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Obama to US Military?: Must shoot US Citizens

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#226    MstrMsn

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 07:49 AM

View PostGromdor, on 31 January 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

Kent State, Ruby Ridge, Shawn Nelson (The guy who stole the tank), and Waco would be examples of how the government previously answered the question of, "Will we shoot US citizens?".  Heck half of the posts on this forum is how people need to keep their guns to shoot criminals and intruders (Almost certain to be US citizens).  Gun control isn't the issue, the issue is "shoot people to solve problems" mentality Americans have.  (One of my less intelligent friends wanted to bomb Kazakhstan because of the movie "Borat"!)  And I can't count on my hand the number of times people have brought up the second ammendment solution to solving the governments problems.
  So as for Obama ordering the military to be willing to shoot Americans-  He doesn't have to.  Most of them are not adverse to the idea to begin with.

I have an uncle that was a student at Kent State when the shooting occured. He and several of his friends have a totally different story as to what started the shooting by the Guardsmen.

Ruby Ridge and Waco didn't have military involved. Ruby Ridge had FBI, ATF (now called BATFE) and US Marshalls. Waco had AFT and later the FBI joined in. So, this really isn't relevant to the military shooting civilians. Law Enforcement agencies (whether local/state police or Feds) kind of have to be willing to shoot civilians if warranted.

Shawn Nelson was shot by the police. However, since he stole US Army equipment, they ahd every right to go after him to get it back, and shoot him if he shot at them or otherwise jeapordized someone's life.

Bottom line, you don't need the military to collect the guns of the lawful gun owners, the cops and feds can do that. You need the military to be willing to kill US citizens in order to take become a dictator.

Also, once anyone in the military gives an order to kill citizens - they just violated their oath. Anyone in the military that just agrees to follow the unlawful order to kill citizens - they also just violated their oath.

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#227    MstrMsn

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 07:54 AM

View Postsam12six, on 30 January 2013 - 11:55 PM, said:

Around here too. That doesn't change my opinion that if they framed it the right way, they wouldn't get very much balking at the orders until they'd done it enough that the pattern was too clear for anyone to ignore.

Imagine - a briefing where Military Intelligence comes in and tells the soldiers that a small town of several thousand had been identified as the US headquarters of Al Queda and were days away from implementing an attack that would dwarf 9/11. They tell the soldiers the problem is too big for the police and we're going to head in and capture terrorist leaders and evidence that'll end the war on terror in one fell swoop. You think soldiers who know none of these people personally would actually stand up in front of their peers and say they refuse because these are Americans? And then when the military does start occupying the town and Americans being what we are, there's about 100% chance somebody would decide to start sniping from the woods and "prove" to the soldiers that their cause is just. While I can't imagine why they'd want to actually do this, I think it's a believable scenario. Now, it they were stupid about it and said they were going to go in and just massacre everybody, then they'd get mutiny.

The problem with this... this is not the job of the US Military. Unless federal laws are changed, they can NOT operate on US soil (barring a declaration of Martial Law - which MUST be approved by Congress). CIA, NSA, FBI, ATF, DEA, DHS... they ALL have special response/tactics teams that are trained for this - many are made up of former military special operations personnel. Your average infantry unit won't be sent in, and they know it, and would ask questions. Don't think so? You'd be wrong...

We are born with 2 fears: Falling, and loud noises, all others are LEARNED.
You say fear is all in the mind. I say you are right; for it is our imagination that makes things seem scary.
If you want to learn how to not be afraid, ask.

#228    AsteroidX

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 08:24 AM

Quote

Also, once anyone in the military gives an order to kill citizens - they just violated their oath. Anyone in the military that just agrees to follow the unlawful order to kill citizens - they also just violated their oath.

and thats why they have access to the really good gadgets.

Its unfortunate the Civilian Law Enforcement Agencies feel there entitled to the same hardware as the military. Which kinda changes the dynamics and relationship into a paramilitary force rather then a Law enforcement agency.


#229    Yamato

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 09:39 AM

Regarding the legal ownership of automatic-fire weapons in the US, this answer seems comprehensive enough:

http://answers.yahoo...08100642AA1yRuX

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#230    and then

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 11:16 AM

View PostYamato, on 14 February 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

Regarding the legal ownership of automatic-fire weapons in the US, this answer seems comprehensive enough:

http://answers.yahoo...08100642AA1yRuX
Funny... this song and dance reminds me of the answer to the Fair Housing Act in the south.  When one could not legally discriminate against a black family moving into a "white" neighborhood, the neighborhoods just became too expensive and exclusive for blacks to afford.  No discrimination here... they can move in any time they like - IF they can afford the price.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#231    MstrMsn

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:24 AM

View PostYamato, on 14 February 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

Regarding the legal ownership of automatic-fire weapons in the US, this answer seems comprehensive enough:

http://answers.yahoo...08100642AA1yRuX

Those answers are somewhat not entirely accurate.

Heckler and Koch (a German company) made the HK MP5, a select fire (from semi to full auto) sub-machinegun. It can be bought here in the US, by civilians that have the right permits. However, the people replying say they can't be here.... (apparently, they can).

Also, one replier stated that new ones can't be made... that, too, is not correct.

I like what you were trying to do, but please, stay away from yahoo answers (as well as about.com and anything Wiki) as they really are not accurate.

We are born with 2 fears: Falling, and loud noises, all others are LEARNED.
You say fear is all in the mind. I say you are right; for it is our imagination that makes things seem scary.
If you want to learn how to not be afraid, ask.

#232    MstrMsn

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:33 AM

View PostAsteroidX, on 14 February 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

and thats why they have access to the really good gadgets.

Its unfortunate the Civilian Law Enforcement Agencies feel there entitled to the same hardware as the military. Which kinda changes the dynamics and relationship into a paramilitary force rather then a Law enforcement agency.

Most of this stems from the 1994 North Hollywood shoot out between LAPD and a couple of bank robbers where FULL body armor, and had automatic weapons. SWAT was too far away, cops and civilians in the wrong place at the wrong time were being cut down, and all the cops had were handguns and shotguns (that will do nothing against body armor). So, after that, with the approval of the Mayor and Govenor, LAPD started carrying AR15s in the trunks of their cruisers. Shortly after, most major cities started to follow suit (which, honestly, wasn't a bad idea).

What many people fail to understand about police: you can not have just a regular beat cop, patrolman, SWAT, HRT, crowd control team.... because they can't be anywhere in the city in time. So, the regular cop has to be able to function as any one of them, at any given time. And to feel otherwise is totally unrealistic.

We are born with 2 fears: Falling, and loud noises, all others are LEARNED.
You say fear is all in the mind. I say you are right; for it is our imagination that makes things seem scary.
If you want to learn how to not be afraid, ask.

#233    ancient astronaut

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:38 AM

I'm gonna go ahead and call Bullsh*t on this one.

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#234    MstrMsn

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:46 AM

Call Bullsh*t on what, exactly?

We are born with 2 fears: Falling, and loud noises, all others are LEARNED.
You say fear is all in the mind. I say you are right; for it is our imagination that makes things seem scary.
If you want to learn how to not be afraid, ask.

#235    The Silver Thong

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:53 AM

View PostMstrMsn, on 23 March 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

Call Bullsh*t on what, exactly?

What is a police officers job.

Sittin back drinkin beer watchin the world take it's course.


The only thing god can't do is prove he exists ?

#236    AsteroidX

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 05:05 AM

Quote

Most of this stems from the 1994 North Hollywood shoot out between LAPD and a couple of bank robbers where FULL body armor, and had automatic weapons. SWAT was too far away, cops and civilians in the wrong place at the wrong time were being cut down, and all the cops had were handguns and shotguns (that will do nothing against body armor). So, after that, with the approval of the Mayor and Govenor, LAPD started carrying AR15s in the trunks of their cruisers. Shortly after, most major cities started to follow suit (which, honestly, wasn't a bad idea).

What many people fail to understand about police: you can not have just a regular beat cop, patrolman, SWAT, HRT, crowd control team.... because they can't be anywhere in the city in time. So, the regular cop has to be able to function as any one of them, at any given time. And to feel otherwise is totally unrealistic.

A great description of community policing.


#237    MstrMsn

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 05:28 AM

View PostThe Silver Thong, on 23 March 2013 - 04:53 AM, said:

What is a police officers job.

Enforcing city ordanances, state laws and federal laws. What's your point?

We are born with 2 fears: Falling, and loud noises, all others are LEARNED.
You say fear is all in the mind. I say you are right; for it is our imagination that makes things seem scary.
If you want to learn how to not be afraid, ask.

#238    Yes_Man

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:05 AM

News stories like these or opnions are only trying to rear up people with guns in order to create a civil war


#239    lightly

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:13 PM

View Postand then, on 14 February 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

Funny... this song and dance reminds me of the answer to the Fair Housing Act in the south.  When one could not legally discriminate against a black family moving into a "white" neighborhood, the neighborhoods just became too expensive and exclusive for blacks to afford.  No discrimination here... they can move in any time they like - IF they can afford the price.

  hi and then,   Exclusive is discriminatory?   Many of "them" might not want to live in a neighborhood where "they"  are not welcome?  Certainly,  some could afford to?

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#240    Thanato

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 01:23 PM

I can 100% guarantee that if the order came down, even if the top brass was to go along with it. This would split the US Military and then there would be infighting. Many Soldiers, Sailors, Aircrew, and Marines would refuse to follow these orders as they are against the oath they made to protect the US, the Laws thay are bound to follow, both Domestic and International. I can tell you this, any soldier who willfully follows and order to engage unarmed civilians has just committed a crime.

Many people think Military Members are just mindless robots who will follow orders no matter what. This is a fallacy, we are intelligent, we have to be. Given today's state of world affairs, technology, and the pressures put on us by the media and the people we've sworn to protect we have evolved since the days of the First World War. With the advent of Youtube and other social Media Soldiers are well informed about what is going on in the world. If the order comes down to my Brothers and Sisters down south, I can say with confidence that 8 out of 10 of them will refuse. Those last two will soon see the light of day, or the end of a barrel.

~Thanato

Edited by Thanato, 23 March 2013 - 01:24 PM.

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