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Contradictions in the bible


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#556    Paranoid Android

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 06:44 PM

View PostHavocWing, on 23 February 2013 - 06:42 PM, said:

It is completely one sided,  the only purpose we have to him is to give him admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation, and we are still seen as worthless and less than nothing.  He cares nothing for the suffering of the people.
From where I sit it is not at all one-sided.  I have received much more than I could ever have hoped for from what I have given to God throughout my 13 years of living as a Christian.

Edited by Paranoid Android, 23 February 2013 - 06:45 PM.

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#557    shadowhive

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 06:47 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 23 February 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

"aka serving a psychotic, deranged god for all eternity".... those are YOUR words, not mine.  I bet if you asked any atheist that took comfort in this life being all that there is (several of them can be found in THIS THREAD) their reason for taking comfort in this world being all there is would have NOTHING to do with the Christian view of the afterlife.

All I was seeking was to try and point out the flaws in your own argument, take it or leave it I did not intend more than that.

Yes, those are my words. Unlike you, my words are all mine. I don't have a holy text to fall back on to follow to the letter and use as an excuse.

While I don't think this life is all there is, that doesn't mean I'm not going to live my life as if it's the only life there is. Again, living life might be a difficult concept for you, but it's something I full go along with.

It seems all your trying to do is put a positive spin on your bleak little afterlife, while putting down any other by any means.

Your afterlife has dozens more flaws than mine.


Quote

Again, that is your opinion.  I'm only pointing out what God did according to the Bible.  And using the Bible you cannot make the erroneous claim that God does not want a relationship with its creation.

It only souds erroneous because god seems to 'want' a relationship despite setting the starting terms for that relationship as being too high. When he realised that, did he change things? After all he's god and it's surely within his power to do so. Nope. Instead he sends his 'son' down, maes him have a nice, showy tortous death and make the terms of the relationship even worse.

That doesn't come across as someone that wants a relationship. That's like someone being pushed off a plane without a parachute and claiming they wanted them to survive.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
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#558    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 06:48 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 23 February 2013 - 06:42 PM, said:

1- Nevertheless, I addressed that comment, about how God had already provided Isaac with a DPG, therefore Abraham had no suffering, he was secure in the knowledge that Isaac would be kept safe.

2- You have yet to even attempt to prove the principle that "love shouldn't hurt".  Did you give up before you even began?  You say that you can't prove your point to me because I've already made up my mind, but you aren't even willing to try.  At best, it sounds like (I said it last post) you're flinging mud and hoping some sticks.  At worst, it sounds like you aren't too sure of your own views.  Either way, your views are coming across as very shaky.

My replies aren't solely directed at you.  Do you think god loved jesus by crucifying him?  Have you heard of P.T.S.D., jesus would have been traumatized beyond hope.

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#559    Paranoid Android

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 06:53 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 23 February 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

Yes, those are my words. Unlike you, my words are all mine. I don't have a holy text to fall back on to follow to the letter and use as an excuse.

While I don't think this life is all there is, that doesn't mean I'm not going to live my life as if it's the only life there is. Again, living life might be a difficult concept for you, but it's something I full go along with.

It seems all your trying to do is put a positive spin on your bleak little afterlife, while putting down any other by any means.

Your afterlife has dozens more flaws than mine.
Your comment here seems to be based on two (flawed) assumptions:  1- my view of the afterlife is "bleak", and 2- I am completely shunning the beauty of this world and what it has to offer.  Neither is true.  Though the first may be a point of contention, the second is simple fact - I love my life, I love this world, I love all that is in it.  I live my life and to think I don't shows that you don't know me at all.  Just because I talk about sin does not mean I'm afraid to open my door and walk outside.


View Postshadowhive, on 23 February 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

It only souds erroneous because god seems to 'want' a relationship despite setting the starting terms for that relationship as being too high. When he realised that, did he change things? After all he's god and it's surely within his power to do so. Nope. Instead he sends his 'son' down, maes him have a nice, showy tortous death and make the terms of the relationship even worse.

That doesn't come across as someone that wants a relationship. That's like someone being pushed off a plane without a parachute and claiming they wanted them to survive.
You brought it up.  You were the one who first asked whether I questioned whether God even wanted a relationship.  Whether you agree or not, the text in the Bible makes it clear that God definitely does want a relationship.  That's all I was pointing out.

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#560    Paranoid Android

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 06:55 PM

View PostHavocWing, on 23 February 2013 - 06:48 PM, said:

My replies aren't solely directed at you.  Do you think god loved jesus by crucifying him?  Have you heard of P.T.S.D., jesus would have been traumatized beyond hope.
Keep flinging that mud, HavocWing, maybe some will stick as you hope :tu:

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#561    shadowhive

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 07:02 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 23 February 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

Your comment here seems to be based on two (flawed) assumptions:  1- my view of the afterlife is "bleak", and 2- I am completely shunning the beauty of this world and what it has to offer.  Neither is true.  Though the first may be a point of contention, the second is simple fact - I love my life, I love this world, I love all that is in it.  I live my life and to think I don't shows that you don't know me at all.  Just because I talk about sin does not mean I'm afraid to open my door and walk outside.

I never said you were 'afraid to open the door and walk outside'. However, by having the concept of sin over you like a shadow, by thinking of god constantly over even the smallest decision, it's hard to actually see how anyone can full enjoy life when they're so constrained by such things. The world is full of amazing things and people in it, but with sin holding a stranglehold over you how can you fully experience it? How can you fully and truly love and accept the people around you?

The concept of sin has never seemed to have a net benefit, but seems to just have net penalties.

And as to the first point, yes an afterlife where a select through get through and the rest are destroyed is bleak. I don't see how it could be otherwise.

Quote

You brought it up.  You were the one who first asked whether I questioned whether God even wanted a relationship.  Whether you agree or not, the text in the Bible makes it clear that God definitely does want a relationship.  That's all I was pointing out.

And I responded to your points. Why do you say that as if I'm in the wrong for responding?

If you want a relationship with someone, you do not put up a massive hurdle and then make it so diffcult to maintain that the slightest thing could destroy it. A relationship shouldn't be a tightrope walk, where putting a put wrong can end with you being devoured by sharks.

Edited by shadowhive, 23 February 2013 - 07:05 PM.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#562    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 07:04 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 23 February 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

Keep flinging that mud, HavocWing, maybe some will stick as you hope :tu:

Why are you ignoring my questions?

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#563    shadowhive

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 07:04 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 23 February 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

From where I sit it is not at all one-sided.  I have received much more than I could ever have hoped for from what I have given to God throughout my 13 years of living as a Christian.

I figured Havoc would've responded to this by now. Since he hasn't, I'll ask the obvious: what exactly have you recieved?

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#564    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 07:19 PM

View PostHavocWing, on 02 July 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

http://shine.yahoo.c...0678.html#!5sdD

Researchers examined data from more than 34,000 adults and found that being spanked significantly increased the risk of developing mental health issues as adults. According to their results, corporal punishment is associated with mood disorders, including depression and anxiety, as well as personality disorders and alcohol and drug abuse. They estimate that as much as 7 percent of adult mental illness may be attributable to childhood physical punishment, including slapping, shoving, grabbing, and hitting. The study reports that spanking ups the risk of major depression by 41 percent, alcohol and drug abuse by 59 percent, and mania by 93 percent, among other findings.


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#565    Paranoid Android

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 03:28 AM

View Postshadowhive, on 23 February 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

I never said you were 'afraid to open the door and walk outside'. However, by having the concept of sin over you like a shadow, by thinking of god constantly over even the smallest decision, it's hard to actually see how anyone can full enjoy life when they're so constrained by such things. The world is full of amazing things and people in it, but with sin holding a stranglehold over you how can you fully experience it? How can you fully and truly love and accept the people around you?

The concept of sin has never seemed to have a net benefit, but seems to just have net penalties.
What can I say, I love my life.  I love the people in it, I love going out and living it.  I love God, and that enriches me in ways I cannot fully express in words.  Sin doesn't cast a shadow over that.  You see, I WANT to follow God, I WANT to please him.  My desire to dwell on what God wants is not a chore as you seem to think it, it is a joy, a pleasure.


View Postshadowhive, on 23 February 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

And as to the first point, yes an afterlife where a select through get through and the rest are destroyed is bleak. I don't see how it could be otherwise.
As I said, this would be a point of contention.


View Postshadowhive, on 23 February 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

And I responded to your points. Why do you say that as if I'm in the wrong for responding?

If you want a relationship with someone, you do not put up a massive hurdle and then make it so diffcult to maintain that the slightest thing could destroy it. A relationship shouldn't be a tightrope walk, where putting a put wrong can end with you being devoured by sharks.
Because your points have no grounding in the Bible.  Arguing that God doesn't want a relationship with us is absurd, based on the fact that God bends over backwards to ensure we can have a relationship with him.


View Postshadowhive, on 23 February 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

I figured Havoc would've responded to this by now. Since he hasn't, I'll ask the obvious: what exactly have you recieved?
First, the obvious - a support network of caring and loving people who aren't afraid to ask the tough questions.  The people at church are not just superficially interested in my life (nor am I superficially interested in theirs).  If I go to the pub and someone says, "hey, how was your week".  I'd say, "great, work was fine, had a run-in with the boss, but I'm good".  Most people who ask that question expect a short answer like this.  At church the people, especially those who are mature in their faith, expect a deeper sharing, so I may share deeper - a specific incident or two at work, perhaps a comment on my home life (the guys at the pub don't generally want me talking about my father who passed away two months back, people at church encourage it).

Second, through my church group I have had the opportunity to do things for others that I would never have had the chance to do otherwise.  I went Christmas carolling a few years back at the local palliative care unit, it was an eye-opening experience having the chance to bring Christmas to those who are at the very ends of their life and suffering, many broke down in tears as they thought back on all their Christmas memories and realising that they almost definitely won't be around for another Christmas.

Third, I mentioned this one briefly earlier in this post, and I can't really fully express it in words, but my love for God enriches me in many ways.  I wake up troubled, I pray and the troubles may or may not be gone but they are certainly lessened.  My very belief brings a great joy in me, something I never had when I was a non-Christian.  As I said, I can't explain this properly, but it is what it is.

These are three examples of what I have receive from my faith.

~ Regards,

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#566    Paranoid Android

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 03:32 AM

View PostHavocWing, on 23 February 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

Why are you ignoring my questions?
Noticed that, have you.  Is it annoying you?  I was intentionally not answering because I hate one-sided conversations.  You made a comment about Love and when I answered you, you ignored my answer and skipped to an entirely different matter.  It's a tactic you often employ, whether you realise it or not - a hit-and-run strategy where you post some random anti-Bible comment (such as the Histrionic Personality Disorder, or in the past your comments on narcissism, being just one example).  You never engage in two-way debate on it, you post and then you leave it.  So if you aren't going to answer my questions, why should I answer yours?

~ PA

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#567    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 03:38 AM

View PostHavocWing, on 23 February 2013 - 06:48 PM, said:

My replies aren't solely directed at you.  Do you think god loved jesus by crucifying him?  Have you heard of P.T.S.D., jesus would have been traumatized beyond hope.
Hi HavocWing,

I'm in no position to share with you what's REALLY on God's mind, but here's what I think: when God took the form of Jesus, one of His goals was to bring salvation to the world by negating the Law. We are living that "new" era, even though many Christians still cling to the Jesus-before-the-resurrection. God played His role well and perfectly: it is, after all, "the greatest story ever told." A great story contains elements of life and death at stake; otherwise, people wouldn't pay too much attention, nor would they want to remember it. Brilliant dramatists know this.  Keep in mind, life back then was brutal, and preaching about love would only go so far.

While Jesus Christ was alive, He knew that He was God, but knowing the future, Jesus knew that His story was going to be written down and filmed!! (no doubt, His story still sells); therefore, God as Jesus lived His life like a total human being but "perfect": feeling the pain and all. Think about it, if great yogis today have the mental means to transcend physical pain, God as Jesus had the capacity to also bring His mind down to the levels of the senses. At any rate, to "sacrifice" Himself was actually a brilliant move: it was THE best way to get this salvation to come about, be ingrained in people's minds at the same time, and usher in a "new" beginning (after the Books), I believe.

God made His bed and He laid in it, so to speak, because the Law was already archaic even during Jesus' period, I think. It was time to get rid of the Law, probably because people had become more sophisticated. Sounds relevant? Does it ring true today?? After the crucifiction, God has literally become the Holy Trinity. Again, we are living that "new" era -- I believe.


Peace.

Edited by braveone2u, 24 February 2013 - 03:41 AM.

"Also, if they (Gospels) were written early (before 70 AD), this would mean that there would not have been enough time for myth to creep into the gospel accounts since it was the eyewitnesses to Christ's life that wrote them."

#568    shadowhive

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 04:14 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 24 February 2013 - 03:28 AM, said:

What can I say, I love my life.  I love the people in it, I love going out and living it.  I love God, and that enriches me in ways I cannot fully express in words.  Sin doesn't cast a shadow over that.  You see, I WANT to follow God, I WANT to please him.  My desire to dwell on what God wants is not a chore as you seem to think it, it is a joy, a pleasure.

That just sounds... I don't know what it sounds like. It sounds borderline twisted is what it sounds like.

Quote

As I said, this would be a point of contention.

You know, it's funny. You say that like it's over something that has no real meaning. As if what we were debating was our favourite tv show not the slaughtering of billions of souls.

Quote

Because your points have no grounding in the Bible.  Arguing that God doesn't want a relationship with us is absurd, based on the fact that God bends over backwards to ensure we can have a relationship with him.

I'd hardly qualify what he did as 'bending over backwards'. He created a problem (sin) that would mean relationships with him would be neigh impossible. instead of remidying that by thinking 'ok, the problem is having this list of things called sins I'll ditch them' he sends down his son, condemns huim to a tortous death and then only gets rid of the problem that he caused by making people indebted to him.

God just sounds like he has a massive hero complex.

Quote

First, the obvious - a support network of caring and loving people who aren't afraid to ask the tough questions.  The people at church are not just superficially interested in my life (nor am I superficially interested in theirs).  If I go to the pub and someone says, "hey, how was your week".  I'd say, "great, work was fine, had a run-in with the boss, but I'm good".  Most people who ask that question expect a short answer like this.  At church the people, especially those who are mature in their faith, expect a deeper sharing, so I may share deeper - a specific incident or two at work, perhaps a comment on my home life (the guys at the pub don't generally want me talking about my father who passed away two months back, people at church encourage it).

Second, through my church group I have had the opportunity to do things for others that I would never have had the chance to do otherwise.  I went Christmas carolling a few years back at the local palliative care unit, it was an eye-opening experience having the chance to bring Christmas to those who are at the very ends of their life and suffering, many broke down in tears as they thought back on all their Christmas memories and realising that they almost definitely won't be around for another Christmas.

Third, I mentioned this one briefly earlier in this post, and I can't really fully express it in words, but my love for God enriches me in many ways.  I wake up troubled, I pray and the troubles may or may not be gone but they are certainly lessened.  My very belief brings a great joy in me, something I never had when I was a non-Christian.  As I said, I can't explain this properly, but it is what it is.

These are three examples of what I have receive from my faith.

~ Regards,

Everyone has a suport network of supporting, caring, loving people. They're called friends. You don't need to meet a church to get that kind of support. When my grandparents died I had friends there and they encouraged me to talk about it (at the same time they didn't push me to do so if I didn't want). i didn't need to go to a special place just to do that. Now a pub is hardly a comparable place because there people do expect short answers. it's not the place where you go and expect to talk long and hard about your problems (I can't speak for pubs there, but the few I've been to have often been crowded, noisy places so long explanations would easily be lost). Going to a pub and expecting long conversation is like going to a club and expecting people to be doing waltz's. If you want to talk about your problems (or about your father, which I am sorry about) than all you need is a person who'll listen (and obviously in an environment where they'd hear you).

The second thing, well it's good that you did that and (for once) I can't find something bad about that.

Third, that still just seems... odd. Despite what my posts may seem I experience great joy in life. I love life, the people in it and living. I don't have god in my life to do that. If I wake up troubled about something, I try to tackle whatever it is that's troubled me, not try and wish it away. You see, that all seems just so... strange. I can't think of another way to describe it.

Edited by shadowhive, 24 February 2013 - 04:20 AM.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#569    AquilaChrysaetos

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 05:52 AM

View Postshadowhive, on 23 February 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

by having the concept of sin over you like a shadow, by thinking of god constantly over even the smallest decision, it's hard to actually see how anyone can full enjoy life when they're so constrained by such things. The world is full of amazing things and people in it, but with sin holding a stranglehold over you how can you fully experience it? How can you fully and truly love and accept the people around you?

If you follow laws legalistically, yes, it is constraining and does hold you back. However that is not the Christian message. In fact it's reversed. Jesus came to set us free from the bondage of sin. We chose not to follow the sin nature because it traps us, tortures us, and brings pain to ourselves and the ones around you. There is no sin you can commit that God has not forgiven us for, and due to Christ's sacrifice on the cross we are free from it. The only sin we can commit that can hurt us is the rejection of Christ's love.

All forms of narcotics tie us down into addiction, unhealthy sexuality can tie us down to addiction. Apathy as opposed to love, forgiveness as opposed to vengence, eternal life as opposed to temporary, connection as opposed to seperation... How is this freedom and love as opposed to the other?

I want nothing to do with sin. And I don't fear God or agonize over guilt if I do sin. That is true freedom my friend...

Jesus Christ - Matthew 28:18-20 said:

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

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#570    Paranoid Android

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 12:13 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 24 February 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

That just sounds... I don't know what it sounds like. It sounds borderline twisted is what it sounds like.
Borderline twisted that I enjoy my life???  Seriously, you want to go down that path???


View Postshadowhive, on 24 February 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

I'd hardly qualify what he did as 'bending over backwards'. He created a problem (sin) that would mean relationships with him would be neigh impossible. instead of remidying that by thinking 'ok, the problem is having this list of things called sins I'll ditch them' he sends down his son, condemns huim to a tortous death and then only gets rid of the problem that he caused by making people indebted to him.

God just sounds like he has a massive hero complex.
As I said, I'm simply sharing what the Bible says.  Believe or don't believe the Bible, I honestly do not care at this point.  You just won't accept that the Bible says "x" and demand that the Bible says "y" instead for no apparent reason.


View Postshadowhive, on 24 February 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

Everyone has a suport network of supporting, caring, loving people. They're called friends. You don't need to meet a church to get that kind of support. When my grandparents died I had friends there and they encouraged me to talk about it (at the same time they didn't push me to do so if I didn't want). i didn't need to go to a special place just to do that. Now a pub is hardly a comparable place because there people do expect short answers. it's not the place where you go and expect to talk long and hard about your problems (I can't speak for pubs there, but the few I've been to have often been crowded, noisy places so long explanations would easily be lost). Going to a pub and expecting long conversation is like going to a club and expecting people to be doing waltz's. If you want to talk about your problems (or about your father, which I am sorry about) than all you need is a person who'll listen (and obviously in an environment where they'd hear you).
And a church provides such an avenue.  Hence my religion has helped me in this regard.  Which IS what the question was about, was it not?


View Postshadowhive, on 24 February 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

The second thing, well it's good that you did that and (for once) I can't find something bad about that.
Thanks :tu:


View Postshadowhive, on 24 February 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

Third, that still just seems... odd. Despite what my posts may seem I experience great joy in life. I love life, the people in it and living. I don't have god in my life to do that. If I wake up troubled about something, I try to tackle whatever it is that's troubled me, not try and wish it away. You see, that all seems just so... strange. I can't think of another way to describe it.
So because you and I find great joy in our respective world views, why is it "odd" to you that my life is enriched because of my belief in God.

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My blog is now taking a new direction.  Dedicated to my father who was a great inspiration in my life, I wish to honour his memory (RIP, dad) by sharing with the world what he had always kept to himself.  More details, http://www.unexplain...showentry=27811




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