Why don't antidepressants work?

[Honeybadger]

http://www.scientificblogging.com/news_articles/why_dont_antidepressants_work

[Mistydawn]

http://www.scientifi...epressants_work

Quote: "Then she took four genetically different strains of rats and exposed them to chronic stress for two weeks.."

I will never, even if I live to be a hundred, understand the human-race. That, I DO find depressing.

[ninjadude]

to quote the first sentence "Antidepressants are ineffective in fully 50% of the people who take them.". That means that 50% ARE effective. Drug companies consider that percentage to be highly successful. So the title and premise of the article is a bit skewed. It seems the author expects 100% for some reason when most other medications are far less than 50%. The author seems to be railing against overdiagnosis of depression and overmedication and being disingenuous in the title.

[Render]

Antidepressants don't work in the way that ppl rely on a lil pill to solve all their problems.

Which is not even the goal of these chemicals. They won't give you sudden epiphanies about your life.

There function is to calm the body down and give yourself an escape window. Lowering brain activity in certain areas, so you don't run on overdrive and can eventually see the forest through the trees let's say.

Problem is that common population doesn't see it this way. That's the problem with medication, it's a quick fix for a doctor to get you out of his office and fill his and the overall pharmaceutical bank account.

Edited December 30, 2009 by Triade

[randomhit10]

Antidepressants don't work in the way that ppl rely on a lil pill to solve all their problems.

Which is not even the goal of these chemicals. They won't give you sudden epiphanies about your life.

There function is to calm the body down and give yourself an escape window. Lowering brain activity in certain areas, so you don't run on overdrive and can eventually see the forest through the trees let's say.

Problem is that common population doesn't see it this way. That's the problem with medication, it's a quick fix for a doctor to get you out of his office and fill his and the overall pharmaceutical bank account.

excellent point....i agree...people seem to want an instant solution to their problems...and if the problem is not depression then there is a great chance the med won't work anyway....

randomhit10

[NightMoon]

People need physical stimuli such as a new hobby or to go somewhere rather than taking these pills.

[ninjadude]

Antidepressants don't work in the way that ppl rely on a lil pill to solve all their problems.

Which is not even the goal of these chemicals. They won't give you sudden epiphanies about your life.

There function is to calm the body down and give yourself an escape window. Lowering brain activity in certain areas, so you don't run on overdrive and can eventually see the forest through the trees let's say.

Problem is that common population doesn't see it this way. That's the problem with medication, it's a quick fix for a doctor to get you out of his office and fill his and the overall pharmaceutical bank account.

"common population" does not prescribe anti-depressents. Doctors do. They solve very real problems. It is in no way a "quick fix". Who are these uneducated yokels that think anti-depresents give you epiphanies or think they solve all your problems?

[ninjadude]

People need physical stimuli such as a new hobby or to go somewhere rather than taking these pills.

An uneducated comment. That will not solve real depression. Depression is an organic illness that is completely treatable with anti-depressents. Physical stimuli has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

[Mr Walker]

A lot of clinical depression is caused by an organic imbalance of chemicals in the body/brain.

Just the same principle as diabetes. Appropriately prescribed drugs can rebalance the bodies natural and correct chemical balance and " miraculously" and instantly cure a lot of depression.

However there are other forms of depression that are harder to medicate and some which respond to changing environmental conditions. In many cases, though, because of the stigma of mental illness, or becuse it changes the emotional state a person has grown used to, people are reluctant to maintain their medications.

I take drugs to lower blood pressure and cholesterol. There is no stigma attached to this. Drugs can have the same curative/preventative effect on depression, and some other forms of mental illness, and should be used, albeit wisely, wherever they are effective. .

[Bunny Munro]

Most of the people in this thread have no idea what they are talking about.

I don't understand why people think it's a fault for patients to want instant relief, I know these drugs don't do that but most of the time when people seek treatment there at a point where they are getting to the end of their tether and it's could be difference between life and death.

They just don' work for some people, I have no medical explanation of the reasons for this because I'm not a doctor nor a pharmacist, but for some people they can even enhance the symptoms that they are seeking a cure for. I think it's insane that a GP is allowed to prescribe drugs that come with the warning 'May cause suicidal feelings or actions'. Countless illicit drugs are banned in an attempt to protect us from their effects such as a possible overdose, yet this seems to be allowed some how. If you've ever taken anti-depressants you'll know about the ridiculous lists of warnings and possible negative reactions to the drugs that are possible, I really do think that distributing these drugs in such a way is irresponsible, especially when there are alternatives that they don't like using just because of their possible use for recreational value.

The other factor is medications are more effective for treating chemical imbalances causing deppression rather than deppression caused by feelings, because if you don't have a reason to be depressed but feel that way anyway because of an imbalance the medication can fix this, but if some event or feeling has lead to deppression some medication can somewhat alleviate some of the symptoms but it's not going to sop you feeling sad about whatever is causing it in the first place.

At least this is what I've gathered from my experiences.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Bunny Munro

[ninjadude]

I think it's insane that a GP is allowed to prescribe drugs that come with the warning 'May cause suicidal feelings or actions'. Countless illicit drugs are banned in an attempt to protect us from their effects such as a possible overdose, yet this seems to be allowed some how. If you've ever taken anti-depressants you'll know about the ridiculous lists of warnings and possible negative reactions to the drugs that are possible, I really do think that distributing these drugs in such a way is irresponsible, especially when there are alternatives that they don't like using just because of their possible use for recreational value.

The list of possible side effects comes from testing. IF anyone had a symptom, if if unrelated to the drug trial, it has to be listed. By Law. The person taking the trial could have been a complete paranoid whatever. But he had that symptom while trialing that drug. They don't differentiate. It's dumb. But that's how it works. Most people don't really understand why they list all these possible side effects - for any drug. So no, it is in no way insane. Confusing for sure. I'm not sure what "alternatives" you have in mind.

[Black Hound]

I hate to be the bringing of not all bad news but not all antidepressants work on treating "depresssion, bi-polar, with acute depression, and lots of other things that the sides effects of various medications treat successfully. Also, some folks respond greatly to antidepressants, short term, long term, the problem is in finding the right one for any one person. Trust me, I've seen it work. Put the "right" antidepressant, include some psychotherapy, joke if you must, and you have a remiission rate, to where a person can lead anormal life, at some say 80%, other go higher but they do work!

[Bunny Munro]

The list of possible side effects comes from testing. IF anyone had a symptom, if if unrelated to the drug trial, it has to be listed. By Law. The person taking the trial could have been a complete paranoid whatever. But he had that symptom while trialing that drug. They don't differentiate. It's dumb. But that's how it works. Most people don't really understand why they list all these possible side effects - for any drug. So no, it is in no way insane. Confusing for sure. I'm not sure what "alternatives" you have in mind.

The major one's with anti-depressants are pretty common which I know from first hand experience, a significant proportion of people who have used them seem to be of the opinion that the cure is every bit as bad as the disorder they are taking them for. It's really not uncommon at all. There are countless documented cases of anti-depressants enhancing a condition instead of treating it.

Another thing I failed to mention is different people react differently to certain medication for the same condition, there are dozens of anti-depressants on the market and different people find relief in different medications. Unfortunately it's often a long process of hit and miss.

[Black Hound]

To those who inquired, I do not take them. Not to say I won't have the need tto in the future, but not now, never have. I do not prescribe them, my doctorate is in Abnormal Psychology, not Adult or Genral Psychiatry. For the very curious, check the PDR, Physician Desk Reference as it relates to all medicationns on the market, side effects, recommendations for/against use with a certain population. For the critics, sorry but I do know what I am talking about. I don't need references cited, websites, or anything else. One can help by listening, not giving advice on meds. or what worked for them or their sister or brother. You play a dangerous game when you play psychiatrist on-line.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Graveyard Hound

[ninjadude]

Another thing I failed to mention is different people react differently to certain medication for the same condition, there are dozens of //drugs// on the market and different people find relief in different medications. Unfortunately it's often a long process of hit and miss.

You just described drug therapy (with my edit). It's nothing new. One working with one's doctor to find something that works.

[Black Hound]

I haveagreat idea. What is it you might ask? I think we should get all the folks with any psychiatric disorder, heasr them describe what is wrong, assuming none are delusional or paranoid, and suggest,nay, insist that they go to a "doc" of anykind and get him to give him so meds. Regardless some meds make the mental status worse and can even lead to suicide but the ends justifies the means. We have dipped into our vast stoehouse of questionable knowledge and insight and come up with a "magic bullit" to care all over line. The AMA might not be as relieved as we are.

[Bunny Munro]

You just described drug therapy (with my edit). It's nothing new. One working with one's doctor to find something that works.

I wasn't attempting to describe anything new, I was offering an answer to the OP, something I left out of my initial post.

I'm basically just suggesting that allowing GP's to prescribe these drugs is probably irresponsible, I think they should only be prescribed by a doctor who specializes in mental health issues, it's a pretty serious issue and the majority of drugs in this category can't be prescribed by a GP at least in Australia. I believe that the health industry just underestimates the destructive effects that these drugs can have and should probably just tighten the regulations in place on them. From personal experience I've been to a doctor who prescribed me anti-depressants I had a horrible psychiatric response to after he evaluated my symptoms for three minutes (I'm really not exaggerating), I don't believe that one doctor I've seen has really evaluated their effects properly, but some have been much better than the one I specifically mentioned. I firmly believe that those who have not experienced the effects first hand can't really understand (it's a hard thing to convey to another), but over all mental health professionals have probably had the best understanding of the positive and negative effects which they have the potential for because they see the patients who are taking them on a regular basis generally and as such should be the only ones who can prescribe them.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Bunny Munro

[Black Hound]

I am going to start charging for comments in this section just like I do my clients. If you feel yourself, out of sorta, generalized pain, it might be depression, ssuicidal thoughts , acute depression, any typess of self destruction, get to a clinic ASAP, as in NOW!!! Most folks on here have no mental health training and may or not know what to say, which one is worse, I have no clue. AGAIN, meds will work, with timme and when the right one is determined. You can either strive to get better or not.

[randomhit10]

To those who inquired, I do not take them. Not to say I won't have the need tto in the future, but not now, never have. I do not prescribe them, my doctorate is in Abnormal Psychology, not Adult or Genral Psychiatry. For the very curious, check the PDR, Physician Desk Reference as it relates to all medicationns on the market, side effects, recommendations for/against use with a certain population. For the critics, sorry but I do know what I am talking about. I don't need references cited, websites, or anything else. One can help by listening, not giving advice on meds. or what worked for them or their sister or brother. You play a dangerous game when you play psychiatrist on-line.

i agree....you have a number of very valid points that we should take seriously when talking to others on line...if someone comes forward asking for help, no matter what the situation is, it should be treated as valid until such time as the person proves it is a joke or game....

randomhit10

[Black Hound]

I wasted my time asking 3 pharmacy professionals and 5 psychiatrists if I had know the answers that were going to be given.

[Render]

"common population" does not prescribe anti-depressents. Doctors do. They solve very real problems. It is in no way a "quick fix". Who are these uneducated yokels that think anti-depresents give you epiphanies or think they solve all your problems?

I think you fail to understand the fact that doctors are also just ppl...that happen to wear white coats.

It's no reason to trust them blindly.

Many many ppl die every year because doctors prescribed the wrong drug (because pharmacies push them to prescrive their drugs etc).

Even when in college certain pharmacies start giving gifts to medical students, to win them over in the long run.

doctors are also "common population". It's not like every mental problem that ever existed is written in some book. That's the problem with medicine.

When antibiotics first came on the market a lot of doctors refused to prescribe them or to partake in any way because they simply didn't believe something drawn from peniciline would be effective to treat ailments. It took a re-education of doctors in that time.

The same thing still goes on daily. Doctors refuse to consider alternative treatments because they didn't learn it in college that way.

This leads to way to many misdiagnoses and sometimes death by wrong treatment.

It's ridiculous to make the statement that pills are the answer.

Like i said , they're not designed to fix your head. They're designed to numb it all a bit so you can focus on certain parts better without being overloaded.

They're certainly being abused by the health care system. And yes, abused as a quick fix. Most definitely.

Who are these uneducated yokels that think anti-depresents give you epiphanies or think they solve all your problems?

Everyday ppl like you, who put their trust in a doctor that says "i'm gonna prescribe you these, take them for a month and we'll see how you feel."

More than enough ppl reason like this. Because the doctor should know better and they don't have the time to educate themselves in how medicine works.

Drugs are just chemicals.

If you say orange juice makes you feel euphoric, this suddenly becomes a drug.

Yet it's empty in its meaning till a certain extent.

An uneducated comment. That will not solve real depression. Depression is an organic illness that is completely treatable with anti-depressents. Physical stimuli has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

I must say, your comment is far more uneducated than the previous.

[Bunny Munro]

Triade has made some excellent points, particularly his last there is o blanket cure for deppression particularly if it's a permanent disorder rather than an individual experiencing a period of deppression. If you think that anti-depressants and physical stimuli can always solve the problem then you don't know very much about the issue. There are a significant proportion of patients who's reaction to treatments are very resistant, if it were that simple we wouldn't have psychotherapists. Depression is a very broad term and it's not like a lot of physical illnesses where response to treatment doesn't vary too greatly from patient to patient, the effects, causes and solutions for the illness are highly individualized as it comes from a range of physiological, psychological and environmental factors with many variables. However, the biggest misconception you have is that all deppression is caused by a chemical imbalance. If deppression was as simple as ninjadude has made it out to be then it would be an irrelevant disorder because it could be treated 100% of the time, but it's not there are people who don't find relief in any treatment we have discovered so far.

Triade raised a very good point which has not been discussed so far in this thread and that is that experimentation and research into treatments for deppression is still a very much ongoing process and always has been, there are a few different generations of medication even, the newest being SSRI's, doctor's have very far from a completed knowledge of the aspects of the illness and it's treatment is very much in it's infancy. The medical community as a whole still has a lot more to learn.

You play a dangerous game when you play psychiatrist on-line.

No one here is doing that, we're just discussing the issue that the topic is about. I certainly don't see anyone in here saying 'People with deppression should follow this form of treatment.

[ninjadude]

I think you fail to understand the fact that doctors are also just ppl...that happen to wear white coats.

It's no reason to trust them blindly.

I did not say trust blindly. But they did go to medical school. And possibly have a track record depending on which one you go to. So no they are not "just ppl".

It's not like every mental problem that ever existed is written in some book.

almost all are listed in the DSM-V. Do you have some medical evidence in a study that you would like to submit to a journal for peer review?

The same thing still goes on daily. Doctors refuse to consider alternative treatments because they didn't learn it in college that way.

older ones maybe. But keep in mind that "alternative" treatments are being debunked daily. Just recently a very large study showed Ginko to be essentially worthless for increasing memory.

This leads to way to many misdiagnoses and sometimes death by wrong treatment.

how does an standard treatment lead to misdiagnosis while an "alternative" one does not? I think not.

It's ridiculous to make the statement that pills are the answer.

For ORGANIC DEPRESSION, they can be very effective. It is not ridiculous by any stretch. Would you not treat an infection?

Like i said , they're not designed to fix your head. They're designed to numb it all a bit so you can focus on certain parts better without being overloaded.

They're certainly being abused by the health care system. And yes, abused as a quick fix. Most definitely.

I would say you have no idea what an antidepressant is or how it works. It is very much designed to fix your head. Nothing about "numbing". You're confusing this with other mental conditions and treatments.

Drugs are just chemicals.

no really?!! I thought it was a food. Duh. of course drugs are chemicals.

I must say, your comment is far more uneducated than the previous.

You apparently have no idea about the organic nature of depression or how anti-depressents successfully treat it. It's not just being in a "depressed mood". And it is very treatable. And is VERY different that other more nebulous mental illnesses.

[ninjadude]

Triade has made some excellent points, particularly his last there is o blanket cure for deppression particularly if it's a permanent disorder rather than an individual experiencing a period of deppression.

Of course there is no blanket cure for Depression. But anti-depressents do successfully treat organic depression. A depressed mood is not depression.

If you think that anti-depressants and physical stimuli can always solve the problem then you don't know very much about the issue.

physical stimuli has nothing to do with it. Depression is organic. And can be treated.

There are a significant proportion of patients who's reaction to treatments are very resistant, if it were that simple we wouldn't have psychotherapists.

people who are not clinically depressed.

Depression is a very broad term and it's not like a lot of physical illnesses where response to treatment doesn't vary too greatly from patient to patient, the effects, causes and solutions for the illness are highly individualized as it comes from a range of physiological, psychological and environmental factors with many variables. However, the biggest misconception you have is that all deppression is caused by a chemical imbalance. If deppression was as simple as ninjadude has made it out to be then it would be an irrelevant disorder because it could be treated 100% of the time, but it's not there are people who don't find relief in any treatment we have discovered so far.

this is the wackiest statement I seen yet. It is much less "broad" than you describe. You're describing things other than organic depression which is a treatable illness. It is not a misconception at all. It is not treated because

1) many people don't seek out treatment, doctors don't recognize it,

2) they don't have organic depression but something else,

3) don't take their medication,

4) the drug therapy may not completely treat the issue,

5) they use an "alternative" treatment that doesn't work,

6) they have some other reaction to the drug therapy - that's why there is continuing research into better and more effective drug therapies.

Simply changing your psychological or environmental factors will have no effect on organic depression, which is physical - in the brain chemicals - and can be well treated with anti-depressants. Feeling depressed is something else entirely that people can work thru with their shrink.

[Fluffybunny]

I do love the stigma related to brain chemistry. If you have a problem with a heart rhythm which has caused you cardiac arrest in the past, no one in the past would say a word should you go into the pharmacy to pick up a calcium channel blocker...if your pancreas has stopped working correctly and does not produce enough insulin, no one would give you a second glance, or hold anything against you. If you had a upper respiratory infection that your body couldn't control, everyone would remind you to finish your antibiotics...

Something goes on with the brain...something that cant be quantified...well, then you should just summon up the courage to pull your head out of your butt and stop being such a pansy...you should just exercise that mental pain away...any number of offerings...

Much like that old "put butter on a burn" too many people without direct experience or training have no idea of the bad things they do when they confuse people who are just having a bad day or bad week, with those that are indeed having something physically wrong with them. Something really wrong with them. Too many people live in misery that need not when there are options available that do work.

Why people would rather see those around them (those they claim to love) live without every possible chance for stability and some degree of happiness in order to fit their own personal agenda of what medicine should or shouldnt be is beyond me. If my loved one is miserable, and there is a treatment that offers a 50% success rate(the rate is actually higher), I would be on the phone making an appointment. But then again, I study medicine, and I have to deal with people who try to kill themselves on a regular basis. It would be worth it to me to avoid that kind of misery.