485 replies to this topic

[booNyzarC]

Nobody said "it was the soviets."

Are you trying to say that the US government and military didn't have any concerns about possible soviet incursion during the cold war?  Is that what you are asking people to prove?  Seriously?

[TheMcGuffin]

booNyzarC, on 07 November 2011 - 05:53 AM, said:

Nobody said "it was the soviets."

I sure thought that they said exactly that.  In any case, I'm tired of posting all the documents so why don't you look up some for a change.  Prove that the UFOs were Soviet.  Find me records to prove that and I will say no more.

[TheMcGuffin]

Raquel H. the Pumpkin, on 07 November 2011 - 05:24 AM, said:

that sounds fishy. did the US government forget about the Roswell incident?!

They forgot about Dr. Robert Sarbacher, too, and the top secret UFO group at the Research and Development Board--the ones who handled the wreckage and bodies.

[booNyzarC]

TheMcGuffin, on 07 November 2011 - 06:03 AM, said:

I sure thought that they said exactly that.  In any case, I'm tired of posting all the documents so why don't you look up some for a change.  Prove that the UFOs were Soviet.  Find me records to prove that and I will say no more.

I'm not going to cater to your strawman argument.  Nobody said that the UFOs were soviet.  What people are suggesting is that the documents you've provided hi-light the degree of concern that the US government and military had during the cold war about the possibility of soviet incursion.  That doesn't mean that UFOs are soviet in origin, it means that the agencies tasked with the protection of the US were concerned that UFOs might represent soviet technology.  That, in itself, was reason enough to place the whole subject at the very top of military awareness.

The alien mythology which grew out of the legitimate concerns is simply that; mythology.  How much of your life has been devoted to chasing this ghost McGuffin?

[TheMcGuffin]

booNyzarC, on 07 November 2011 - 06:09 AM, said:

I'm not going to cater to your strawman argument.  
The alien mythology which grew out of the legitimate concerns is simply that; mythology.  How much of your life has been devoted to chasing this ghost McGuffin?

That's your story.  The one I saw wasn't Soviet, nor were all the ones I read about and heard about over the years.  Do you think we're idiots?  Do you think we didn't figure out how to tell the difference between Soviet aircraft and UFOs very early on?

[booNyzarC]

TheMcGuffin, on 07 November 2011 - 06:12 AM, said:

That's your story.  The one I saw wasn't Soviet, nor were all the ones I read about and heard about over the years.  Do you think we're idiots?  Do you think we didn't figure out how to tell the difference between Soviet aircraft and UFOs very early on?

Doesn't it bother you that in all the time you've spent researching this subject you haven't been able to uncover irrefutable proof that ET is here?  Does that shake your confidence about whether it is a valid pursuit in the least?

[lost_shaman]

TheMcGuffin, on 07 November 2011 - 06:03 AM, said:

I sure thought that they said exactly that.

No they said it wasn't ruled out. Just as you haven't PROVEN E.T. visitation. See how that works? For bonus points, Guess who has the 'burden of Proof'?

TheMcGuffin, on 07 November 2011 - 06:03 AM, said:

In any case, I'm tired of posting all the documents so why don't you look up some for a change.  Prove that the UFOs were Soviet.  Find me records to prove that and I will say no more.

Most of us are perfectly fine with 'unknowns'. 'Believers' think these are E.T. Spacecraft but NO-ONE has ever PROVEN that! Certainly not you McGuffin!

Do you disagree with that?

[TheMcGuffin]

booNyzarC, on 07 November 2011 - 06:15 AM, said:

Doesn't it bother you that in all the time you've spent researching this subject you haven't been able to uncover irrefutable proof that ET is here?  Does that shake your confidence about whether it is a valid pursuit in the least?

Not when I read the interviews with Sarbacher and Dr. Eric Walker, then I knew for sure it was true.  Not when I read the stories of the UFOs being shot at and bullets and missiles bouncing off them like they were nothing, and when UFOs were being spotted flying straight up to 100, 200 or 300,000 feet, being spotted on the ground, on radar and in the air.  They were not anything made on earth.

Not when I know they can fly 10-20,000 miles an hour, or when intelligence officers have picture books of various UFO types.

Edited by TheMcGuffin, 07 November 2011 - 06:20 AM.

[TheMcGuffin]

lost_shaman, on 07 November 2011 - 06:17 AM, said:

No they said it wasn't ruled out. Just as you haven't PROVEN E.T. visitation. See how that works? For bonus points, Guess who has the 'burden of Proof'?

Do you disagree with that?

Then find me some proof that rules it in.  Surely that can't be so hard, if you want anyone to at least seriously consider that as an alternative hypothesis.  You don't get to make a suggestion like that and then weasel out of it.

[booNyzarC]

TheMcGuffin, on 07 November 2011 - 06:19 AM, said:

Not when I read the interviews with Sarbacher and Dr. Eric Walker, then I knew for sure it was true.  Not when I read the stories of the UFOs being shot at and bullets and missiles bouncing off them like they were nothing, and when UFOs were being spotted flying straight up to 100, 200 or 300,000 feet, being spotted on the ground, on radar and in the air.  They were not anything made on earth.

Not when I know they can fly 10-20,000 miles an hour, or when intelligence officers have picture books of various UFO types.

What makes you so sure that they are anything "made" at all?  The legitimate ones, that is.

I don't really care what stories you've read, each one could be embellished, overstated, and/or misperceived.  Stories aren't what facts are made of.

No matter how much you might believe in ET visitation, it isn't an established fact.  And I think you know that.  And I think your knowing that really pisses you off.  It is the best explanation I have for your extreme bitterness toward anyone who presents a dissenting view of the subject matter.  Am I wrong?

[TheMcGuffin]

booNyzarC, on 07 November 2011 - 06:24 AM, said:

What makes you so sure that they are anything "made" at all?  The legitimate ones, that is.

I don't really care what stories you've read, each one could be embellished, overstated, and/or misperceived.  Stories aren't what facts are made of.

No matter how much you might believe in ET visitation, it isn't an established fact.  And I think you know that.  And I think your knowing that really pisses you off.  It is the best explanation I have for your extreme bitterness toward anyone who presents a dissenting view of the subject matter.  Am I wrong?

How do you know that it hasn't been an established fact for quite some time, even though you have to dig around to find evidence about it?  I've already done that to my satisfaction, and a lot of the criticism from "skeptics" just seems purely ridiculous and very shallow.

[lost_shaman]

TheMcGuffin, on 07 November 2011 - 06:22 AM, said:

Then find me some proof that rules it in.  Surely that can't be so hard, if you want anyone to at least seriously consider that as an alternative hypothesis.  You don't get to make a suggestion like that and then weasel out of it.

You mean the same way you have no "Proof" that 'rules' E.T. in?

[psyche101]

TheMcGuffin, on 07 November 2011 - 06:22 AM, said:

Then find me some proof that rules it in.  Surely that can't be so hard, if you want anyone to at least seriously consider that as an alternative hypothesis.  You don't get to make a suggestion like that and then weasel out of it.

Surely the Cold War "rules it in" By default. It existed, and many sighting would be attributed to the Cold War, wether they were connected, or even happened or not. Nerves would see to that.

There are many very strange tales that are hard to resolve that are not ET that involve machines. We were recently looking at 1800's Airships, when we look at the 1896 incident - LINK - we had people perfectly describing Airships that did not yet exist, and it seems in some cases, like the paddlewheel ship, some never existed. People saw very strange things in the skies during the cold war, but I just do not see how that instantly qualifies life from other planets. When we have plain basic mysteries this old that we still cannot resolve, I find it a tall order to expect that each and every sighting today can be catalogued and identified immediately, or that we can determine this was life from another planet. It seems quite a leap to me.  There is certainly more going on in the skies than we can yet fathom. Perhaps only a time machine could give these answers. It does strike me as intriguing that we are still having the same conversations about objects in the skies that were were in 1896. Just the description has changed to reflect current technology.

Was there actually a mystery inventor who built a powered dirigible a decade before anyone else?

Edited by psyche101, 07 November 2011 - 07:08 AM.

[lost_shaman]

TheMcGuffin, on 07 November 2011 - 06:30 AM, said:

How do you know that it hasn't been an established fact for quite some time, even though you have to dig around to find evidence about it?

The evidence consists only of people saying "I saw Alienz!". You know that is not going to fly.

TheMcGuffin, on 07 November 2011 - 06:30 AM, said:

I've already done that to my satisfaction, and a lot of the criticism from "skeptics" just seems purely ridiculous and very shallow.

Right, like the 'Idea' that you are the one who has the 'burden of Proof'? It's 'amazing' what 'we' 'evil skeptics' come up with to keep the 'believers' down isn't it?

[TheMcGuffin]

lost_shaman, on 07 November 2011 - 07:24 AM, said:

The evidence consists only of people saying "I saw Alienz!". You know that is not going to fly.

Right, like the 'Idea' that you are the one who has the 'burden of Proof'? It's 'amazing' what 'we' 'evil skeptics' come up with to keep the 'believers' down isn't it?

Ah, but you do have a burden of proof when you say that the UFO might have been Soviet or a conventional object or the planet Venus, etc, etc.  It's easy to make all kinds of suggestions and assertions like those but provide no evidence.

Only when you say nothing at all do you have no burden of proof.