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And the Sun Stood Still


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#16    Jor-el

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 11:21 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 09 March 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

Hey Jorel, if literally God fought for Israel that day, would He need to disturb the natural sequence of the Cosmos to stop the earth? Please!!! He could have done the whole thing withtout a cosmological catastrophe. The text was simply embellished many years later into the chronicles of the heroes of Israel. It is from this kind of literal interpretation that atheists laugh at the naivite of theists.

Ben

But he did disturb the natural sequence of events, he killed the majority of the Amorite army with giant hailstones on a clear and cloudless day that lasted 24 hours.

Now did he really need to stop anything but the rotation of the earth to provide the extra day or is this merely indicative that something very strange and unnatural happened on that particular day?

Maybe what we have here is exactly what Veliokovsky described, a comet breaking up over the atmosphere, not only lighting up the day and the night but showering its remnants over an army after it burst in the sky overhead.

I'm reminded of the Tanguska event but in a more moderate scale, the effects howver would be quite similar to what was described in Joshua 10.

Suddenly in the north sky… the sky was split in two, and high above the forest the whole northern part of the sky appeared covered with fire… At that moment there was a bang in the sky and a mighty crash… The crash was followed by a noise like stones falling from the sky, or of guns firing. The earth trembled

http://science.nasa....30jun_tunguska/

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#17    Ben Masada

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:31 PM

View PostJor-el, on 09 March 2013 - 10:57 PM, said:

But the text does NOT state in any manner whatsoever that the 5 kings are being referred to in any way when it states the sun stood still. Is that not an embelishment on the part of Maimonides in his explanation?

The text was given in a parable/allegory. The explanation is never given by the writer. It is supposed to be found in the mind of the enlightened reader by dissecting the context. For example, when Jesus spoke his parable about the Richman and Lazarus, he didn't have to explain that he meant to convey the importance of the Law in the life of man. That the torment in hell suffered by the Richman was only one of the imaginary steps in the  ladder of the understanding of what he meant to covey. (Luke 16:29-31)

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#18    Jor-el

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:33 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 11 March 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

The text was given in a parable/allegory. The explanation is never given by the writer. It is supposed to be found in the mind of the enlightened reader by dissecting the context. For example, when Jesus spoke his parable about the Richman and Lazarus, he didn't have to explain that he meant to convey the importance of the Law in the life of man. That the torment in hell suffered by the Richman was only one of the imaginary steps in the  ladder of the understanding of what he meant to covey. (Luke 16:29-31)

Ben

Where does it state that this is a parable or an allegory?

I looked, I didn't find any indication in the text of any such thing. Linguistically it is given as a historical fact.

Luke 16 contains a number of parables and words of wisdom, none of them can be taken as historical or real even though they could be popular stories of the time. Jesus could have used actual occurences or even invented them to share a moral or theological point, which was clearly his intent. The intent of the text shapes it that way, just as the intent of Joshua 9 and 10 shapes the text that is written down, it is clear from the text itself that we are dealing with historical fact rather than merely a story or a parable. That is expressed in the way the author wrote the text and the content he used to fill it.

Whether one chooses to believe it or not is beside the question here.

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#19    Ben Masada

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 08:15 PM

View PostJor-el, on 11 March 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

Where does it state that this is a parable or an allegory?

I looked, I didn't find any indication in the text of any such thing. Linguistically it is given as a historical fact.

Luke 16 contains a number of parables and words of wisdom, none of them can be taken as historical or real even though they could be popular stories of the time. Jesus could have used actual occurences or even invented them to share a moral or theological point, which was clearly his intent. The intent of the text shapes it that way, just as the intent of Joshua 9 and 10 shapes the text that is written down, it is clear from the text itself that we are dealing with historical fact rather than merely a story or a parable. That is expressed in the way the author wrote the text and the content he used to fill it.

Whether one chooses to believe it or not is beside the question here.

Jorel... are you sure you mean to believe that the "parable" of the Richman and Lazarus was a historical event? I am startled! At first, I thought to take you to be joking. But wait, let me give you the benefit of the doubt and hear your answer to the following question: How would you explain that those from the side of Abraham in Heaven would want or wish to pass from there to the hell of the Richman? That's in Luke 16:26. How could that be historical? The whole thing is a parable with the intent to show the Theology or moral point that the Law must be obeyed to prevent one from metaphorically ending up in hell. Or literally from suffering the effects of his transgression.

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#20    Mr. Miyagi

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 08:24 PM

While I'm not a fan of all of this guy's vids... I though I'd offer this vid as an addition... Physics is a b****...




#21    Jor-el

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 10:26 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 12 March 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:

Jorel... are you sure you mean to believe that the "parable" of the Richman and Lazarus was a historical event? I am startled! At first, I thought to take you to be joking. But wait, let me give you the benefit of the doubt and hear your answer to the following question: How would you explain that those from the side of Abraham in Heaven would want or wish to pass from there to the hell of the Richman? That's in Luke 16:26. How could that be historical? The whole thing is a parable with the intent to show the Theology or moral point that the Law must be obeyed to prevent one from metaphorically ending up in hell. Or literally from suffering the effects of his transgression.

Ben

Hmmm, a slight confusion on your part there, I think. I never stated that Luke16 was anything but a parable, read back please.

I stated categorically though that Joshua was NOT a parable. It was written and understood to be historical fact by the way the author wrote it and the wording that was used. In no way can Joshua 10 be construed as a parable. I thought what I wrote was clear, sorry if I led you into confusion.

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#22    Ben Masada

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 08:48 PM

View PostMr. Miyagi, on 12 March 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

While I'm not a fan of all of this guy's vids... I though I'd offer this vid as an addition... Physics is a b****...


This is my reply to the video. IMHO, this video must have been recorded by atheists with the intent to fight the believe in the existence of God as we have famous atheists in the panel of discussions. The problem with them is that they must have no idea of metaphorical language or even of History. What happened during the conquest of Canaan by Joshua was what was happening to many other migration groups in search of a place to settle themselves in and stop wandering. So, they would destroy all  adults who could fight and children who could become fighters in the future or procreate potential enemies to the forces in power. Then, as it was normal at the time, those migratory groups were religious people who would naturally attribute to their gods the success of their achievements. That's a pious attitude which has nothing to do with God Who is not like a man to fight or to take sides in the wars of men. The same is reported in the Iliad of Homer. Zeus and other gods would do the same.

Now for the dramatic part to explore the sensibilities of the human in every man by blaming God with questions of how could God act that way by murdering children asking to for the chance to live, I see in this nothing but an atheistic appeal to quit believing in God. How about Nazi atheists who gassed and burned still alive a million and a half children during the Holocaust? The case of Joshua was thousands of years ago. The Holocaust happened only 60+ years ago. It means that God has nothing to do with evil among men but men themselves.  

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#23    Ben Masada

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 08:59 PM

View PostJor-el, on 12 March 2013 - 10:26 PM, said:

Hmmm, a slight confusion on your part there, I think. I never stated that Luke16 was anything but a parable, read back please.

I stated categorically though that Joshua was NOT a parable. It was written and understood to be historical fact by the way the author wrote it and the wording that was used. In no way can Joshua 10 be construed as a parable. I thought what I wrote was clear, sorry if I led you into confusion.

It does not have to be said: Behold, this is a parable; or, I am going to tell you a parable. The chronicler who many years later wrote about the achievements of Joshua did it in a poetical manner as to enhance his success with the supernatural. Did you see the video above? It could have never been a historical event that the sun would stand still. If it at least said that the earth stood still, it would be more probable. But the whole thing is poetic and there is nothing literal about poetry.

Okay I reread the post about the parable of the Richman and Lazarus. I was the one who took it as a parable, not you, because that's how I see it. Anyway, Jesus was Jewish and Jews do not believe in hell-fire. Therefore, it could not be less than a parable.

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#24    Jor-el

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 09:46 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 13 March 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

It does not have to be said: Behold, this is a parable; or, I am going to tell you a parable. The chronicler who many years later wrote about the achievements of Joshua did it in a poetical manner as to enhance his success with the supernatural. Did you see the video above? It could have never been a historical event that the sun would stand still. If it at least said that the earth stood still, it would be more probable. But the whole thing is poetic and there is nothing literal about poetry.

Okay I reread the post about the parable of the Richman and Lazarus. I was the one who took it as a parable, not you, because that's how I see it. Anyway, Jesus was Jewish and Jews do not believe in hell-fire. Therefore, it could not be less than a parable.

Ben

Let me put it to you just one small thing you forget, God, as far as I know continues to be God, the maker of this universe, the maker of the laws which govern this universe. If he wants to suspend the rotation of the earth for a day, he can certainly do so, or are you somehow going to argue against that?

From the outlook of the witness, the sun stood still, not the earth, even though it would have been the earth itself that ceased to rotate. The moon would also have stopped in its orbit around the earth. In effect the entire earth moon system would have been affected without touching the rest of the universe.  A time dilation bubble around the earth/moon system would explain everything within the text.

And while this would sound like science fiction, it is not impossible even within the rules of our universe.

That being said, I personally believe that this was all caused by a meteor as I proposed earlier and what we have here is a garbled version of an eyewitness account to the event which helped the Israelites conquer the promised land. In either position, God intervened in a way only he could accomplish and we can only praise him for his majesty and greatness.

PS - in regard to Luke being a parable, it is that, there is no denying it, but it is also a parable that as you say teaches us about the spiritual world. The truth of it is no less unsettling, what you plant today, you will reap in the beyond, whether you believe in hell or not is something I'll leave to you.

Edited by Jor-el, 13 March 2013 - 09:50 PM.

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#25    Paranoid Android

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 10:00 PM

View PostJor-el, on 13 March 2013 - 09:46 PM, said:

Let me put it to you just one small thing you forget, God, as far as I know continues to be God, the maker of this universe, the maker of the laws which govern this universe. If he wants to suspend the rotation of the earth for a day, he can certainly do so, or are you somehow going to argue against that?

From the outlook of the witness, the sun stood still, not the earth, even though it would have been the earth itself that ceased to rotate. The moon would also have stopped in its orbit around the earth. In effect the entire earth moon system would have been affected without touching the rest of the universe.  A time dilation bubble around the earth/moon system would explain everything within the text.

And while this would sound like science fiction, it is not impossible even within the rules of our universe.

That being said, I personally believe that this was all caused by a meteor as I proposed earlier and what we have here is a garbled version of an eyewitness account to the event which helped the Israelites conquer the promised land. In either position, God intervened in a way only he could accomplish and we can only praise him for his majesty and greatness.
A Time Dilation Bubble is an interesting idea, though in a traditional sci-fi show, the bubble is usually directed inwards, meaning that time for those on our planet would seemingly travel at exactly the same speed we normally expect, but for anyone outside the bubble time would travel at a different rate.  In order for the sun to appear to stand still for a day, the bubble would have to be confined to earth only, thus allowing time for us to travel slower, while the sun outside appears to stand still.  If it was centred around our whole solar system, the sun would appear to travel at the exact same speed it always did.

I like the idea anyway.


View PostJor-el, on 13 March 2013 - 09:46 PM, said:

PS - in regard to Luke being a parable, it is that, there is no denying it, but it is also a parable that as you say teaches us about the spiritual world. The truth of it is no less unsettling, what you plant today, you will reap in the beyond, whether you believe in hell or not is something I'll leave to you.
Not necessarily.  First, I agree with you 100% that the story here in Luke is definitely a parable.  However, as parables go, they are said/written with the purpose of conveying a key theological truth.  Just one truth per parable.  This is how it always works.  The point of this parable is not the burning inside the fire, but rather the comment that is made with the phrase "no one will believe the truth, even if someone comes back from the dead to tell it" (paraphrased, I'm not going to look up the exact wording).  In this case, the focus of the parable is not on what the state of death was like, but actually a reference to Jesus' future death, and how people are going to reject him even when he rises from the dead.  We can't begin to say from this parable that the afterlife is going to be filled with burning and pain and parched thirst that is never quenched....

Edited by Paranoid Android, 13 March 2013 - 10:01 PM.

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#26    Jor-el

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 10:33 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 13 March 2013 - 10:00 PM, said:

A Time Dilation Bubble is an interesting idea, though in a traditional sci-fi show, the bubble is usually directed inwards, meaning that time for those on our planet would seemingly travel at exactly the same speed we normally expect, but for anyone outside the bubble time would travel at a different rate.  In order for the sun to appear to stand still for a day, the bubble would have to be confined to earth only, thus allowing time for us to travel slower, while the sun outside appears to stand still.  If it was centred around our whole solar system, the sun would appear to travel at the exact same speed it always did.

I like the idea anyway.

I like the idea as well, I was playing with possibilities when this idea came up, at least it is neat in its simplicity.

Quote

Not necessarily.  First, I agree with you 100% that the story here in Luke is definitely a parable.  However, as parables go, they are said/written with the purpose of conveying a key theological truth.  Just one truth per parable.  This is how it always works.  The point of this parable is not the burning inside the fire, but rather the comment that is made with the phrase "no one will believe the truth, even if someone comes back from the dead to tell it" (paraphrased, I'm not going to look up the exact wording).  In this case, the focus of the parable is not on what the state of death was like, but actually a reference to Jesus' future death, and how people are going to reject him even when he rises from the dead.  We can't begin to say from this parable that the afterlife is going to be filled with burning and pain and parched thirst that is never quenched....

Hmm, here I would have to disagree, to use this particular parable in regard to Jesus own ressurection, is oblique and indirect. Only the last line would connect with the resurrection theme. The overall morality of the story is that you reap what you sow. This applies to both the rich man and to Lazarus both recieved their just reward.

Righteous and Wicked are separated at death and held till a great judgment. (1 Enoch 22; Pseudo Philo 32:13; 2 Baruch. 21:33; 30:1; 4 Ezra 4:35, 41; 7:32, 80, 85, 95, 101, 121)

As one can see the connection is not without precedent in Judaism, even if it is rejected today. It was especially evident in the 2nd temple period,  of wich Jesus himself was part of.

One of two conclusions can be drawn from this, a) Jesus believed as most other Jews of the day in the things related to us in the Gospels, such as separation of the righteous and the wicked till judgement, or b ) that Jesus was in the minority in what he preached to the Jewish audience.

That books like Enoch, Baruch and a number of other pseudoepigrapha written in the inter-testamental period were not only extremely popular but well recieved and accepted by most of Judaism is self evident, thus indicating that (a) is the logical answer.

Edited by Jor-el, 13 March 2013 - 10:36 PM.

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#27    Mr. Miyagi

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 11:14 PM

Yes, the guy's an atheist. That's not the reason I posted the video. The reason I posted was because of the physics behind what would actually happen if the earth suddenly stopped spinning, for whatever reason. Disregard the atheist view point there for a minute and just take a look at the physics involved of such an occurrence an what would be involved with the rest of the story as well. I thought it would be an interesting addition to the discussion.

Edited by Mr. Miyagi, 13 March 2013 - 11:14 PM.


#28    Frank Merton

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 12:00 PM

The miracle of the sun stopping in the sky cannot be taken as the sun stopping, as that means the earth stops it rotation and that causes all sorts of secondary effects.  Some other approach is needed: how about God stopping the flow of time, which among other things makes the sun appear to stop its motion.

Of course this creates the problem of how the events going on were able to continue, so we have to presume a small local bubble where time went on normally while in the rest of the universe time was stopped.


#29    Jor-el

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 06:50 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 14 March 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

The miracle of the sun stopping in the sky cannot be taken as the sun stopping, as that means the earth stops it rotation and that causes all sorts of secondary effects.  Some other approach is needed: how about God stopping the flow of time, which among other things makes the sun appear to stop its motion.

Of course this creates the problem of how the events going on were able to continue, so we have to presume a small local bubble where time went on normally while in the rest of the universe time was stopped.

Funny, I said much the same thing a few posts ago... :yes:

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#30    Frank Merton

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 06:54 PM

Well then we agree.





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