that don't and unfortunately they get most of the press on these issues.

I've lived and worked in college towns most of my life and anytime I was in a church I would always see many  faculty members from the sciences in attendance.

Like they missed something.

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#41    White Crane Feather

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 01:58 AM

View Postscowl, on 21 March 2013 - 08:17 PM, said:



I love it when people from Europe visit America for the first time. They only know America from the movies and television shows which are full of educated characters. They are shocked to find that a large percentage of Americans are only vaguely aware of how science works and some even have a poor opinion of it, yet they use computers, cell phones and high definition televisions like they came out of nowhere.

A shocking number of Americans believe that the Theory of Evolution has been entirely rejected in academia and is on the garbage pile with ether waves and bloodletting. In the 80's a lot of high schools didn't teach Evolution. They just avoided the topic completely. I thought that things had improved but that 2012 Gallup poll suggests things haven't changed at all.
Really? I must live in an isolated suburb because it dosnt seem like that here. Even my jr. High kids seem to be pretty well aware.

Edited by White Crane Feather, 13 October 2013 - 01:59 AM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-




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