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Doggerland


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#46    Abramelin

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 03:35 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 07 October 2009 - 03:24 PM, said:

It seems that if there was culture up in the dry doggerland, the harsh conditions would have restricted its sophistication.
Br Cornelius

But if you had read all I posted here, then you would have known that the conditions in Doggerland (around 8000 BP) were not harsh at all,  the area is now seen as some kind of 'paradise', and not at all like the harsh tundra it was always thought to be.

The tundra like conditions did exist right after the end of the ice age, but these conditions changed for the better in the next couple of thousand years.

Edited by Abramelin, 07 October 2009 - 03:36 PM.


#47    Abramelin

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 03:38 PM

A bit more about these Fomorians:

The origins of the Fomorians, also known as Fomhoire or Fomorii, are unknown. The name Fomorian can be derived from an ancient name for Scandinavia, Fomoria. The Fomorians are however described as dark haired and dark toned creatures, features suggesting a Mediterranean origin. Apart from Tory Island the Fomorians are said to have lived also in Scotland and Norway.
Their name might also be derived from the Gaelic Faoi Mhuir, meaning Beneath the Sea, although other scholars think that Mor means Phantom or Spirit.


In Irish mythology the Fomorians, often described as sea creatures or giants or otherwise misshapen humans, represent evil and darkness. Some scholars assume that the Fomorians were the Neolithic farmers of Ireland.

http://www.triskelle...060.015.010.030




#48    Br Cornelius

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 03:41 PM

View PostThe Spartan, on 07 October 2009 - 03:29 PM, said:

i knew that Br. Cornelius would be posting soon with his sundaland in Indonesia theory (not his but Oppenheimer's)!!
Is that a problem.
I made it very clear it was Oppenheimers theory.
If doggerland had culture it needs an explanation as to why all memory of it is lost, whereas a contemperous culture resonates down through history. There is also the contemperous sunken lands of Tamil, which again  have good documentation within the Tamil tradition.
The most reasonable explanation is that it was simple and brutish and didn't have a strong oral tradition- and as Abramelin suggests, it was wipped out by sophisticated later invaders.

Possibly it was Neandethal in nature, and this is why they are described as Giant, frightening brutish monsters, obviously significantly different to the latter invaders.
Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 07 October 2009 - 03:45 PM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#49    Br Cornelius

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 03:47 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 07 October 2009 - 03:35 PM, said:

But if you had read all I posted here, then you would have known that the conditions in Doggerland (around 8000 BP) were not harsh at all,  the area is now seen as some kind of 'paradise', and not at all like the harsh tundra it was always thought to be.

The tundra like conditions did exist right after the end of the ice age, but these conditions changed for the better in the next couple of thousand years.
Sorry I jumped in late on this one. I will read back.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#50    Abramelin

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 03:54 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 07 October 2009 - 03:41 PM, said:

Is that a problem.
I made it very clear it was Oppenheimers theory.
If doggerland had culture it needs an explanation as to why all memory of it is lost, whereas a contemperous culture resonates down through history. There is also the contemperous sunken lands of Tamil, which again  have good documentation within the Tamil tradition.
The most reasonable explanation is that it was simple and brutish and didn't have a strong oral tradition- and as Abramelin suggests, it was wipped out by sophisticated later invaders.

Possibly it was Neandethal in nature, and this is why they are described as Giant, frightening brutish monsters, obviously significantly different to the latter invaders.
Br Cornelius

Well, this is fun: I was actually thinking these Fomorians might have been Neanderthals (and dark skinned, not light skinned as is being assumed by scientists now) !! But then ... why are there no Neanderthal remains found in Ireland?

Maybe they died out before the ice sheets in Ireland retreated after the end of the last ice age?
http://www.rootsweb....y/oldulster.htm

-

Maybe the existing culture in Doggerland was brutish, or... it really happened so long ago that nothing recognizable got saved in mythology.

Edited by Abramelin, 07 October 2009 - 04:03 PM.


#51    Br Cornelius

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 04:07 PM

Someone mentioned that the Gauls had legends of sunken lands. It seems though that the Gauls are all meditaranian in origin and so it would be much more likely that they carried with them the root legend of the Bible, and hence the flooding of Sunduland and the Arabian Gulf.

Surprisingly, though Ireland has had a lot or Archeology carried out, most of it is on the massive abundance of visible remains. Ireland was so radically transformed by the first Neolithic farmers that most of what came before is now buried many meters down under blanket bog. Surprisingly little is known of the period before. What is evident was that Ice sheets covered almost all of Ireland, and would have prevented much perminant habitation, and destroyed almost all evidence of any that was there. Perfect conditions for the cold adapted Neandethals maybe.

Br Cornelius

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Robert Anton Wilson

#52    Abramelin

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 04:18 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 07 October 2009 - 04:07 PM, said:

Someone mentioned that the Gauls had legends of sunken lands. It seems though that the Gauls are all meditaranian in origin and so it would be much more likely that they carried with them the root legend of the Bible, and hence the flooding of Sunduland and the Arabian Gulf.

Surprisingly, though Ireland has had a lot or Archeology carried out, most of it is on the massive abundance of visible remains. Ireland was so radically transformed by the first Neolithic farmers that most of what came before is now buried many meters down under blanket bog. Surprisingly little is known of the period before. What is evident was that Ice sheets covered almost all of Ireland, and would have prevented much perminant habitation, and destroyed almost all evidence of any that was there. Perfect conditions for the cold adapted Neandethals maybe.

Br Cornelius

Yes, there were legends alright, but about Ys and Avalon and Lyonesse, and that must have happened many thousands of years after Doggerland got flooded by that tsunami caused by the Storegga Slide (6100 BC).

The Neanderthals may have lived there in Ireland, but that was maybe 20,000 or more years ago.


--



Paleontologists and Archeologists believe that the first humans came across a land bridge created by a mini ice age to the area of Antrim Ireland around 8,000B.C. Some think they may have come by wooden boat or raft. [LOL, the Fomorians??] By radio-carbon tests they theorize a racial continuity between the Mesolithic communities found in North Ireland, Wales and Scotland. If accurate, the timeframe of habitation in Ireland is pushed back to 10,000 years, in substantial agreement with findings of some Archeologists.

Thirty years ago archaeologists excavating in County Derry found fragments of Mesolithic era huts and charcoal evidently from cooking fires that were later carbon dated to between 6,500 to 7,000B.C. A beach in County Antrim yielded thousands of flint tools including knives and arrowheads. Over in  County Offaly archaeologists found a Mesolithic settlement at Lough ( Lake ) Boora.

Evidence suggests that humans from Antrim spread south down the coast of Ireland to County Cork and up inland rivers to Connaught. At the mouth of Galway Bay on the west coast of Ireland lies the Aran Islands, where evidence suggests habitation in 6,000B.C. Co-incidentally, 6,000B.C. is about the earliest estimate of the arrival in Ireland of the first tribe of so called Celts.

To summarize the Mesolithic period, the people of that era were hunters and gatherers. Some of the earliest symbols found on rocks suggest that the men hunted wild boar in the winter; Their hunting weapons were tipped with flint; Their diet was rich in meat, supplanted by nuts and berries gathered by the women of the tribe; They cooked outside and lived in small huts covered with animal skins.

http://www.rootsweb....y/oldulster.htm


Damn, these Celts whiped out the last refugees from Doggerland...  Posted Image




#53    Br Cornelius

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 04:29 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 07 October 2009 - 04:18 PM, said:

Yes, there were legends alright, but about Ys and Avalon and Lyonesse, and that must have happened many thousands of years after Doggerland got flooded by that tsunami caused by the Storegga Slide (6100 BC).

The Neanderthals may have lived there in Ireland, but that was maybe 20,000 or more years ago.


--



Paleontologists and Archeologists believe that the first humans came across a land bridge created by a mini ice age to the area of Antrim Ireland around 8,000B.C. Some think they may have come by wooden boat or raft. [LOL, the Fomorians??] By radio-carbon tests they theorize a racial continuity between the Mesolithic communities found in North Ireland, Wales and Scotland. If accurate, the timeframe of habitation in Ireland is pushed back to 10,000 years, in substantial agreement with findings of some Archeologists.

Thirty years ago archaeologists excavating in County Derry found fragments of Mesolithic era huts and charcoal evidently from cooking fires that were later carbon dated to between 6,500 to 7,000B.C. A beach in County Antrim yielded thousands of flint tools including knives and arrowheads. Over in  County Offaly archaeologists found a Mesolithic settlement at Lough ( Lake ) Boora.

Evidence suggests that humans from Antrim spread south down the coast of Ireland to County Cork and up inland rivers to Connaught. At the mouth of Galway Bay on the west coast of Ireland lies the Aran Islands, where evidence suggests habitation in 6,000B.C. Co-incidentally, 6,000B.C. is about the earliest estimate of the arrival in Ireland of the first tribe of so called Celts.

To summarize the Mesolithic period, the people of that era were hunters and gatherers. Some of the earliest symbols found on rocks suggest that the men hunted wild boar in the winter; Their hunting weapons were tipped with flint; Their diet was rich in meat, supplanted by nuts and berries gathered by the women of the tribe; They cooked outside and lived in small huts covered with animal skins.

http://www.rootsweb....y/oldulster.htm


Damn, these Celts whiped out the last refugees from Doggerland...  Posted Image

So it seems that they were homo sapiens. There time of migration was probably far enough apart  for them to have been visably very different and possibly physically adapted to different conditions, hence the description of the Foromrian. It doesn't take to long for these divergances to happen - look at the Papau peoples and the South East asians.
I seem to recall that the book of invasions describes another people called the Firbolg which came before the Foromrians. Possibly these are Neandethals.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 07 October 2009 - 04:31 PM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#54    Abramelin

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 04:33 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 07 October 2009 - 04:29 PM, said:

So it seems that they were homo sapiens. There time of migration was probably far enough apart  for them to have been visably very different and possibly physically adapted to different conditions, hence the description of the Foromrian. It doesn't take to long for these divergances to happen - look at the Papau peoples and the South East asians.
I seem to recall that the book of invasions describes another people called the Firbolg which came before the Foromrians. Possibly these are Neandethals.

Br Cornelius

The Neanderthal thing was just a joke...

But according the the "Book of Invasions" (please read my former posts), the Fomorians were already living there long before Partholan, or the Tuatha De Danann and Firbolgs showed up.


#55    Br Cornelius

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 04:38 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 07 October 2009 - 04:33 PM, said:

The Neanderthal thing was just a joke...

But according the the "Book of Invasions" (please read my former posts), the Fomorians were already living there long before Partholan, or the Tuatha De Danann and Firbolgs showed up.

Thanks for the correction.

It seems its a long standing tradition to wipe out the "natives" rather than assimilate them.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#56    Abramelin

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 04:45 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 07 October 2009 - 04:38 PM, said:

Thanks for the correction.

It seems its a long standing tradition to wipe out the "natives" rather than assimilate them.

Br Cornelius

Yeah, and that is what MIGHT have happened, and why these Fomorians were being described as sea-faring brutes, pirates, good-for-nothings.

On the other hand, according to stories in that Book of Invasions/Conquests these Fomorians lived together with the Firbolgs for quite some time without war.


Btw, look here:

New DNA Research Shows Irish Are Neanderthals


Posted Image


#57    Abramelin

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 05:05 PM

Damn, and I thought I was being original when I assumed the Fomorians and Doggerlanders were maybe one and the same people:


I've been reading alot on British myths and legends, and often are described the mythic invasions, I'm curious as to what mythical invasion these people belonged to, Fomorians perhaps? Fomorians are said to be large, ugly, seafaring, and ghosts of the past predating Partholon's settlement(Parthelon being responsible for Med. populations in the Isle's perhaps?), the original inhabitants of the British Isle's, and whatnot. If haplogroup I2b1 pre-dates any other haplogroup in the Isle's, due to it being a survivor of the Doggerland population, that would make it coincide with the Fomorians would it not? And naturally these I2b1 carriers would most likely be rather large from constantly hunting mamoths, having Upper Paleolithic physique, naturally Endomorphic as protection from the cold etc...

Most of this is inquery/question, I'm trying to connect modern research with ancient myths, to see if there's any grain of possible truth within these myths since it is said that many myths and legends started out as truth then became elaborated due to the alterations caused by oral tradition/"telephone effect/fish story effect".

http://anthroforum.c...read.php?t=2924





#58    Enigmatic Annasawzi

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 05:09 PM

View Postjaylemurph, on 05 October 2009 - 08:57 PM, said:

Be fair, Abe. At least 20% of the threads in the forum are "OMG, from my detailed 23 minutes of interwebz research, I totes discovered Atlantis in Gabon/Hobart, Tansmania/Fairbanks, Alaska/the asteroid Ceres/the next parallel dimension over but one."

Pointing out a thread here is not about Atlantis is a positive service to posters.

--Jaylemurph


Ha ha ha, you put my home town in the middle of that thread. It makes more sense if it's an invasion by Hyperborian Mole men then repties from Niburu(orwhateveritscalledland). I personally like the land bridge idea for Native Americans, then most of the other stuff, or even better how most islanders throughout the pacific got to where they are today. Lots of cool strange things, like de Comte'!!!


EA

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#59    Abramelin

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 05:32 PM

And a bit more about our pirates, The Fomorians:


Doggerland: the cultural dynamics of a shifting coastline
by: Bryony J. Coles
Geological Society, London, Special Publications, Vol. 175, No. 1. (1 January 2000), pp. 393-401.


Abstract

The landmass now covered by the North Sea, here referred to as Doggerland, has had an important but neglected influence on the course of prehistory in northwestern Europe. The physical character of Doggerland in the Late Glacial and earlier Holocene is assessed, together with its re-colonization by humans after the Last Glacial Maximum. The development of a maritime-based society along the northern coast of Doggerland is postulated, and it is argued that the coastal inhabitants, with their specialized adaptation to this zone, will have moved with the coast as relative sea-levels changed. The interactions of coastal and inland populations are considered, including the probable influence of the coastal groups in delaying the spread of farming into the region. 10.1144/GSL.SP.2000.175.01.27



http://www.citeulike...article/2696897





#60    Abramelin

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 06:03 PM

A lot of extra information about Doggerland can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia....-coles1998_0-13



Around 7000 BCE
From the end of the Younger Dryas, tree cover (probably birch, willow, alder, hazel, juniper, pine) spread quickly, although initially it may not have formed a uniform dense forest. ("Birch woodland, with pine to the south-east.") Typical mammals at this time were "horse, aurochs, red and roe deer, elk, wild pig, otter, and beaver". There must have been much wetland area due to melting ice sheets and rising sea levels; these probably had plenty of waterfowl. The wetlands are particularly important for us because they preserved the archaeological evidence well. The estuaries of the large rivers moved inwards, making place to the sea; this was "favourable for human settlement".

Around 6000 BCE there will have been "a mixture of hazel, oak, elm, and alder". ("Hazel woodland, with oak and alder, or oak and elm.") This may have attracted cattle.


Edited by Abramelin, 07 October 2009 - 06:10 PM.





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