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#16    Archangel Oger

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 07:39 PM

From a "big bang" stand point it would have to happened where the largest galaxy structure is....If that helps you... :hmm:


#17    thewonderman

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 10:51 PM

So where did the BB come from ? what is outside of the BB or Universe? How did it come from nothing?

For something to be created there must have been a Creator

#18    ShadowSot

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 04:54 AM

View PostArchangel Oger, on 06 July 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

From a "big bang" stand point it would have to happened where the largest galaxy structure is....If that helps you... :hmm:
Um... no, not really. Dunno why you think that.

As far we know, "center of the universe" doesn't exist. All things are expanding from each other at the same rate, with each from their perspective being the center of the expansion.

It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
-Terry Pratchett

#19    bladnoch15

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 05:06 AM

View Postquestionmark, on 05 July 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

Again, imagine your are blowing up a balloon, that balloon gets bigger. Now this balloon is the universe. There is a definable circumference where the balloon was when you started to blow air in it, right?

And don't try it with your standard answer, we have seen it 3 times.

The balloon analogy doesn't really work when explaining the universe. When scientist talk of the expanding universe and big bang, the expansion in this case also means expanding through time. The universe is measured in 4 dimensions, not 3, you have to account for time. It gets very complicated and is not an easy concept to grasp, especially when dealing with it on the scale of the universe.


#20    questionmark

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 11:26 AM

View Postbladnoch15, on 07 July 2012 - 05:06 AM, said:

The balloon analogy doesn't really work when explaining the universe. When scientist talk of the expanding universe and big bang, the expansion in this case also means expanding through time. The universe is measured in 4 dimensions, not 3, you have to account for time. It gets very complicated and is not an easy concept to grasp, especially when dealing with it on the scale of the universe.

complicated and impossible to grasp is only synonymous for "we don't know". Factual  is easy and self evident.

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#21    Uncle Sam

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 11:37 AM

When the Big Bang first happen, dark matter quickly spread through the universe at the speed of light, spreading quickly throughout the universe in clumps. Non-heavy elements then followed at a much slower rate. As the Big Bang cooled, the Non-Heavy Elements collected into galaxies that exhibit mass (God Particle) that can be slowed by Dark Matter as they collided with each other. Dark Matter creates its own gravitational pull but doesn't interact with normal matter we see in our universe today. This creates galaxies that lag behind the others, making the universe not evenly circle that you would suspect from a big explosion.

As the older Non-Heavy Element stars exploded, they recycle their material to create heavier elements that can interact with the Dark Matters gravitational pull to slow the galaxies down even further. Because of this we also see galaxies colliding with each other because one is moving faster than the other, meaning some galaxies are catching up to the older galaxies and colliding to create mergers between the two.

This is the best I can explain it with the limited knowledge we have today... of course dumb down as much as I can.

Side note: 4th dimension the other hand is a conceptional module that was created to explain the expansion of the universe, starting from the initial big bang till the present we see today. While the concept of time was created to keep track of the orbits around the sun. Of course they didn't know that we orbited the sun at the time, they thought the sun orbited us and we were the center of the universe.

Edited by Uncle Sam, 07 July 2012 - 11:46 AM.

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#22    bladnoch15

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 05:15 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 07 July 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

complicated and impossible to grasp is only synonymous for "we don't know". Factual  is easy and self evident.

Ok, let me re-phrase that. The question being asked is 'where' did the big bang happen. That's not a valid question, the question is when did it happen, at what point in time did it occur. The location is a measurement of time not it's physical space.


#23    ShadowSot

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 06:14 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 07 July 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

complicated and impossible to grasp is only synonymous for "we don't know". Factual  is easy and self evident.
Not really, no.
Or actually yes. It's been said several times, your question misunderstands the reality. Asking where the center is is a bit like asking where the starting point is on a circle.

It's simple enough to say there's no center of the universe, but to break it down to the intricaies...
To take it from a ancient civilizations perspective, we can quickly talk about the Egyptian religion, but to explain would be rather complicated.
And we evolved with concepts of gods and goddesses.
Here we're talking about attempting to describe something in 4 dimensions with a language intended to scream at the monkeys in the other tree.

It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
-Terry Pratchett

#24    questionmark

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 06:57 PM

View PostShadowSot, on 07 July 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

Not really, no.
Or actually yes. It's been said several times, your question misunderstands the reality. Asking where the center is is a bit like asking where the starting point is on a circle.

It's simple enough to say there's no center of the universe, but to break it down to the intricaies...
To take it from a ancient civilizations perspective, we can quickly talk about the Egyptian religion, but to explain would be rather complicated.
And we evolved with concepts of gods and goddesses.
Here we're talking about attempting to describe something in 4 dimensions with a language intended to scream at the monkeys in the other tree.

We are not talking 4 dimensions because the when is completely irrelevant to the question. The question is the point in which the universe was the smallest not when the universe was the smallest (which we know pretty well, between 12 and 14 billion years ago).

From what I know now is that we cannot possible know that not because we are talking 20 dimensions but because we don't know how the universe expanded, we just know it does.

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#25    Archangel Oger

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 07:16 PM

View PostShadowSot, on 07 July 2012 - 04:54 AM, said:

Um... no, not really. Dunno why you think that.

As far we know, "center of the universe" doesn't exist. All things are expanding from each other at the same rate, with each from their perspective being the center of the expansion.

That's not exactly correct, considering the fact that within the supposed future we will have the Andromeda and milky way galaxies colliding with one another. So it does have an actual center if you will, much like a slingshot does.


#26    sepulchrave

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 07:30 PM

View PostArchangel Oger, on 07 July 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

That's not exactly correct, considering the fact that within the supposed future we will have the Andromeda and milky way galaxies colliding with one another. So it does have an actual center if you will, much like a slingshot does.
No, you are confusing "Universe" with "galaxy".

View Postbladnoch15, on 07 July 2012 - 05:06 AM, said:

The balloon analogy doesn't really work when explaining the universe. When scientist talk of the expanding universe and big bang, the expansion in this case also means expanding through time. The universe is measured in 4 dimensions, not 3, you have to account for time. It gets very complicated and is not an easy concept to grasp, especially when dealing with it on the scale of the universe.
I think the ballloon analogy works ok, but perhaps describing the Universe like an onion is better.
The 3-space component of the Universe are the layers, each layer represents the Universe at a given time.

In dynamic, continuous 4+1 space-time (or any N+M space-time, for that matter) there is a centre to the Universe; in our case that would be the instant of the big bang; that location exists but it is in the distant past.


#27    Archangel Oger

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 07:31 PM

View Postthewonderman, on 06 July 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

So where did the BB come from ? what is outside of the BB or Universe? How did it come from nothing?

"So where did the BB come from"

There would have to been a ddesignerif you will (Outside the constraints of Time as we know it), regardless of anyway you look at it....

"what is outside of the BB or Universe"

Eternity or no "Time"....I was watching Stephen Hawking once and he clearly said that if there were a "God" or "creator" he would have to exist outside the realm of time.....well duh Mr Hawkin'....lol. The concept of "Time" began at the beginning THIS Universe.

"How did it come from nothing?"

Any honest person will tell you it is simply impossible regardless of what they believe, however I will say that a couple have explained that to me before, BUT the chances of it are pretty much void and even if it did, I quickly pointed out that no complex life would/could exist within such a "Universe".


#28    Archangel Oger

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 07:43 PM

View Postsepulchrave, on 07 July 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

No, you are confusing "Universe" with "galaxy".

No, those "galaxies" are contained within THE "universe", not outside




#29    sepulchrave

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 08:47 PM

View PostArchangel Oger, on 07 July 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

No, those "galaxies" are contained within THE "universe", not outside
Precisely, that is why although the Milky Way galaxy and the Andromeda galaxy can have an unambiguous centre (perhaps the centre of mass, or the centre of gravity, etc.), or even the two paired together could have an unambiguous centre, the Universe does not have an unambiguous centre that exists within the space-like portion at any given time.





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