atheists object to community prayer vigil

[+OverSword]

This is not a good fight to pick for these two atheist groups IMO. They really look like idiots to be honest. Do they even know what the separation of church and state is, or what it pertains to? Certainly not this. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

What are your thoughts?

From the article:

Ocala Atheists and the American Humanist Association object to Ocala’s police chief calling for a prayer vigil tonight to unite the community against crime after a rash of recent drive-by shootings left two children and an infant injured.

“I am not opposed to the vigil,” Frances “Jean” Porgal, organizer of the Ocala Atheists and the Williston Atheists, said Tuesday. “I am opposed to the fact that the police chief and the mayor are the organizers as posted on the Ocala Police Department’s Facebook page.”

Actually, Police Chief Greg Graham and citizen activist Narvella Haynes signed a letter written on Ocala Police Department stationery and posted it on the department’s Facebook page urging citizens to attend the vigil, which begins at 6:30 p.m. on the downtown square.

Porgal said Mayor Kent Guinn’s emails in response to complaints about the vigil were “abrupt.” Porgal said her group will be protesting the vigil.

“I was not abrupt to anyone,” Guinn said Tuesday. “They have a perfect right to come down there. We have a perfect constitutional right to gather and pray. We will all exercise our First Amendment rights of free speech tomorrow night.”

She said she would never have made a “peep” if the vigil had been organized by an individual citizen or a religious group because that is their right, but Graham’s involvement concerns her.

It also concerns David Niose, legal director of the American Humanist Association, a Washington, D.C.-based national organization that defends church-state separation.

Niose wrote an email message to Graham opposing the department’s involvement, calling the endorsement a “serious constitutional violation.”

Read the rest here

[Doug1029]

How to make mountains out of mole hills. This is one time just to let the issue ride.

Doug

[Likely Guy]

As an agnostict, atheists have no right to protest against a prayer vigil. That was my initial reaction.

However, when I read, "signed a letter written on Ocala Police Department stationery and posted it on the department’s Facebook page." That's a big no-no. Are they idiots or neophytes? I'm a Canadian and know the American laws better, apparently.

OverSword, you said, "Do they even know what the separation of church and state is, or what it pertains to?" In my opinion the police department is supported by the state, so it shouldn't overtly promote something like a 'prayer vigil'. To me, that's a no-brainer.

Unless I'm too obtuse right now and I'm missing something.

[+DieChecker]

This is not a good fight to pick for these two atheist groups IMO. They really look like idiots to be honest. Do they even know what the separation of church and state is, or what it pertains to? Certainly not this. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

What are your thoughts?

From the article:

Ocala Atheists and the American Humanist Association object to Ocala’s police chief calling for a prayer vigil tonight to unite the community against crime after a rash of recent drive-by shootings left two children and an infant injured.

“I am not opposed to the vigil,” Frances “Jean” Porgal, organizer of the Ocala Atheists and the Williston Atheists, said Tuesday. “I am opposed to the fact that the police chief and the mayor are the organizers as posted on the Ocala Police Department’s Facebook page.”

Actually, Police Chief Greg Graham and citizen activist Narvella Haynes signed a letter written on Ocala Police Department stationery and posted it on the department’s Facebook page urging citizens to attend the vigil, which begins at 6:30 p.m. on the downtown square.

Porgal said Mayor Kent Guinn’s emails in response to complaints about the vigil were “abrupt.” Porgal said her group will be protesting the vigil.

“I was not abrupt to anyone,” Guinn said Tuesday. “They have a perfect right to come down there. We have a perfect constitutional right to gather and pray. We will all exercise our First Amendment rights of free speech tomorrow night.”

She said she would never have made a “peep” if the vigil had been organized by an individual citizen or a religious group because that is their right, but Graham’s involvement concerns her.

It also concerns David Niose, legal director of the American Humanist Association, a Washington, D.C.-based national organization that defends church-state separation.

Niose wrote an email message to Graham opposing the department’s involvement, calling the endorsement a “serious constitutional violation.”

Read the rest here

I don't see the problem. The police facebook, to spread community unity, could be used by any religion, or group. I'd like to see proof that the chief only allows Christian announcements on the police facebook, or non-police announcements, in which case there is something to talk about.

This is making a big deal for publicities sake by the atheist organizations. Someone has nothing better to do then patrol the internet looking for possible minor issues.

[No Censorship]

That's beyond petty and silly. They should be ashamed of their stupid selves. Let the survivors mourn in peace, you delicate POS militant atheist scum. I apologize for being so wishy-washy about my feelings on this matter.

[Michelle]

The question something like this always brings to mind is...who is it hurting? Being an atheist, in the Bible Belt, I see things like this a lot. I'm not offended and it doesn't make me feel like an outcast. I don't hide the fact that I'm an atheist with friends, but I don't make a point of it in social settings with casual acquaintances.

There is a lot to be said of mutual respect and I find you get what you project.

[+DieChecker]

I know atheists, and agnostics, who go to events like this and instead of praying, they send their "thoughts", or "good wishes", or "support"... Which all amounts to the same thing, just without the veneer of Christianity over it. I've never seen anyone who gave them trouble over it.

Edited September 25, 2014 by DieChecker

[Michelle]

I know atheists, and agnostics, who go to events like this and instead of praying, they send their "thoughts", or "good wishes", or "support"... Which all amounts to the same thing, just without the veneer of Christianity over it. I've never seen anyone who gave them trouble over it.

It's odd, to me, that people will give the utmost respect to Native American, Pagan or Buddhist beliefs, for example, and completely diss any Christian sects...no matter how benign. If I was going to rail against religion, with their God fantasies, I would probably start with the ones with the most Gods.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

I'm not sure I read, that they encouraged everyone to go, and then said, you don't have to go if you don't want to. I would object if they were heavily encouraged to go to something that is intentionally for one group. I'm not an Atheist, but as New Ager, who doesn't pray, I would probably not go, for the sake I would feel ostracized for not praying or not knowing how to pray because I never really did it growing up. The thing is, it's aimed at the community who are trying to heal and do something that is happening to the community. I agree that they have a right to free speech, and one who has a particular faith, should should not hide their faith. I would think they should hold a community meeting for all and have it advertised that everyone should do what they feel, pray, think, and just have a moment of silence. I don't know if the atheist groups are getting overworked over it or they may have a point. I think the big thing is, when you want to get the community together, ostracizing some of them who don't believe is not part of the community spirit.

[Odin11]

It's odd, to me, that people will give the utmost respect to Native American, Pagan or Buddhist beliefs, for example, and completely diss any Christian sects...no matter how benign. If I was going to rail against religion, with their God fantasies, I would probably start with the ones with the most Gods.

I think it has to do with the fact that those religions don't proselytize as much if at all, and because they are more familiar with christians. And for me, I have more in common with Native American, Pagan or Buddhist beliefs then any other.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Odin11

[Michelle]

ostracizing some of them who don't believe is not part of the community spirit.

I think it has to do with the fact that those religions don't proselytize as much if at all, and because they are more familiar with christians. And for me, I have more in common with Native American, Pagan or Buddhist beliefs then any other.

I don't feel ostracized in the least. I've been to all kinds of ceremonies with the various religions. They have all made me feel welcome and I could actively participate or not. It seems to me, being part of the community includes everyone, which means accepting everyone's beliefs, regardless if it is a majority Christian.

[TonopahRick]

Some people just want their 15 minutes in the spotlight. If people want to pray let them alone. As for using the police facebook page I don't see a problem with that. People need to lighten up a little we all have different beliefs and should respect each others beliefs. You don't have to go or be involved in any way. Jeez get a life.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

I don't feel ostracized in the least. I've been to all kinds of ceremonies with the various religions. They have all made me feel welcome and I could actively participate or not. It seems to me, being part of the community includes everyone, which means accepting everyone's beliefs, regardless if it is a majority Christian.

And I think that should be ideal. I'm glad you were made to feel accepted for who you were. I have been in military meetings, (including active duty and dependents) where it's pretty much our duty to attend and then they tell everyone to bow their head and vocally pray. I have never felt so out of place, humiliated, and alone. This was a government sanctioned situation, where I couldn't leave, and I felt ostracized. That was wrong. This wasn't the first incident either. Then again, I am reminding myself of the time, right after 9/11. I worked in a mall in Jersey, and believe it or not, only some stores were closing down for the couple of hours to have a moment of silence. My boss and I decided to go somewhere else, while our store was closed. She ended up going to Sears and watching the memorials on their tvs. I ended up going to the mall's chapel, or something. It was a place that people met for religious meetings. I think it was prodestant. I can't spell. Anyways, I had asked if I could come in, and sit down and do what I usually do. I think I even mentioned to them I was New Age. They were wonderful. They were gracious and they welcomed me in and I sat down, left to my thoughts, and I felt comforted while I dealt with it in my own way. So, it's great that this can happen, unfortunately, not all places do that, and I think everyone needs to see that all are welcomed, their beliefs or nonbeliefs and all.

[Imaginarynumber1]

It's odd, to me, that people will give the utmost respect to Native American, Pagan or Buddhist beliefs, for example, and completely diss any Christian sects...no matter how benign. If I was going to rail against religion, with their God fantasies, I would probably start with the ones with the most Gods.

I would start with the one that adopts a holier than thou attitude and constantly whines about how it's being attacked and mocked when it continues to display its backward beliefs to the world.

I never hear native americans, pagans or buddhists complain.

You know why?

THEY KEEP THEIR RELIGION TO THEMSELVES.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Imaginarynumber1

[+DieChecker]

And I think that should be ideal. I'm glad you were made to feel accepted for who you were. I have been in military meetings, (including active duty and dependents) where it's pretty much our duty to attend and then they tell everyone to bow their head and vocally pray. I have never felt so out of place, humiliated, and alone. This was a government sanctioned situation, where I couldn't leave, and I felt ostracized. That was wrong. This wasn't the first incident either. Then again, I am reminding myself of the time, right after 9/11. I worked in a mall in Jersey, and believe it or not, only some stores were closing down for the couple of hours to have a moment of silence. My boss and I decided to go somewhere else, while our store was closed. She ended up going to Sears and watching the memorials on their tvs. I ended up going to the mall's chapel, or something. It was a place that people met for religious meetings. I think it was prodestant. I can't spell. Anyways, I had asked if I could come in, and sit down and do what I usually do. I think I even mentioned to them I was New Age. They were wonderful. They were gracious and they welcomed me in and I sat down, left to my thoughts, and I felt comforted while I dealt with it in my own way. So, it's great that this can happen, unfortunately, not all places do that, and I think everyone needs to see that all are welcomed, their beliefs or nonbeliefs and all.

I had bad experiences with religion in the Military also. When I was at AIT training, I was told I could go to Church/Chapel (And stop at the PX and other stores on the way back), or I could fill sandbags. I myself, at the time, chose sandbags. It was very unfair. Go to church or be punished.

Then when I was stationed in Georgia (Fort Stewart), we had gangs of church people coming and banging on our doors a couple times a week to demand we go to a church service. I went to one, and it was fine, but the people who gave me a ride Demanded that I tithe some money, or they would not give me a ride home. So I got up and left and walked home. I was very angry with those people for a long time, and would go out of my way to confront them and try to chase them away.

Years latter I learned these weren't representative Christians, they were a$$h0les. Almost all Christians I've known everywhere but the Deep South, were fantastic nice people.

I thank you for your story.

[Michelle]

I would start with the one that adopts a holier than thou attitude and constantly whines about how it's being attacked and mocked when it continues to display its backward beliefs to the world.

I never hear native americans, pagans or buddhists complain.

You know why?

THEY KEEP THEIR RELIGION TO THEMSELVES.

Or they don't want to be mocked.

[Imaginarynumber1]

Or they don't want to be mocked.

Native Americans don't try to tell me who I can and cannot marry.

Buddhists don't intimidate and harass women in front of abortion clinics.

Pagans don't demand that their beliefs be taught in science classes.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Imaginarynumber1

[Wickian]

I understand their concern over the separation of Church and State, but harassing them over completely voluntary events is just silly. The Atheists are welcome to complain or protest a vigil of the dead if they want, but it's just going to make them look like jerks. I somehow doubt an event like this will cascade into the police and fire department bringing the words of the bible into their own handbooks.

For the record I'm and Apatheist who finds the entire concept of Atheist groups to be ridiculous.

[Michelle]

Native Americans don't try to tell me who I can and cannot marry.

Buddhists don't intimidate and harass women in front of abortion clinics.

Pagans don't demand that their beliefs be taught in science classes.

What is there to argue then? Not a single, solitary one of them would ever use their religion to their own benefit. They are pillars of their communities, except for that one, lone, Native American who hit on one of his so-called best friend's wife. I'm sure he is the exception to the rule.

But, hey, at least he didn't push his religion on anyone else... oh, wait.....did that. Maybe they are different in my neck of the woods.

[Imaginarynumber1]

What is there to argue then? Not a single, solitary one of them would ever use their religion to their own benefit. They are pillars of their communities, except for that one, lone, Native American who hit on one of his so-called best friend's wife. I'm sure he is the exception to the rule.

But, hey, at least he didn't push his religion on anyone else... oh, wait.....did that. Maybe they are different in my neck of the woods.

Never said any of those things. Nor implied them. And what the hell does some dude hitting on someone's wife have to do with anything?

I don't give crap what your religion is, but when you stand up and start yelling about it, quit crying cause I told you to shut up.

[Michelle]

Never said any of those things. Nor implied them. And what the hell does some dude hitting on someone's wife have to do with anything?

I don't give crap what your religion is, but when you stand up and start yelling about it, quit crying cause I told you to shut up.

You insinuated the people/religions you mentioned are above being human, when in fact they are human. Have no doubt, if any of them became the majority, you would see the same corruption you see in Christianity.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Michelle

[eight bits]

There is a problem that American non-believers need to come to terms with. The United States is not France. France, not the United States, guarantees its citizens a secular society. What the United States offers instead is the free exercise of religion.

That means that if people want to gather in public and pray, then this is treated the same as if people want to gather in public to discuss taxes, foreign policy or what (if anything) to do about ISIS - it is all permissible. That all of these activities are equally permissible lies at the core of American liberty - not global liberty; France is a free country, too - but American liberty.

Did the chief of police "cross a line" in endorsing the prayer vigil? Arguably so, to the minimal extent he used government resources to promote a non-governmental event. However, if it is his personal and professional opinion that people joining the vigil will make his job easier, then he is entitled to say that, to say it aloud, and to say it while identifying what his job is. Americans are free to do these things, including Americans who work for the government.

A reasonable response is to point out, openly or in a letter directly to the police chief, that you expect him to use his own stationery and social media in the future. That, and only that, is the liberty "issue" here. The vigil itself is an expression of American liberty. To protest it is OK, too, from a legal point of view, but what protesting it accomplishes is debatable and doubtful.

Americans, unlike the French, have a legal right not to keep their religion to themselves. If some Americans exercising this right offends some other Americans, then somebody needs to wrap their head around the hard truth that in a free society, you must put up with a lot.

[Davros of Skaro]

How silly and a waste.Just hold a rational vigil.Talk about places to move to that do not have people killing each other and thinking an imaginary being is going to fix it in return for focused thoughts.

[Davros of Skaro]

I had bad experiences with religion in the Military also. When I was at AIT training, I was told I could go to Church/Chapel (And stop at the PX and other stores on the way back), or I could fill sandbags. I myself, at the time, chose sandbags. It was very unfair. Go to church or be punished.

Hhhhmm.Thought control or excercise?Tough choice.

[+OverSword]

As an agnostict, atheists have no right to protest against a prayer vigil. That was my initial reaction.

However, when I read, "signed a letter written on Ocala Police Department stationery and posted it on the department’s Facebook page." That's a big no-no. Are they idiots or neophytes? I'm a Canadian and know the American laws better, apparently.

OverSword, you said, "Do they even know what the separation of church and state is, or what it pertains to?" In my opinion the police department is supported by the state, so it shouldn't overtly promote something like a 'prayer vigil'. To me, that's a no-brainer.

Unless I'm too obtuse right now and I'm missing something.

LG, It's because many people have misconceptions about what the separation of church and state is that I added this:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

The police department in no way violated this and in my opinion they are doing their job by trying to fix the ills of the community by bringing about peace, understanding, and unity. Congress has a prayer at the beginning of every session if that doesn't violate the constitution then most certainly this does not either.