147 replies to this topic

[karmakazi]

Timonthy, on 09 June 2012 - 04:38 AM, said:

can't comprehend science/logic/reality, or want an easy explanation for everything?

Let's get serious.

Religion, the paranormal etc. are very convenient explanations for confusing things in our lives.

The ability to create illogical and unsupported explanations is one that we all posses. Any person can dream up their own fantastic solutions to things that may be otherwise explained by more logical means.
The only things that have ever been proven have been through scientific means. And once they're proven they don't seem as special anymore to the people who believed otherwise.

So:

Is it taking the easy way out by believing in religion or otherwise?

Does it make life easier neglecting evidence and blindly following unsubstantiated beliefs?

Are people just not willing to accept that the truths in science etc. are hard to understand and that we will never understand everything?

I'm willing to accept that there may be more to life, and if so I'll shake God (that's any God, belief system, or otherwise) by the hand at heavens gate, congratulate him on his ongoing grand deception, and he'll accept me for who I am because he will appreciate I've lived logically and had no evidence to support his existence.
It's actually pretty amazing to consider how insignificant we are in relation to everything that we know exists. And everything that we know, our knowledge of the extent of the universe, could be worth but a grain of sand in relation to what's really out there.

There are answers for everything. But we will never find them all.

Can you appreciate that everything could be possibly explained logically?

I think that just as nature & nuture have a roll in a child's behavior as they grow up and as adults, these two factors also affect how people feel about religion.

Children look up to their parents, and even after they leave the nest many do not wish to anger, upset or defy their parents.  They may stay with the religion they were taught because of this moreso than because it makes sense.

Some people convert to a religion after times of great hardship... or if they have never felt that they belonged anywhere, a church where they do feel like they belong will feel like a safe haven.

Still others may be somewhat gullible and take the word of other people who give off an air of authority.  They will convert to a religion because they trust that whomever told them about it is both correct and has their best intrests at heart.  They will listen to arguments against evolution or any other concept because they think that the source is trustworthy and knowledgable.

Most people are afraid of death and seek immortality in a multitude of ways.  This includes having lots of kids, trying to become famous, trying to get rich, and, yes, seeking a religion that promises a type of immortality.

And then there are those who want to feel special... who want people's attention and a good story is a great way to capture that attention and feel important for a while.  I think this drives a portion of the paranormal / alien stories.


But then there are people like me.  I don't like religion.  Any religion.  I don't like what people do with religion.  I don't believe the biblical god or that of any religious myth is the great power they are made out to be.  I do not fear death because there is no point in fearing the inevitable.  I'm not afraid of ceasing to exist, I'm not afraid of reincarnating a thousand more times, I'm not afraid of purgatory or hell or whatever else may be waiting.

I have zero interest in upholding what my mom taught me... especially because I can see in her that she doesn't truly believe what is taught in her church and it scares the living crap out of her... so she buries it and tells herself if she goes to church enough and prays often enough, she'll prove her worth and go to heaven.  Maybe I reject religion partially because of her.  Maybe it's because it just plain feels wrong to me.  When I went to church, everyone around me felt incredibly fake.  There was something behind their eyes that was... I don't know.  Almost dead.  Wilted, shadowed, empty.


I do however have a strong feeling that there is something more out there than what we can see, taste, smell, touch and hear.  I don't know what it is, but as logical and pragmatic as I can be, I just can't shake the feeling.

It's like love.  Either you feel it or you don't, and there's no forcing it.

[Imaginarynumber1]

Seeker79, on 09 June 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

By those standards gravity does not exist. We measure things by their effects. Just because we can't reduce the effect to something understandable dosnt mean it dosn't exist. The soul is that pinpoint of self Awareness and hall of mirrors behind the eyes. and no we do not fully understand why it exists as aposed us just being a non sentient biological robot.

Your reasoning of why there is no soul is a Petitio Principii fallacy.

It is not illogical to be spiritual or religious. But this is a standard topic on these forums and I'm just tired of repeating myself. Look around a bit, you might be surprised to discovery spirituality is for more robust than you think it is.

So me the effects of a soul that we can measure that isn't easily explained by something else. You might want to believe in the concept, but that doesn't make it true.

[Royal]

Personally, I'm not the most religious person around,and at the same time I'm not the most scientific either,but I guarantee that somewhere around 90% of the adult population of this planet believe that at this very moment they have in their personnal possesion a soul.Also please explain to me that when a loved one dies,suddenly and unexpectly,what science is it that kicks you in the stomach?

Edited by Royal, 09 June 2012 - 07:50 PM.

[_Only]

Imaginarynumber1, on 09 June 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

So me the effects of a soul that we can measure that isn't easily explained by something else. You might want to believe in the concept, but that doesn't make it true.

Give it some time. We're still a baby of a human race in terms of figuring these type of things out. We're still working on figuring out consciousness. Once we figure that out, looking to see if that soul thing exists could be a next step. But until science catches up to the intricacies of conscious thinking, besides watching what neurons fire when people think about a certain thing, etc. , like I said, continue thinking however you want. You're asking us laymen to give evidence of something that is outside of the physical, You're expecting others to think the same way as you. You want evidence from outside, others look for evidence inside. If you think that's bologna, that's your right to disagree. But until we find an outside way to measure the inside world, no one can prove what you want to see, and you can't prove a negative. So you can hold your breath or not.

So keep your opinion, and wait for outside study on the conscious mind.

[Seeker79]

Imaginarynumber1, on 09 June 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

So me the effects of a soul that we can measure that isn't easily explained by something else. You might want to believe in the concept, but that doesn't make it true.

What is easily explained exactly?

[Imaginarynumber1]

Seeker79, on 10 June 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

What is easily explained exactly?

I meant to type "show me". Stupid typo.

[WilliamW]

Imaginarynumber1, on 09 June 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

Show me the effects of a soul that we can measure that isn't easily explained by something else. You might want to believe in the concept, but that doesn't make it true.

To do so - all involved would have to agree first to 'what is a soul' and from that point then find explanation.

It may be just a matter of what science regards as the 'unconscious' is the same as what religion regards as 'the soul'  I think so anyway...that these two things are the same thing with different names.

Religion may be ahead in this area of exploration as science hasn't discovered any measuring device to delve into 'what is this thing we refer to as the unconscious?' Is it even 'unconscious?'

However, religion(s) may have 'the wrong end of the stick' or as likely, are focused on different aspects of this thing called 'the soul' and embattled with other religions on 'definition' and thus 'purpose' ...

[Odin11]

jbondo, on 09 June 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

One thing I believe in perpetuity is that because more and more Americans push God out each day, the country is suffering for it. Why are we seeing people shooting up schools and workplaces, etc... almost weekly now? Americans now accept sinful nature as being normal and pop culture/the media is what they look to as their God.

If this is true then why do the most secular countries in world also have the lowest amount of violent crime?

jbondo, on 09 June 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

God's influence used to be everywhere, even in Hollywood if you can believe it. If a child attempts to pray in school today, it's paramount to a crime.

You know full well that no one thinks a child praying in school is a crime. But if the school tries to make a school wide prayer then it is.

[Imaginarynumber1]

jbondo, on 09 June 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

I will continue to have Faith in God and His Word. This doesn't mean that science has no place in my life as I love science, but if you look at science from an unbiased perspective, you can find as many "way out there" theories as nonbelievers seem to see in Christianity.

If you really examine the scientific thought process regarding the very existence of "everything" and how it came to be, it sounds more than a little crazy. Furthermore, as a Christian, I can't pick and choose what I accept from God's Word to satify science. However, it is unfortunate that 'many' nonbelievers just assume that Christians have no place for science when nothing could be further from the truth.

One thing I believe in perpetuity is that because more and more Americans push God out each day, the country is suffering for it. Why are we seeing people shooting up schools and workplaces, etc... almost weekly now? Americans now accept sinful nature as being normal and pop culture/the media is what they look to as their God.

God's influence used to be everywhere, even in Hollywood if you can believe it. If a child attempts to pray in school today, it's paramount to a crime.

Unfortunately, nonbelievers have a jaded view of Christians and frankly, it's because of cue's from the media and those who do outlandinsh things while using Christianity as a cover. The media loves to bash Chrisianity as we see only the crazy stories or when a Christian screws up. We never hear about the missionaries who risk their lives daily helping the needy in third world nations. If it were not for Christians, the death/homeless/crime rate would be much greater than it is now.

Getting back on point:

True Christians are Bible believers who love their neighbor as they love themselves. They also have plenty of room for scientific discovery.

Your claim about Americas suffering for pushing out god is ludicrous. Are we suffering for pushing out Zues, or Thor, or Ra? What about Baal and Anu and Isis?
Is your life poorer for not having Janus or Pan or Shiva around? I suppose it's the media at fault for you having no belief in any of those gods, too?
And the idea that if we were all christians that death, homeless and crime rates would be lower is also laughable. Morality is not exclusive to YOUR religion, nor any religion for that matter.

[Beckys_Mom]

Dash--, on 09 June 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

As for fundamentalists telling you you're going to hell if you don't believe.lol
I don't remember Jesus damning Thomas to hell for his doubt.

Correct..............and he didn't damn anyone else to hell for  not accepting him as the true  messiah, and how they  blasphemed calling him the unclean spirit,, spat on him, hit him...cheered as he was suffering... NO... What did he say about them to his father  as a last request?........... >>>  Forgive them father, they know NOT what they do................ So I do not beleive  if Jesus is for real, that he would damn anyone for not accepting who he is or his gift as they call it   to hell, even though some really sad uptight christians will say he does...   Some are clueless  to this, those who cannot see this... the angry and most selfish of followers will be likely to believe this is true....  Too many are too selfish to want others to follow their path, that  even if you point out this above... they will not like it....

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 10 June 2012 - 12:10 PM.

[Viral]

Royal, on 09 June 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

Personally, I'm not the most religious person around,and at the same time I'm not the most scientific either,but I guarantee that somewhere around 90% of the adult population of this planet believe that at this very moment they have in their personnal possesion a soul.Also please explain to me that when a loved one dies,suddenly and unexpectly,what science is it that kicks you in the stomach?

Belief does not affect reality. I believe it was Anatole France or perhaps someone who was writing his memoirs said the quote "If one million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing" and I find it very applicable here. As for 'what science is it?' well, it's Psychology, it's to do with emotional connection to someone and in turn the pain of loss, it's the same as happiness, it's a feeling created by our own intelligence.

Of course there are many viable theories on emotion, none of which are "it's my soul".

[Paranoid Android]

Timonthy, on 09 June 2012 - 04:38 AM, said:

can't comprehend science/logic/reality, or want an easy explanation for everything?

Let's get serious.

Religion, the paranormal etc. are very convenient explanations for confusing things in our lives.....

...Can you appreciate that everything could be possibly explained logically?

You write this post as if religion/God-belief and science/logic are incompatible concepts.  Either you accept science and logic or you take the "easy way out" and follow a religion.  Some people may be like this.  A young earth creationist may feel it is easier to accept that God did it in six thousand years, but religious belief is a spectrum of ideas, not a tightly defined thing.  Two Christians can accept science in totally separate ways.  A young earth creationist may accept only what certain people say about science.  On the other hand, a Theistic Evolutionist accepts that science can explain the origin of life and that evolution is currently the best scientific explanation for that, but underlying this approach they believe in a creator as the cause of that process.

Being religious does not mean being illogical, or a hater of science.  And being atheistic does not automatically mean that person is logical or scientific.  We human beings all live in a spectrum of ideas shaped by our experience, education, family, background, history, some other things as well but most importantly by our choices.  There is no "one size fits all" description for a person who professes any specific type of belief or non-belief.

[Dash--]

Paranoid Android, on 11 June 2012 - 04:40 AM, said:

You write this post as if religion/God-belief and science/logic are incompatible concepts.  Either you accept science and logic or you take the "easy way out" and follow a religion.  Some people may be like this.  A young earth creationist may feel it is easier to accept that God did it in six thousand years, but religious belief is a spectrum of ideas, not a tightly defined thing.  Two Christians can accept science in totally separate ways.  A young earth creationist may accept only what certain people say about science.  On the other hand, a Theistic Evolutionist accepts that science can explain the origin of life and that evolution is currently the best scientific explanation for that, but underlying this approach they believe in a creator as the cause of that process.

Being religious does not mean being illogical, or a hater of science.  And being atheistic does not automatically mean that person is logical or scientific.  We human beings all live in a spectrum of ideas shaped by our experience, education, family, background, history, some other things as well but most importantly by our choices.  There is no "one size fits all" description for a person who professes any specific type of belief or non-belief.

^Nice post

I believe Maddox coined the terms "agent" and "mechanism"

God being the agent,and science the mechanism.Fits well into my belief.

p.s.like the signature

[Beckys_Mom]

Dash--, on 11 June 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

p.s.like the signature

You like PA's signature? The picture part?   If so you cool beans I like that too.. Best signature pic there is  on UM

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 11 June 2012 - 03:14 PM.

[Paranoid Android]

Beckys_Mom, on 11 June 2012 - 03:13 PM, said:

You like PA's signature? The picture part?   If so you cool beans I like that too.. Best signature pic there is  on UM

Aww, thanks BM.  I'm glad you like my signature picture.  Someone here made it for me and fit it just perfectly for the forum, and I love them for it.  Off the top of my head, I can't recall who that was though.....

But I think Dash was speaking of his/her signature, the quote from Einstein about wisdom (unless the reference is to the other section of my signature about opinions, but wisdom seems a better idea ).