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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


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#10201    Otharus

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 12:02 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 14 February 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

?? How did they know those lions were black??
They didn't

Quote

And oh wow, Ottema finally found out there were indeed lions!
Footnote in his 1876 edition:
"Leeuwen in Europa, Herodotus, VII, 125."

The archaeological find in Switzerland was still relevant.

In any case, those letters and fragments I posted recently may give us some insight into the minds of Ottema and the Over de Lindens.

It's the first time they are being published in English.

Edited by Otharus, 14 February 2012 - 12:35 PM.


#10202    Otharus

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 12:05 PM

View PostKnul, on 14 February 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

even a hypothesis should be based on known facts and circumstances, else it is your own imagination.
A hypothesis can be based on common sense and logic.


#10203    Abramelin

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 12:17 PM

View PostOtharus, on 14 February 2012 - 12:02 PM, said:

They didn't

Footnote in his 1876 edition:
"Leeuwen in Europa, Herodotus, VII, 125."

The archaeological find in Switzerland was still relevant.

In any case, those letters and fragments I posted recently may give us some insight into the minds of Ottema and the Over de Linden's.

It's the first time they are being published in English.

I know they could not have known about the color of those lions, but Ottema jumped in the air and said they had found 'the black lions'.

There are many marble statues of lions made by the ancient Greeks and Romans. Also mosaics where they show up frequently.

The image with the black lions (and Athena) I posted is from ancient Greece.

And we all know the Romans caught lions to have them fight with bears and gladiators. When the Romans had nearly whiped them out from Europe, they started catching them in the Near East and Africa.

==

And thanks for all the translating, Otharus.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 14 February 2012 - 12:18 PM.


#10204    Abramelin

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 12:50 PM

Knul said that the OLB Fonisiar (Phoenicians?) alone would prove that the OLB Middle Sea can be nothing else but the Mediterranean.

I say both Middle Seas were used in the OLB: the Frisian one and the Mediterranean one.

Anyway, what do these 'Fonisiar' prove?

This is how Frisians pronounce Phoenicians: Foenysier/ Fenysier (for the Englsih I put -i- instead of the Dutch -j- )

http://fy.wikipedia....wiki/Foenysjers

This is how Frisians pronounce 'Venetians': Feneesier (and mind you: Feneesier is pronounced the same as Fenysier)

http://fy.wikipedia....eneesje_(stêd)

Again: a corrupted time line:

West European crusaders successfully attacked the Syrian and Palestinian coast and established small christian states in Antioch, Acre and Jerusalem between 1099 and 1291. They gave commercial privileges to Pisan and Genoan traders who had helped finance their conquest. The Venetians had not helped, but nevertheless managed to establish a trading base in Tyre.

Venice had important connections with Northern Europe. Trade with Flanders was carried out mainly at the Champagne fairs where Italian merchants bought woollen goods and sold silk, spices, alum, sugar and lacquer. When the sea route was opened between the Western Mediterranean and the Atlantic, trade with Flanders was carried out directly by ship.

A second route linked Venice with Augsburg, Nuremberg, Prague and Vienna via the Brenner Pass. German merchants brought metals and metal products (including silver). Venetians traded these metals up the Po Valley and in the Mediterranean. In 1318 the Fondaco dei Tedeschi was created in Venice to provide for the trading needs and lodging of German merchants
.

http://www.theworlde...n_Republic.html


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Edited by Abramelin, 14 February 2012 - 12:51 PM.


#10205    Abramelin

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 01:03 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 09 December 2011 - 03:32 PM, said:

Nederlandse volksoverleveringen en godenleer - L. Ph. C. Van den Bergh (1836, Leiden)
(Dutch legends and mythology)

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false


For those who can read Dutch and are interested in anything OLB, download this book.

-

One of Friso's sons gave the Danes the name "Vithen" (EDIT: enter "Vithen" in the search tool accompanying the online book).

Hey, weren't we all discussing where the name "Witkening/Witking/Vitking" came from?

Maybe nothing but "king of the Danes"?? LOL !!

.

I should have added that "Vithen" is the Dutch plural for "Viths". The singular in both languages is "Vith".

So how would a/the king of the Danes be called in Frisian? "Vith-kening". And who was a famous (sea)king of those Danes? Godfried: "Ther Witkêning thaet is Sêkêning, Godfrêiath thene alda"

There you go.

Nothing to do with 'wet' (Jensma) or 'white' or 'wise', but simply an alternative spelling for 'Jutes'.

+++++++++++


EDIT:

Harald died in 852 and his son Godfried took over. He travelled, with Rorik, back to Denmark to reclaim the thrown in the war of 854. After they have failed, they started their own empire in Frisia and extend their territory. In 863 Dorestad was riaded for the last time: the city simply ceased to exsist.

The Frisian kings did not really know where they stood. Ubbo, a Frisian warlord, fought on the side of the Danes in Northumbria but in the same year Rorik gets thrown out of Frisia after a successful revolt. He returned to Denmark for a short period only to become a great statesman. He made a treaty with Carles the Bold, king of the West-Frankisch Empire, and at the same time kept good contacts with Louis the German of the East-Frankish Empire. In 870 he returns to Frisia, more powerfull than ever, he now was an official vassal of Charles the Bold. He became a christian for political and not necessarily religious reasons. But after 873 he vanished from historical accounts.

In 882 Godfried the Seaking (whether or not he was Rorik's cousin is not certain) officially became the heir to Rorik's possessions. However, he died in 885 under suspicious circumstances. As the story goes, one of his warlords, Gerulf, was involved. This Gerulf pops back into history sometime after Godfried's death as archfather of the Dutch counts
.

http://www.missgien....ings/rorik.html


Sandbach's note:

* Here there are wanting in the manuscript twenty pages (perhaps more), in which Beeden has written about the King, Adel the Third, called Ubbo by the writers of our chronicles.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#by

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Edited by Abramelin, 14 February 2012 - 01:28 PM.


#10206    Abramelin

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 03:41 PM

Godfried again...


Ther Witkêning thaet is Sêkêning Godfrêiath thene alda heth thêr asvndergana telnomar fon mâkad fâr stand aend rvnskrift bêde.

De Witkening dat is Sekening Godfreiath den oude had de erondergaande telnummers van gemaakt (=van het Juul wiel/ from the Yule wheel) voor stand en runschrift beide.

The Witkoning that is the Sea-king Godfried the Old made numbers for the set hand and for the runic hand.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#at

As I said before, nowhere in the OLB does it say or even suggest when this Godfrêiath lived or invented the numerals/ciphers.

I think it would not prove or disprove the OLB if it had indeed been Godfried the Viking and Seaking, King of the Danes, and who died in 885 AD.

Imagine this scenario: under the command of this Godfried the Vikings raided (or maybe paid a 'friendly' visit to) the Alhambra. Godfried or one of his men watched the ciphers in the Alhambra, and understood they had been formed using a circular geomatric pattern (either they found out about it themselves or it was explained to them). He or his men might have considered those ciphers to be a lot more practical than the numerals they themselves used, or maybe they found them more beautiful than their own (they did have numerals - using runes - btw, but most often they wrote the numerals out in words, like is done in the OLB).

Either Godfried or one of his men (a scribe? a skald?) thought they could use their sacred Yule wheel instead for creating those ciphers, and subsequentily introduced them into their own territories like Frisia, which was then ruled by the Vikings/Danes/Godfried.

Later on the Franks conquered the Vikings and kicked them out of Frisia, and adopted these very handy ciphers and subsequentily introduced them into their lands.

This scenario could fit into the OLB without anyone getting a headache about it.

Nice, eh?

+++++

EDIT:

In the Vikings' runic inscriptions, we do find numbers written down, but it's very rare. Usually numbers are spelled out as whole words, although on rare occasion the first letter of the number-word is used to stand for the number (see below for the runic inscriptions with numbers).

-

Although it is very uncommon, on occasion the Vikings would use the runic letters to stand for a numeral. I was only able to find a couple of inscriptions that used this practice, and here they appear to just be abbreviating the word for the number and representing it by its first letter. This would be like an English speaker writing numbers as O=1, T=2, TH=3, Fo=4, Fi=5, Si=6, Se=7, E=8, N=9 etc


http://www.vikingans...reckoning.shtml

From the OLB:

Skrêven to Ljuwert. Nêi âtland svnken is thaet thria thû sond fjvwer hvndred aend njugon aend fjvwertigoste jêr, thaet is nei kersten rêknong that tvelfhvndred sex aend fiftigoste jêr. Hidde tobinomath oera Linda. - Wâk.

Written at Liuwert, in the three thousand four hundred and forty-ninth year after Atland was submerged—that is, according to the Christian reckoning, the year 1256.

Hiddo, surnamed Over de Linda.—Watch.


http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#aa

Apparently even the Fryans/Frisians loved to write numbers in the most cumbersome way instead of using that invention by Godfried.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 14 February 2012 - 04:08 PM.


#10207    Abramelin

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 04:29 PM

A reminder:

View PostAbramelin, on 29 March 2011 - 07:16 PM, said:

This "Godfried the Old" (Godfried de Oude), Witking (Viking?) and Seaking, keeps bugging my mind.

OK, here are some quotes from a very interesting pdf about the relations between the Frisians and the Vikings:

Friends, Vassals or Foes.
Relations and their representations between Frisians and
Scandinavians in the Viking Age, late 8th to 11th centuries.
An analysis of textual and archaeological sources.

http://scripties.let...Jssennagger.pdf


The next Danish king Godfrid came into conflict with Charlemagne’s son Pippin, since
the latter feared he might want to attack Saxony. Godfrid left Saxony alone, but destroyed
Slavic territory and the specifically mentioned trading site of Reric. He sent some of the
traders he took captive from Reric to Pippin, telling him that he heard the king was angry
about his actions and that he was willing to make peace. Despite efforts from both sides, no
peace was established.166 One of the reasons for the problems between the Danes and the
Franks might actually have been the area of Frisia, which was at this time under Frankish rule
but which Godfrid claimed belonged to him, together with Saxony.167 The conflict might have
become so bad, that it evoked the Viking raid of 810 A.D.

---

A range of Viking attacks on Frisia are recorded, which are presented as following:

810 First Viking attack on the continent, instigated by Godfrid, who is said to have
regarded Frisia as his province. 200 ships are said to have been involved
. Vikings ravaged
the islands of the coast of Frisia, landed and fought three battles with Frisians, which they
won. A hundred pounds of silver was extracted from the surviving Frisians as tribute
(RFA 810).

---

The HD relates the story of the Danish king Godfrid, who was most powerful and generous,
characterised by courage and by gentleness.208 He extended his fame by extending his wars to
outside the borders of his kingdom, according to Saxo. Saxony was subdued by the Frankish
emperor Charlemagne who made it Christian, and according to Saxo the people were much
happier under Frankish than Danish rule. But Godfrid took the area back and also subdued
North-Frisia with his sea-force. Here, he installed a tax-system. He had a couple of buildings
built of 240 feet in length, which were divided into twelve sections of twenty feet each
. At
one end of the building sat Godfrid’s treasurer, at the other end lay a shield. In this shield,
Frisians had to throw the coins that functioned as payment for the taxes. Only the coins that
the treasurer could hear were counted, resulting in a lot of loss of coins for the Frisians.209
The tax system resembles the clipscelda that was in existence in Westerlauwers Frisia as
early as the beginning of the ninth century. The evidence might be too scarce to conclude that
the Danish overlord imposed this form of tax payment throughout their Frisian benefices, but
the possibility is there, if we bear in mind all the references to the extraction of payment that
the Vikings and Scandinavian overlords executed in Frisia.

Even though this source is Scandinavian, it is a source with a very clear Christian agenda.
Yet he shows some sympathy for the Frisians. According to Saxo, the taxes put upon the
Frisians by the overambitious Godefrid is ‘not so much harsh as it was strange’, and many
Frisians have lost useless money by it. Also, he claims that the Frisians were ‘freed from this
burden’ by Charles.

---

The first benefice was endowed to the Danish Harald Klakk in 826 A.D., after trouble
with the sons of former king Godfrid, on his commendation to Emperor Charles. The area was
Rüstringen in Ostfriesland
. In Mainz – where there also was an attestable Frisian colony217 –
Harald, his family and 400 followers are said to have been baptized.218 In 827 A.D. Harald is
driven out of Denmark, and likely retreated in Rüstringen.219

---

With the death of Godfrid, not only his benefice came to an end, but the line of Danish
benefice-holders in Frisia in general. This freed the way for the counts of Holland that would
play a significant role in Dutch history
.




The whole of the pdf is an interesting read, whatever you may think of the OLB.


+++++++++++


And the next is also quite interesting:

Charles had already encreased his authority by matrimony,
for he obtained the hand of Bona, who, (here again turning
away from a thorny field of genealogical controversy,) we believe
to have been the daughter of Godfrey the elder, Count of the
Ardennes, and sister of the second Godfrey, the latter appointed
by Otho as Duke, or rather Governor, of Brabant. Three children
were born to Charles, of this, his first marriage. A second union
was contracted with the affectionate Adela, the daughter of the
Vermandois Count Herbert, who piously shared in, and comforted
her husband's misfortunes.


http://www.archive.o...276mbp_djvu.txt

--

Godfried DE OUDE

Partnership with: Mathilde VAN SAKSEN
Marriage: (Date and Place unknown)

Child: Bonne
Child: Ermentrude
Child: Herman. Birth: ABT 970



http://home.kpn.nl/e...0000c.htm#I8236


__________

This Godfried was the Viking who was the first to attack the mainland of Europe (Frisia).

He was a High King, and a Sea King AND a Viking.

According to Saxo he wasn't as 'terrible' as other accounts portayed him.

And he considered Frisia as HIS property.

Now, if I am able to find out this Godfried was in contact with Arabs (the numerals they introduced in medieval Europe) I think I will hit jackpot...

.


I hope you read that, Menno: "In Mainz – where there also was an attestable Frisian colony". That, in connection with me saying "Gosa Makonta" was noone else but "Goswinus Magontinensis" or "Goswinus from Mainz", and you saying that Mainz was too far away from Texel.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 14 February 2012 - 04:34 PM.


#10208    Abramelin

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 05:16 PM

I hope I can control myself, because that pdf I quoted from in my quoted post (see former post) is really very interesting for this thread:

http://scripties.let...Jssennagger.pdf

The name ‘Frisian’ is not unproblematic either. The French historian Stéphane Lebecq has
argued that “Frisian became synonymous with ‘international trader’ in the Early Medieval
period”,92 but it might be more accurate to say that traders became labelled as Frisians and
were consequently identified as such. It is true that in a lot of trade towns around the North
Sea most traders were Frisian, as in York. It is also true that the name of one group of people
could come to denote a larger group in the Early Middle Ages, as we saw with Danes or, later,
Vikings. If the labelling of tradesmen as Frisians is true, then we see a reversed etymology as
with Vikings. Whereas Viking originally referred to a certain activity (trade and piracy), and
secondly to a people, Frisian originally denoted a certain people (ethnonym), and secondary
people with a certain activity (international trade). When looking at the Frisians, one has to
bear this in mind, as well as the fact that the Frisian sphere of influence also stretched over
former parts of for instance Francia, meaning that inhabitants of Frisia could be Frankish-
Frisian.93


-

Three runic inscriptions are known to refer to Frisians in a
Scandinavian context. These are the inscription on the Senja neckring
(cat. nr. 24) referred to above, and two inscriptions from rune
stones (U 379 and U 391, cat. nr.25) in Sigtuna, Sweden. The
inscription of Senja can be read as half a poetic stanza written in the
metre fornyrñislag. This metre with alliteration was one of the
standard metres for skaldic poetry.160 All three inscriptions are on the
basis of their style and language, dated to the eleventh century and
have been studied by different scholars, who have put forward
different readings, that will be examined below.161 Either they are
interpreted as attesting to raids or as attesting to trade-relations or
joint activities. In any case, they provide a Scandinavian
representation of Frisian-Scandinavian contacts in text. The archaeological aspects of the
necklace will be discussed in chapter 4
.

-

More certain are Viking attacks on Frisian colonies in Xanten and Birten.178 Vikings
travelled up the Rhine and plundered towns like Xanten, Duisburg, Cologne, Bonn and
Koblenz.179 According to eye-witness accounts, Xanten was attacked in 864 (or 863) A.D.180
After having destroyed Dorestad, the Vikings sailed up the Rhine at high water levels in
January, killed Frisians who had retreated in an unspecified villa nearby, and devastated
Xanten and the churches on the way.181 In 880 A.D., Birten, close to Xanten was plundered,
and it is specifically mentioned that there was a great number of Frisian inhabitants here.182

The lay-out of Dorestad – the long road alongside the river at which the buildings and the
trade were situated, is recognized as typically Frisian. Hedeby had a lay-out reminiscent of
this, possibly showing the hand of the Frisians.340 According to Lebecq, coins, ceramics, glass
and Rhenish products point to trade with Frisians or by Frisians,341 but according to
Willemsen it points to direct links with Franks.342 At least, there is a strong connection with
Frisia, so claims Lebecq, and this is also evident in the selectd historical sources. Lebecq
argues that the evidence clearly shows that at the time of establishment in the eighth century,
Frisians were already present with their personal belongings and goods. And in the ninth
century, the Frisians again occupied the town with their trade.343 This indicates that the story
of Godfrid and his replacement of people from Reric is a very plausible one, and that the
messengers between Dorestad and Hedeby could very well have been Frisian traders. This
idea is also reinforced by the fact that Charlemagne himself used Frisian merchants as
messengers whom he sent to Godfrid.344


-

And the next person is quoted a lot in that pdf:

Lebecq, S. “The Frisian trade in the Dark Ages; a Frisian or a Frankish/Frisian trade?” In
Rotterdam Papers VII, ed. A. Carmiggelt, (Rotterdam: 1992), 7-15.

Lebecq, S. Marchands et Navigateurs Frisons du Haut Moyen Âge. Vol. 1. Lille: Presses
Universitaire de Lille, 1983a.

Lebecq, S. Marchands et Navigateurs Frisons du Haut Moyen Âge. Vol. 2. Lille: Presses
Universitaire de Lille, 1983b.

Lebecq, S. “On the use of the word ‘Frisian’ in the 6th-10th centuries written sources: some
interpretations.” In Maritime Celts, Frisians and Saxons, S. McGrail. London: Council
for British Archaeology, 1990, 85-90.

And here's an online (Scribd) document from this Lebecq:

The Frisian trade in the Dark Ages; a Frisian or a Frankish/Frisian trade?* Stéphane Lebecq 1992. In: Carmiggelt, A.,(ed). Rotterdam Papers VII, pp. 7-15

http://www.scribd.co...n-the-Dark-Ages


.

Edited by Abramelin, 14 February 2012 - 05:20 PM.


#10209    Abramelin

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 05:55 PM

View PostKnul, on 07 February 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

I announced that I added a new chapter on the typography of the OLB to my website (in Dutch). The typography so far has not been studied. It might be interesting for you.

Menno, do you have a link to that new chapter?

+++

Ah, got it: http://rodinbook.nl/olbtypografie.html

(I hadn't noticed the tab)

++++++

EDIT:

OK, looks interesting.

But you might want to add a couple of images.

-1- An example of Halbertsma's use of 'tildes' or  ~~~~ in his documents.

-2- Those letters you called ""kleine letters (onderkast)" or in English, "lowercase":

OLB run(ning)-script:

Posted Image

I don't think they are lowercase but uppercase instead, and just in the form of 'running script' (lopend schrift).

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

EDIT:

For a minute I thought I had forgotten to add one ltter in my table: the -GS- :

Posted Image


But, no , I had not forgotten because I had used the ORIGINAL page 46 to fill in that table !!

Look at the original page 46 here:

http://images.tresoa...php?p=48&pm=212

And compare that with Sandbach's :

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#at


Wow, suddenly a new letter showed up not found in the original 800 years old page 46 of that manuscript...


Attached File  GS_YES.jpg   38.22K   17 downloads
Attached File  GS_NO.jpg   43.31K   16 downloads
.

Edited by Abramelin, 14 February 2012 - 06:46 PM.


#10210    Abramelin

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 07:23 PM

Just saying that in the original manuscript they left out the -GS- as an explanation under one of those Yule wheels.

The -gs- as a separate letter does indeed show up elsewhere in the text:

[Pag. 11]

9th line from "Tex Fryas" (first line after Tex Fryas  = nr 1)

Posted Image

Tex Fryas.
(...)
Tha ik segs to jo mith rdene nd tid skil-et wra, tha modelsa skilun mmar swika vnder hjar jn ld
.

However, it is strange that the -GS- is missing from page 46 of the original mansucript. A big circular image like on that page cannot be overlooked, or even be left out by a copier for the reason it only shows up a couple of times in the rest of the text.

B)


#10211    Abramelin

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 08:08 PM

Look again at the 5th letter from the left in Sandbach's version:

Attached File  GS_YES.jpg   38.22K   7 downloads

Then look at the 5th letter in the original version:

Attached File  GS_NO.jpg   43.31K   8 downloads

On this page 46 of the original manuscript you will see that what is supposed to be the letter -g- has a horizontal blob-ish line. In that way it could be the OLB -g- or the OLB -gs- .

It looks like someone messed up things, like, "what shall I make of this, hmmmm.... Let's leave it open for a while because I may have a better idea later", and then forgot to correct his 'creation'.

Let's not forget that all the members of "Over de Linden" family who were supposedly selected (and privileged) to copy this very important document, and by that save it for posterity, must have been pressed to copy it exactly from the former copy.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 14 February 2012 - 08:19 PM.


#10212    Otharus

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 08:37 PM

Remarkable

As you make your bed, so must you lie in it

(Dutch: Wie zaait, zal oogsten)

1) Publication (1854) by J.G. Ottema about a publication (1854) from M. de Haan Hettema

Title:

Het meer Flevo en de Middelzee, of Blikken op de wartaal van Jhr. Mr. M. de Haan Hettema, in zijn geschrift: "Over de oudere geschiedenis van Friesland, met betrekking tot haren vroegeren en tegenwoordigen waterstaat"

(Lake Flevo and the Middle-Sea, or views upon the gibberish of M. de Haan Hettema, in his publication: "About the older history of Friesland, concerning her earlier and present waters")

2) Publication (1876) by J. Beckering Vinckers about the OLB (published 1872 and 1876 by J.G. Ottema)

Title:

De onechtheid van het Oera Linda-Bôk, aangetoond uit de wartaal waarin het is geschreven

(The inauthenticity of the OLB, indicated by the gibberish in which it was written)

Edited by Otharus, 14 February 2012 - 08:42 PM.


#10213    Abramelin

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 08:44 PM

What's 'remarkable' about that? I think you left out the important part.


#10214    Otharus

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 09:04 PM

Fragment of letter from dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, dated 4-5-1877 (Tresoar collection; translated);

These days I realised something concerning Beckering Vinckers' accusation of a cunningly devised plan.

Your father did not have a plan to have the manuscript printed or made public. Under pressure of Verwijs, and when the content was still unknown to him, he had initially agreed, but when he got disappointed that Verwijs did not keep his promise
[to translate the manuscript], your father believed he was no longer bound to the permission he had given. Please read our letters from early 1871 (I think), and you will see how he resisted with tooth and nail against my plan for publication. Someone who wants to mislead the world would not do that, he would have grabbed the opportunity to carry out his deception with both hands. Kuipers [the printer] and I almost had to force him, and harsh words were exchanged.


#10215    Otharus

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 09:05 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 14 February 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

What's 'remarkable' about that? I think you left out the important part.
What would that be, you think?