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Free guns for high-crime Neighborhoods


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#16    and then

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 08:45 AM

View PostThanato, on 27 March 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

Why not just give every kid a 6 shooter on his/her 6th birthday?
We used to when I was a kid.  It came on a toy gunbelt and with a cowboy hat :)  But seriously, most kids WERE allowed to learn about guns.  Touch, handle, shoot but ALL with supervision and a no nonsense understanding what the gun could do.  It was kind of hard to think of the thing as a toy when you saw the dead animals after a hunt.  I realize that not all children could have that experience but all young people COULD be taught the safe handling of a firearm just as easily as they can be taught math or how to drive a car.  It's about having the desire to do it.  Shooting sports are a wonderful activity for bonding with friends and learning to be responsible.
What the movies about the old west didn't show was that probably the only people killed with the guns were the drunks and criminals.  The average person KNEW that EVERY ONE of his neighbors was armed and he'd better dang well respect them and their property.

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#17    Coffey

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 11:35 AM

View PostRender, on 27 March 2013 - 10:46 PM, said:


Can't believe i have to explain your own sentences to you.

Firstly, gangsters or criminals, this is a language issue...we get that we mean the same thing, criminals. That's why i wrote criminals also. Sheesh.

Second: You said

So according to you only bad things with guns happen if they are obtained illegally. I mentioned the many tragic events that occured with legally obtained guns, but according to you these events never even happened...because bad things only happen with illegally obtained guns. So im trying to explain to you that in you logic that means that all these legally obtained guns were actually illegally obtained, according to you. So that would make the average American, where many tragic events occured, are criminals for having illegally obtained guns.

Basically what im saying to you is that MANY tragic events have happened with legally obtained guns, so your whole logic is a fallacy.

OK my bad, misunderstood you, I apologize.

Also I see what you mean about that, OK I should have said the majority of crimes are caused by criminals with illegally obtained guns.

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#18    Myles

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 12:26 PM

View PostRender, on 27 March 2013 - 10:46 PM, said:


Can't believe i have to explain your own sentences to you.

Firstly, gangsters or criminals, this is a language issue...we get that we mean the same thing, criminals. That's why i wrote criminals also. Sheesh.

Second: You said

So according to you only bad things with guns happen if they are obtained illegally. I mentioned the many tragic events that occured with legally obtained guns, but according to you these events never even happened...because bad things only happen with illegally obtained guns. So im trying to explain to you that in you logic that means that all these legally obtained guns were actually illegally obtained, according to you. So that would make the average American, where many tragic events occured, are criminals for having illegally obtained guns.

Basically what im saying to you is that MANY tragic events have happened with legally obtained guns, so your whole logic is a fallacy.

The tragic events you speak of are the exception.   I don't think the exceptions should direct the laws on gun control.    Similar to automobiles.   Just because some people will drive drunk and kill people doesn't mean there should be a restriction for me.


#19    preacherman76

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 03:16 PM

View Postand then, on 28 March 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

We used to when I was a kid.  It came on a toy gunbelt and with a cowboy hat :)  But seriously, most kids WERE allowed to learn about guns.  Touch, handle, shoot but ALL with supervision and a no nonsense understanding what the gun could do.  It was kind of hard to think of the thing as a toy when you saw the dead animals after a hunt.  I realize that not all children could have that experience but all young people COULD be taught the safe handling of a firearm just as easily as they can be taught math or how to drive a car.  It's about having the desire to do it.  Shooting sports are a wonderful activity for bonding with friends and learning to be responsible.
What the movies about the old west didn't show was that probably the only people killed with the guns were the drunks and criminals.  The average person KNEW that EVERY ONE of his neighbors was armed and he'd better dang well respect them and their property.

Yep. I was shooting 22 at the litteral age of 5 years old. Just got my 7 year old his first 22. Of course he cant shoot it without my hands on the gun. I dont even let him hold the gun unloaded (accept when Im teaching him to clean it, and its disassembled) But by the time he's old enough to get a hunting license, he will be good enough to send out on his own. Same as my dad did for me.

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#20    Render

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 09:41 PM

View PostMyles, on 28 March 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

The tragic events you speak of are the exception.   I don't think the exceptions should direct the laws on gun control. Similar to automobiles.   Just because some people will drive drunk and kill people doesn't mean there should be a restriction for me.

So because you aren't "planning to be in an accident" you think you shouldn't strap on your safety belt? This shouldn't be a norm, because of the "few" that get killed because of it? Rrrrright.
So you're not "planning to have a tragic acciddent' so there shouldn't be any rules about safely locking them away or heavy training to learn how to operate a gun. Okay, makes perfect sense....if you can predict the future.

And since you're not planning to ever drink and drive (rrrrriiight) there shouldn't be laws about police being able to alcohol checks.

Great fantasy world you got there.


#21    Render

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 09:45 PM

View PostCoffey, on 28 March 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

OK my bad, misunderstood you, I apologize.

Also I see what you mean about that, OK I should have said the majority of crimes are caused by criminals with illegally obtained guns.

Is the majority though? And if it is, is there such a big difference with the accidental shootings? Or shootings where guns were obtained because the owners didn't safely lock them away? And more "legal" scenarios....

Also, you mentioned, as many do. That if their is stricter gun control that somehow only criminals end up with guns and basically every town will be plundered and every man woman and child will get killed.

Then...why doesn't this happen in every country where there are heavy gun restrictions or even gun bans? Apparantly, the opposite happens...when a burglary does happen it's more of a rare occurence someone actually gets shot and murdered. Rare is relative, because every death is one too many, of course. But there is no massive plungering or killing going on. So what's that all about?


#22    Coffey

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 10:17 PM

View PostRender, on 28 March 2013 - 09:45 PM, said:

Is the majority though? And if it is, is there such a big difference with the accidental shootings? Or shootings where guns were obtained because the owners didn't safely lock them away? And more "legal" scenarios....

Also, you mentioned, as many do. That if their is stricter gun control that somehow only criminals end up with guns and basically every town will be plundered and every man woman and child will get killed.

Then...why doesn't this happen in every country where there are heavy gun restrictions or even gun bans? Apparantly, the opposite happens...when a burglary does happen it's more of a rare occurence someone actually gets shot and murdered. Rare is relative, because every death is one too many, of course. But there is no massive plungering or killing going on. So what's that all about?


Chicago has the most restrictive handgun laws in the United states and the highest murder rate.

It's hard to compare the US to other countries as it's so large with more diverse groups that it's not logical to compare with other countries of smaller size. But when looked into, you should see the stabbing the UK has and the horrible crimes that wouldn't happen if we were allowed guns.

Shootings in the US come down to a lot more factors than simply being down to guns being legal.

I'd much rather decent people shot criminals as well, less of the tax payers money having to pay for over crowded prisons like in the UK.

Edited by Coffey, 28 March 2013 - 10:18 PM.

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#23    Render

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 10:43 PM

View PostCoffey, on 28 March 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

Chicago has the most restrictive handgun laws in the United states and the highest murder rate.

It's hard to compare the US to other countries as it's so large with more diverse groups that it's not logical to compare with other countries of smaller size. But when looked into, you should see the stabbing the UK has and the horrible crimes that wouldn't happen if we were allowed guns.

Shootings in the US come down to a lot more factors than simply being down to guns being legal.

I'd much rather decent people shot criminals as well, less of the tax payers money having to pay for over crowded prisons like in the UK.

It's so large with more diverse groups? Hello? Europe?
The argument that the US is larger than other countries doesn't seem to hold up when you compare by rate of 100 000 ppl. The US still trumps most.

So you're bassically saying that Americans are intrinsically more violent and awful that when stricter gun control rules would be imposed everyone would just die in a matter of months.
Because that scenario certainly doesn't happen in the rest of the world.
And to say that a myriad of horrible crimes wouldn't happen if only everyone had a gun is .. so not an argument. In that logic, everyone who already does crime and would use a knife or other means would then use a gun and just make everything 10 times worse. You can do more damage with a gun than a knife in a shorter period of time, there's no refuting that.
Just like you say if there are less guns there will be more knives .. the opposite can be said as well, if guns are allowed they'll replace all the other things and make everything way worse.
There was a case of a guy in Europe who killed and harmed babies with a knife not too long ago. He mentioned in court or to his lawyer that he was mad at the government that he couldn't get access to guns, because he actually wanted to do way more damage.
So that's better according to you? Just preposterous, truly mad.

Shootings come down to a lot of factors, exactly..so why don't you realise there is a psychological factor involved when a burglar knows he is entering a home where there is a 99% chance the owners are armed, that this burglar will be more inclined to use immediate violence and shoot?
When a burglar knows he is entering a home where the owners are most likely not armed there is less reason to escalate the factor and just do a burglary.
Common freaking sense.


#24    Michelle

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 11:06 PM

View PostRender, on 28 March 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:


Shootings come down to a lot of factors, exactly..so why don't you realise there is a psychological factor involved when a burglar knows he is entering a home where there is a 99% chance the owners are armed, that this burglar will be more inclined to use immediate violence and shoot?
When a burglar knows he is entering a home where the owners are most likely not armed there is less reason to escalate the factor and just do a burglary.
Common freaking sense.

So, let's blame the homeowner for the actions of a CRIMINAL. Are you for real?


#25    Render

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 11:08 PM

View PostMichelle, on 28 March 2013 - 11:06 PM, said:

So, let's blame the homeowner for the actions of a CRIMINAL. Are you for real?

You're trying to turn this into a personal thing whilst im talking about common psychological factors. Adrenaline pumps more when going into a high risk situation then when going into a situation where you are more inclined to think you will be able to overpower the situation.You're less inclined to use excessive force. Don't try to turn this into a blame game. Very simplistic reduction, that isn't even a redution, it's changing the subject into something you feel is easier to discuss.

Edited by Render, 28 March 2013 - 11:09 PM.


#26    Michelle

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 11:27 PM

View PostRender, on 28 March 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

You're trying to turn this into a personal thing whilst im talking about common psychological factors. Adrenaline pumps more when going into a high risk situation then when going into a situation where you are more inclined to think you will be able to overpower the situation.You're less inclined to use excessive force. Don't try to turn this into a blame game. Very simplistic reduction, that isn't even a redution, it's changing the subject into something you feel is easier to discuss.

There is nothing personal about it. You are justifying a criminal using a gun, while breaking into someone's home, because the homeowner may be armed. You are free to respond, in any way you wish, to a threat in your home. I, for one, don't care to have a sit down and ask why a strange person is in my house.

Edited by Michelle, 28 March 2013 - 11:29 PM.


#27    Ashotep

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 11:42 PM

The vast majority of gun deaths in the US are from gang violence.  They are constantly killing each other and some of them have to kill someone to make it into the gang.  These deaths rarely make the news, if it did its brief and they probably wouldn't even mention it was gang related.  The accidental deaths, suicides and nuts going off on a rampage is but a small fraction of deaths but they make the news.

Then there's the people that have to defend themselves and those that came to the aid of a police officer.  There was no death because an average law abiding person had a gun and the offender backed off, those are rarely mentioned too.

At first deaths might go up until the criminal realized people were fighting back but in the long run I bet the neighborhood would become much safer.


#28    Render

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 11:45 PM

View PostMichelle, on 28 March 2013 - 11:27 PM, said:

There is nothing personal about it. You are justifying a criminal using a gun, while breaking into someone's home, because the homeowner may be armed. You are free to respond, in any way you wish, to a threat in your home. I, for one, don't care to have a sit down and ask why a strange person is in my house.

There's a difference to trying to talk about/ explain the possible reasoning the body and mind goes through and justifying an act. You don't get this, as many irrational people don't. Sadly they are often the ones to pull the trigger isntead of actually thinking things through. But whatever, put on the blinds and whatever you do don't think! Someone might call you a justifier of murder if you try adn think about things! Pure evil.

If someone explains that drinking and driving is a bad idea because your decision making skills and attention are impaired by drinking alcohol . That is not the same as justifying  a drunk driver hitting another car.


#29    Myles

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 11:49 PM

View PostRender, on 28 March 2013 - 09:41 PM, said:


So because you aren't "planning to be in an accident" you think you shouldn't strap on your safety belt? This shouldn't be a norm, because of the "few" that get killed because of it? Rrrrright.
So you're not "planning to have a tragic acciddent' so there shouldn't be any rules about safely locking them away or heavy training to learn how to operate a gun. Okay, makes perfect sense....if you can predict the future.

And since you're not planning to ever drink and drive (rrrrriiight) there shouldn't be laws about police being able to alcohol checks.

Great fantasy world you got there.

You sure are reading allot into my words.   My point is that a nut who kills a bunch of people should not dictate that I cannot own a gun.


#30    Michelle

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 11:55 PM

View PostRender, on 28 March 2013 - 11:45 PM, said:

There's a difference to trying to talk about/ explain the possible reasoning the body and mind goes through and justifying an act. You don't get this, as many irrational people don't. Sadly they are often the ones to pull the trigger isntead of actually thinking things through. But whatever, put on the blinds and whatever you do don't think! Someone might call you a justifier of murder if you try adn think about things! Pure evil.

If someone explains that drinking and driving is a bad idea because your decision making skills and attention are impaired by drinking alcohol . That is not the same as justifying  a drunk driver hitting another car.

You sound like an enabler, but you may not know that term.





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