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A Proof That God Exists


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#271    Ben Masada

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 09:14 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 15 April 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

Why?  Design does not require a designer, and even then we have no real basis for claiming design: accident and circumstance are enough.

How could there be design without a designer? It is like having a house without a builder of that house.


#272    Rlyeh

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 09:28 PM

View PostJor-el, on 15 April 2013 - 08:16 PM, said:

Well let me put it this way, at this time amid all the conjecture, the designer argument is the one that has the strongest basis upholding it... it is rather incredible that a book like the bible that has so consistently been criticized and taken apart over the last century and a half is actually spot on an a creation from nothing argument.
Still posting empty statements I see. As much as you delude yourself, the creation "argument" found in the Bible isn't even close (hint: the universe came from God). However if you think that is the most supported, you haven't been paying attention to the evidence.

Edited by Rlyeh, 15 April 2013 - 09:34 PM.


#273    Jor-el

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 09:42 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 15 April 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:

Still posting empty statements I see. As much as you delude yourself, the creation "argument" found in the Bible isn't even close (hint: the universe came from God). However if you think that is the most supported, you haven't been paying attention to the evidence.

Rlyeh, I thought for a moment that you had left the discussion, couldn't resist the temptation could you? :tu:

The only empty statements I've seen have actually been yours, at least all the others had the decency to discuss the subject at hand. They did not insult their oponent even when disagreeing with him, kudos to them. I really enjoyed debating this subject with them. All in all I hope you learnt something.

Edited by Jor-el, 15 April 2013 - 09:42 PM.

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#274    Rlyeh

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 09:53 PM

View PostJor-el, on 15 April 2013 - 09:42 PM, said:

Rlyeh, I thought for a moment that you had left the discussion, couldn't resist the temptation could you? :tu:
I had. I thought I'd see if you came up with any better arguments since, but no, still clutching at straws and non-existent evidence.

Edited by Rlyeh, 15 April 2013 - 09:54 PM.


#275    Jor-el

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 09:58 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 15 April 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

I had. I thought I'd see if you came up with any better arguments since, but no, still clutching at straws and non-existent evidence.

Your belief (which is all it really is) is not superior to mine. But enough of that, I won't be found guilty of bad manners to other members of this forum. Good luck and all that...

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#276    Einsteinium

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 02:56 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 15 April 2013 - 09:09 PM, said:

Be my guest because I am going to prove to you by means of Logic that the universe or anything cannot have caused itself into existence. For something to cause itself into existence it must exist first. If it already exists it does not need to cause itself into existence. Therefore the universe could not have caused itself into existence because it did not exist prior to that action. Clear enough? I think one must read more than several times to catch the piece of the puzzle. Again in the form of a question: How can something cause itself into existence if it does not exist? Needless to say, the Creator has to be outside the universe to cause the universe into existence or expand it further.

Ben

But you are missing a huge key point. Quantum physics. Quantum physics shows us that at very very small scales. Probability not cause-effect, governs the universe. I know that is hard to wrap your brain around, but you must understand that at those small scales things DO happen that have no apparent cause but do not violate laws of physics. A quark might pop into existence out of nothing, for example, and annihilate with an anti-quark that also popped into existence almost immediately. There is no known 'cause' for why the quark popped into existence where it did and when it did. It just DID. But there is a certain probability that it would pop into existence. Now that we know that at very small scales this can happen randomly, governed by probability- its not too much of a leap to suggest that the ENTIRE UNIVERSE could also have just popped into existence following the quantum probability law out of nothing for no apparent reason. No cause, just chance. Probability. Which means- that it will happen again, it could happen in the space inside your thumb right now, for example, we just don't know. It could suddenly occur anywhere at anytime. We don't yet know enough about it to be sure of anything. It does not seem like a stretch to say that the universe IS therefore it was created. But this is a belief, an assumption based on physics that you experience and know. Dive into the world of quantum physics and you will see that things are not what you think they are. That we observe events that are not governed by cause-effect, but are instead governed by probability.


#277    Frank Merton

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 03:07 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 15 April 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

How could there be design without a designer? It is like having a house without a builder of that house.
Did you ever hear of natura selection?


#278    Quaentum

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 03:34 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 15 April 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

How could there be design without a designer? It is like having a house without a builder of that house.

In what way does the Platypus support the existence of a designer?

AA LOGIC
They didn't use thousands of workers - oops forgot about the work camps
There's no evidence for ramps - You found one?...Bummer
Well we know they didn't use ancient tools to cut and shape the stones - Chisel marks?  Craps
I still say aliens built them!

#279    Jor-el

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 07:42 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 16 April 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

Did you ever hear of natura selection?

Yeah thats what I order when I have lunch at a Mac... A natura big mac. :innocent:

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#280    Ben Masada

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 07:04 PM

View PostEinsteinium, on 16 April 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

But you are missing a huge key point. Quantum physics. Quantum physics shows us that at very very small scales. Probability not cause-effect, governs the universe. I know that is hard to wrap your brain around, but you must understand that at those small scales things DO happen that have no apparent cause but do not violate laws of physics. A quark might pop into existence out of nothing, for example, and annihilate with an anti-quark that also popped into existence almost immediately. There is no known 'cause' for why the quark popped into existence where it did and when it did. It just DID. But there is a certain probability that it would pop into existence. Now that we know that at very small scales this can happen randomly, governed by probability- its not too much of a leap to suggest that the ENTIRE UNIVERSE could also have just popped into existence following the quantum probability law out of nothing for no apparent reason. No cause, just chance. Probability. Which means- that it will happen again, it could happen in the space inside your thumb right now, for example, we just don't know. It could suddenly occur anywhere at anytime. We don't yet know enough about it to be sure of anything. It does not seem like a stretch to say that the universe IS therefore it was created. But this is a belief, an assumption based on physics that you experience and know. Dive into the world of quantum physics and you will see that things are not what you think they are. That we observe events that are not governed by cause-effect, but are instead governed by probability.

It is amazing that you can believe in the probability of  this kind of fiction which you yourself do not understand the ABC's about it but find no place in your mind for the probability of a divine Creator. If I was a Christian I would say that Satan is working in you. It's a pity that you were not around to tell this story about Quantum Physics or Quantum Mechanics to Einstein who died in his refusal to believe such a nonsense. To me you are talking about magic. Houdini would have a jolly time to show you the holes of this verbal juggling.

Ben


#281    Ben Masada

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 07:15 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 16 April 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

Did you ever hear of natura selection?

Natural Selection; yes, of course! A natural process responsible for the survival of the fittest as a result of either mutation of genes or physical adaptation. But I fail to see the connection with the issue under discussion. What's the point?

Ben


#282    Ben Masada

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 07:27 PM

View PostQuaentum, on 16 April 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

In what way does the Platypus support the existence of a designer?

Oh I see! You are implying that I am a Christian that believes that the Designer has been designing every aquatic mammal since the first cause and every time a specie appears in the picture of nature. No, in that sense I tell you: He did not design me but my parents did albeit not voluntarily. Hence the Classic Philosophers would name Him the Primal Cause; the One Who started all. IOW, the One who pushed the first piece of the domino so-to-speak. Can you explain the origin of the universe? I guess not. Since the universe did not cause itself into existence, the Designer is implied whether you want or not. That's simple Logic.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 18 April 2013 - 07:29 PM.


#283    Dr. Gregory House

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 08:10 PM

I can't wait to crack open a beer and read this entire thing.

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#284    Einsteinium

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 02:26 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 18 April 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

It is amazing that you can believe in the probability of  this kind of fiction which you yourself do not understand the ABC's about it but find no place in your mind for the probability of a divine Creator. If I was a Christian I would say that Satan is working in you. It's a pity that you were not around to tell this story about Quantum Physics or Quantum Mechanics to Einstein who died in his refusal to believe such a nonsense. To me you are talking about magic. Houdini would have a jolly time to show you the holes of this verbal juggling.

Ben

I never said that I do not believe in a creator, just that because of our lack of knowledge at the moment there is not definitive way to know if there is or is not a creator. This 'magic' I speak of (quantum physics) has tons of evidence to back it up. Modern computers would not be possible without understanding it. The world changed because of our understanding of it. It is real and measurable, and able to be utilized for real technological purposes. How can you say that a creator is any more likely than beautiful mathematics and laws of nature that lead to a spontaneous creation? I admit it could be either way, but that we just do not know. You argue like you know, but faith is not knowledge, and belief is not evidence. To me each choice could be equally as probable, but those spooky magical quantum physics that you do not understand are proven. I do not think that "Satan is inside me" because I am not filled with any hatred, any malice, any anger. Just a desire to know truth, and a wonder and awe of nature and its beauty. Whether God did this or not I am perfectly happy either way.

Edited by Einsteinium, 19 April 2013 - 02:40 AM.


#285    Einsteinium

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 02:31 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 18 April 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

Oh I see! You are implying that I am a Christian that believes that the Designer has been designing every aquatic mammal since the first cause and every time a specie appears in the picture of nature. No, in that sense I tell you: He did not design me but my parents did albeit not voluntarily. Hence the Classic Philosophers would name Him the Primal Cause; the One Who started all. IOW, the One who pushed the first piece of the domino so-to-speak. Can you explain the origin of the universe? I guess not. Since the universe did not cause itself into existence, the Designer is implied whether you want or not. That's simple Logic.

Ben

The designer is not implied, all that is implied by your logic is that there was a cause. What that cause is, remains unknown. We can speculate all we want but it will remain unknown barring some fantastic breakthrough in science.

If the the arguments for the existence of a designer were argued in court, there would be plenty of reasonable doubt.
Just like arguments for M-theory, or others.

We just do not know, why are you so threatened by the truth that we just simply do not know for sure?

Edited by Einsteinium, 19 April 2013 - 02:38 AM.





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