71 replies to this topic

[TheProphetMark]

Atheist would say 'God is God, if he wanted to communicate with us he could do so easily' but they never think to question why God doesn't work that way and now I think I know why he doesn't.

When I think of God, I think of God as somebody who doesn't want to make it too obvious to people that he is in fact 'real'. Why? Well, look at it this way. If he were to tell everybody on this planet that he is real that would completely defeat the purpose of his entire game so to speak. Why? Because if everybody knows he is real, everybody would try to change the way they act so they could have eternal life with him. God doesn't want those who 'act' he wants those who are actually 'real decent people' to enter his kingdom. That's why it all comes down to faith.

At least that's the way I see it and I didn't realize how hard it would be to put it in words and even the paragraph above hardly make sense of the point I'm trying to bring across. I'm sure you members are intelligent, so I trust you all to understand where I'm coming from.

It's like being a parent. Your child is bad, so you tell them if you be a good boy I will buy you a Xbox 360 next month so they act on their best behavior all month only to start acting up all over again straight after receiving their Xbox. I guess the analogy makes more sense.

I'm not a religious person but I do believe in God. I'm not perfect either and yes I'm a sinner through both thoughts and actions. Nobody is perfect but God loves all of us. As for the Bible, I believe in it but I also believe that it could have possibly been re-written so I look at the Bible as 'black and white with shades of gray', gray being the truth.

Edited by TheProphetMark, 18 November 2012 - 08:21 PM.

[Pupp3t]

The relationships between God and Man are similar to those of Parents and children.
If people are given a gift, without actually working for it, their behaviour doesn't change. (Experience)
Same goes for those who believe that if God comes to Earth in His Glory, we're going to be lazy and expect God to fix our problems.

[Darkwind]

There are lot of "real decent people" out there who don't believe in god and a lot of real indecent people who do. I think the criteria is flawed. If you want to fill heaven with decent people shouldn't the criteria be they be decent people whether or not the believe in a god?

[TheProphetMark]

Darkwind, on 18 November 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

There are lot of "real decent people" out there who don't believe in god and a lot of real indecent people who do. I think the criteria is flawed. If you want to fill heaven with decent people shouldn't the criteria be they be decent people whether or not the believe in a god?

Interesting question that would make a lot of people think, even me. But I like to think God as a forgiving loving God. Those who do good deeds and are decent people regardless if they believe in God or not will earn a place in his kingdom. I don't see why God would throw them hell for not believing, not after everything that goes on in the World it's no wonder why people are skeptical.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

I always think of it as the Unfathomable trying to communicate with the Incomprehending.
How hard is it for a fully grown human to have a conversation with a baby or a toddler? Think of it from the perspective of an omnipotent being and you've got the reason God speaks in metaphor, symbol and agents.

[Artaxerxes]

If we knew absolutely for certain that there was a God and life after death we might not mourn quite as much when someone we love dies.  If we knew absolutely for certain that one day we would be reunited with them in Heaven the death of someone we love would cease to be the powerful lesson it is in what it means and how it feels to be separate, something that can't be learned in heaven doe to those overwhelming feelings of oneness and connectedness so many near death experiencers talk about.

This earth life is a school and we are here to learn a few simple lessons, what time and space look and feel like, what it means and how it feels to be separate, and make memories of what it felt like to inhabit a body and live in a 3 dimensional + 1 time Universe.  There is a close connection between emotion and memory.  The more emotional the experience the more powerful and long lasting the memory it creates.  The lessons we learn here have to be the way they are because they have to be powerful enough to overcome the physics of the other side, which is very different from this side.  The physics of heaven is very different than the physics of our universe.  It is the physics one might expect if one were living on or in a piece of holographic film.   I know this from reading thousands of near death experiences.

We learn the things here that can't be learned in heaven.  Because there is no separation in heaven it has to be learned here.   This side is the holographic projection, the place of separation, and the other side, the place we call heaven, is the original holographic film that our universe is a projection from.  

Google "holographic universe."   And then follow the links.

Edited by Artaxerxes, 18 November 2012 - 09:39 PM.

[Alienated Being]

Wearer of Hats, on 18 November 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

I always think of it as the Unfathomable trying to communicate with the Incomprehending.
How hard is it for a fully grown human to have a conversation with a baby or a toddler? Think of it from the perspective of an omnipotent being and you've got the reason God speaks in metaphor, symbol and agents.

Sounds like something out of a book. I just can't put my finger on it, however...

Pupp3t, on 18 November 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

The relationships between God and Man are similar to those of Parents and children.
If people are given a gift, without actually working for it, their behaviour doesn't change. (Experience)
Same goes for those who believe that if God comes to Earth in His Glory, we're going to be lazy and expect God to fix our problems.

Well, what about those whom have worked themselves into the ground (metaphorically speaking) in order to receive a sign from god, and alas, they have not received one? What about those who contribute and do nothing for society, yet have claimed that god has cured them of cancer? What about those Jews who worked in concentration camps while praying every single night for their god to help them, yet received no answer, and died the next morning as a result of being gased by Nazis...

Edited by Alienated Being, 18 November 2012 - 10:19 PM.

[HavocWing]

Maybe because he is a coward?

[ranrod]

TheProphetMark, on 18 November 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

Interesting question that would make a lot of people think, even me. But I like to think God as a forgiving loving God. Those who do good deeds and are decent people regardless if they believe in God or not will earn a place in his kingdom. I don't see why God would throw them hell for not believing, not after everything that goes on in the World it's no wonder why people are skeptical.

Firstly, you're presupposing the god of Abraham being the 'real' one from the infinite choices and the infinite possible motives for that god or those gods to 'want' us to be a certain way.  Secondly, covered in a semi-recent thread, there is no way a god or gods could prove what they are.  Lastly, I still haven't heard where people get the notion of the god of Abraham being a forgiving loving God.  I presume you have never read the bible.  The god depicted in the OT is cruel, flawed, violent, spiteful, jealous, makes one mistake after another, and demands unspeakable evil from his people.

[ShadowSot]

I take issue with this, if we assume the Abrahamic god he wasn't shy at all about appearing and casting judgement.

[Tiggs]

I've always thought that there was a better argument to be made from the free will perspective:

If God appears and all doubt is then removed about his existence - is worshiping him really a question of free will any more?

[ShadowSot]

Tiggs, on 19 November 2012 - 01:09 AM, said:

I've always thought that there was a better argument to be made from the free will perspective:

If God appears and all doubt is then removed about his existence - is worshiping him really a question of free will any more?

how does this square with the stories of the OT and NT?

[ranrod]

Tiggs, on 19 November 2012 - 01:09 AM, said:

I've always thought that there was a better argument to be made from the free will perspective:

If God appears and all doubt is then removed about his existence - is worshiping him really a question of free will any more?

Tell that to Adam and Eve

[Pupp3t]

Alienated Being, on 18 November 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

Sounds like something out of a book. I just can't put my finger on it, however...


Well, what about those whom have worked themselves into the ground (metaphorically speaking) in order to receive a sign from god, and alas, they have not received one? What about those who contribute and do nothing for society, yet have claimed that god has cured them of cancer? What about those Jews who worked in concentration camps while praying every single night for their god to help them, yet received no answer, and died the next morning as a result of being gased by Nazis...

    I know it sounds horrible when you put it that way. But think about it.
We humans, with our free will and immense power of will, could have prevented all bad things from happening. Did we? Psshh, no. God wanted us to fix these problems by ourselves because He can't be in our business to begin with. Free will prevents Him from intervening a lot, and allows us to become one like Him. But of course, we didn't do anything about it. People are too stubborn in their own ideals, trying to feed their Pride, and we have a bad issue on our hands. The only thing I can say to the poor victims who die EVERY DAY is that now they no longer suffer the pain of this world.
    For those who work hard into the ground, yet receive no sign? Simple. It hasn't come to them yet. Either that, or He placed help nearby and we haven't taken notice of it.
What about those who contribute and do nothing for society, yet have claimed that god has cured them of cancer?
  Those who contribute and do nothing for society...? Okay, I'll explain the part with nothing for society.
It only seems like these people do nothing for society because we only look at them from one view. They could be secretly helping chldren in an orphanage somewhere in a war-torn nation, and we wouldn't even know it. Which society? The one revolving around OUR ideals, or the world in general? Because any small thing can make a difference for the world.
   Regardless, everyone deserves a chance in Heaven. Whether they believe in a God or not, as DarkWind said.

[Tiggs]

ranrod, on 19 November 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

Tell that to Adam and Eve

I don't think that the concept of free will is particularly limited to Gods of the Abrahamic variety.

However - with Adam and Eve - you're in pre-fall / post-fall territory there - where pre-fall Adam and Eve could freely look upon God and post-fall they were both kicked out of the Garden, never to look upon God's face directly, again.

ShadowSot, on 19 November 2012 - 01:13 AM, said:

how does this square with the stories of the OT and NT?

So so.

God definitely appeared to those who believed in him, but It's not like God appeared to the Pharaoh directly to demand the Israelite's be allowed to leave Egypt, for example.