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The Girl Scout Camp Murders

girl scout murder oklahoma

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#166    SKAB

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 08:09 PM

Hi to all,
I can see you have been posting good questions and coming up with differnet things.  And Matt, you really have been walking the area and looking for the caves? thats a mighty task and I'm sure lots of climbing and walking.  Take any pictures of the caves or anything you found?
So I'm the SKAB from the other forum... It's been really quite over there and no one seems to want to talk, so if you have any questions I will try to help if I can.
As for the maps I posted of the old Camp Scott land, with where the tents or campsites were located, I have actually been to the land with permission from the owner.  I took my handheld GPS and scouted around looking for what was left of the campsite locations, in most cases it was the bathrooms or the little concrete shower/storage buildings, not really intact, but still there since they were the only things with concrete floors.
The owner has left everything primitive and fall down except the staff house, where a renter lives, the directors cabin where another renter lives and the great house where the owners daughter has been redoing and I've heard she lives in it.  The rangers cabin burned down sometime in the 80's, the health center is used as a storage building, the cooks cabin is falling down.  And the cabins they could winterize are the concrete and brick cabins located to the left as you come through the front gate.  They include Seminole, the red barn and Cedar lodge which are still there but falling down.  As for the other campsites, as I said, the only things still there are the restrooms (Latrines) and maybe the concrete floors of the showers.  Most of the land is least during the year by hunters who have their campers and stuff out and around.  So as for it being abandon its not, the camp as a working girl scout camp has been abandoned but the land is privately owned and used.  The owner is over 80 years in age and is not very trusting about having people come out there, he seems nice but very hard of hearing over the phone.  I haven't talked to him in several years and have no idea how he feels about people coming out there at this point with his daughter living there.


#167    Taun

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:53 PM

Glad to see you here SKAB... Welcome to UM... The other site you post on is an interesting place... I just wish I had the time to delve into it more... (works kinda crazy right now...)


#168    QuiteContrary

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 01:49 AM

Hello, all! What bizarre murders and confusing reports and fascinating case! Kudos to the posters who’ve been so diligently investigating this.

I remember those tents at G.S. camp. I can still smell them! (not this camp). They had 4 beds to a tent and we never had counselors in our tents. This would have been in the 70’s. We city girls were always hyper-alert at night and heard everything, but would eventually succumb and sleep like logs in the fresh outdoors.

After reading these 12 pages in this thread some of my observations/questions are:

--Why is there no visible blood on the two sleeping bags? (from the photos)

--Where are the perps clothes from that night? (burned? with the purses? as was planned for the bedding?)

--Did Hart ever have anything to say about all this?

--Why did they hurry the girls through breakfast and then take some of the girls for a long hike in the woods and some swimming in the creek on the morning the murders were discovered? What leader (or law enforcement) would have allowed that? What counselors would have gone into the woods or creek that morning?

--How could the young girl who identified Stevens as the man who peeked in her tent, recognize at night who was behind a flashlight in her eyes? And if he saw she was awake…?

--When were the scent dogs used and to trail whom?

--This was a lengthy, violent, messy, multiple victim, mobile crime, in proximity of witnesses. Yes, he got away without being caught that night (or at all) but was it a carelessly risky and amazingly lucky chemically fed/controlled crime, or well-planned and consciously stealthy?

--It does seem he had plans for the bodies, etc., and was spooked or changed his mind (sobered up?) and left early.

--No arguing (obvious male voices) was said to have been heard that night. If you have more than one killer, and this is one hyped-up act going on, I would think you might get hostile tempers flying between the killers?

--That farmer noticed oddly miscellaneous stuff as having been stolen. He’s one alert guy.

--Could it have been an “In Cold Blood” type case and Hart had talked about the camp to someone else in prison who had an interest in raping young girls?

--Why could a car have not been used to get away and planned to be used to move the bodies, etc?

--Hart (or anyone) easily could have scouted out and even stayed at the camp in the less active “off” season.

--The thefts in the counselors tents happening that night by the murderer(s) is extremely odd and hard to believe. Yet they’d show hubris like the murders, possibly chemically induced?

--I can also see the thefts being the  “inside” work of campers or counselors or workers… 100+ people you’re going to see that.

--The item(s) used to kill the two girls was never identified?

--The murders themselves seem rich in providing a profile of the murderer(s). So much the murderer(s) did at the scene and the choice of victims and where …has anyone since tried to profile the killer(s)? Maybe to input whether one or more killers were involved.

--The internet is great, but it can sure make a mess of things when researching too.

Edited by QuiteContrary, 07 November 2012 - 01:52 AM.


#169    Taun

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 01:02 PM

Hi QC... welcome to the thread...

You raised some very good questions... Unfortunately, questions are what we have most of in this crazy case...

I'll take a stab at responding to a few of them...

- Scent dogs... The dogs apparently weren't on the scene very long... It took a couple days to get them in from Pennsylvania and of the three which were brought in, within hours 2 were dead... One to heat stroke - and another to being run over by a truck (in the woods?)... Also... If the perp(s) walked through the creek as Matt said he did, it's very likely there was no scent for the dogs to continue following...

- One of my uncles was a farmer, and let me tell you he could recall where every little nut, screw and bolt was in his workshop/barn... They are very observant people... Of course he couldn't recall the color of his living room wall - but oh well...

- I have no idea what happened to the clothing that the perp(s) were wearing... No bloody clothing was found... Perhaps the clothes are at the bottom of the nearby lake Hudson... Or were burned... I've found no mention of the clothing in any of the things I've read about this case... Not even a mention of it's absence as a clue...

- I can only guess why there was no visible blood on the sleeping bags... Perhaps the blood was on the inside... The girls would have been inside them when attacked - especially if the attack came after 3 AM...

- Hart was very closed lipped... Apparently he was somewhat of a 'non-talker' even normally... As soon as he was arrested he 'clammed up' until he had a lawyer - though he did maintain his innocence...

- Lately I've been toying with the idea that perhaps Hart acted as the 'scout' for this crime... Letting one (or two) others actually commit the crime while he did the set up work... I'm not convinced of this idea, but it was a thought...  Though how someone would even broach the subject to other people is beyond my ability to understand...


edit to add: When I stated that matt said he had walked through the creek, I didn't mean that he said the perp did - just that he - Matt - had...

- Also, I think the counselors took the girls on hikes to get them away from the general scene with all the police - and to try and keep them calm and occupied until buses could arrive to take them home... I doubt that they hiked anywhere near the crime scene... However many of the girls were interviewed by the police that morning, which is where some of the odd sightings and noises were first reported....

Edited by Taun, 07 November 2012 - 01:06 PM.


#170    Chooky88

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 01:26 PM

How sad. The youngest was my age and they should all be parents now. :-(


#171    MATTHEWAK47

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 02:51 PM

Today we would call this kind of analysis of the evidence at hand, criminal profiling.  Dr. Phillips spent 25 years of his professional life treating criminals and the criminally insane.  He was a member of a private organization called the Barkouras Foundation, and over time Oklahoma's criminal courts came to rely on the "profiles" this foundation producedG






1.  the perpatrator suffers from an overwhelming infeiority complex.  He hates himself and he hates the world.  He fears rejection; especially rejection by women.  He is a very depressed and angry person.  The killer hates being alive and murdering is his way of taking revenge on a world that he believes has mistreated him.

2.  He is a sexual sadist and he will strike again if he is not caught. His sadism is expressed in his anger at life.  Sex symbolizes something to him but something very different than what it means to people in normal society.  Because the killer hates happiness, innocence and decency, the killer uses sex to degrade these things and himself.  Usually sex is "life giving" but in his case sex is "life taking".

3.  Despite modern psychiatric medicine and therapy, his kind of mental illness can not be cured.  He does not have a chronic psychosis.

4.  While he is not legally insane, he survives on such a savage, animal level that all efforts to rehabilitate him would be in vain.

5.  He was methodical and calculating in the carrying out of this crime.  Dr. Phillips believes that he may have come only to kill one girl but then passion took over and he kept returning to the tent for another and yet another victim.  He could not leave the bodies alone.

6.  He became completely caught up in his deed.  He carried the girls beyond the unit area and continued to violate them.

7.  At that moment, right outside of the Kiowa Unit, the perpatrator was a madman, an animal, a monster.

8.  At some point though, something abruptly happened which brought him "back" and/or alarmed him.

9.  Suddenly the killer, like an animal covering his tracks, begins to try and cover his tracks.  He stuffs two of the small girls deep into their sleeping bags.  He takes sleeping bags, towels, whatever he can find and begins trying to wipe up the blood.  This is a man with complete disorder in his life trying to create order.

10.  Some kind of severe trauma occurred in this man's life to make him feel extremely inferior and to build up such a passionate hatred in him.



Edited by MATTHEWAK47, 07 November 2012 - 03:02 PM.


#172    MATTHEWAK47

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 02:53 PM

Events Leading Up To The Crime
Strange events were taking place around Camp Scott leading up to the murders.An effigy in the form of a man was found hanging from a tree by its neck, with its genitals showing, and personal items were disappearing from tents. The most interesting event was the discovery of a note in April which read "we are on a mission to kill 3 girls in tent 1". The note was considered a prank and never given to police.

The Crime
A storm hit the area around 6PM, causing heavy rain. Because of the weather, the campers were sent back to their tents.At approximately 1:30AM, moaning was heard near camp Kiowa. Carla, a counselor at the camp, checked out the noise and described it as a low guttural moaning. It would stop whenever the beam of her flashlight came near.

Carla was standing at the intersection of the trail, 150 yards from Tent 8 and a dirt road leading to the main camp.At approximately 2AM, the tent flap of #7 was opened. Three of the girls inside were sleeping. The fourth girl stated that she noticed a beam of light moving about the interior from outside, with the silhouette of a large figure behind it. The figure moved off toward Tent 8. Moaning sounds were heard throughout the night, not just by those in the Kiowa section but in four other units of the camp.At approximately 3AM, a girl in the Cherokee section across the woods heard a scream come from the direction of Kiowa, located about two city blocks away. A girl in Quapaw also heard a scream. The scream seemed to be cries of "momma! momma!"The girl thought it may have been the voice of Lori Farmer.

At approximately 6AM, Carla found sleeping bags under a tree near the intersection in a pile.


The Bodies
Doris Milner was found nude from the waist down with her pyjama top pulled up underneath her arms. Her hands had been tied behind her back with duct tape and she had been beaten around the face.Around her neck a cord and an elastic bandage were visible. A round cylinder shaped object about four inches long made of terrycloth was attached to the cord. The elastic bandage had been used as a blindfold; the terrycloth object as a gag.Michele Heather Guse and Lori Farmer were found inside their sleeping bags. Both bodies had been bound into a tight, compact, fetal-like position.

Evidence
Guse's and Farmer's sleeping bags contained bloody bed sheets that had been used by the killer to wipe down the blood found on the wood floor of the tent. Also found was a roll of black duct tape and a flashlight the murderer had discarded.

Jack Shroff was the owner of a farm 1 miles west of Camp Scott whose house had been broken into. Some of the items taken from his home were a sash cord, a roll of duct tape, 3 bottles of beer and 3 identical crow bars. The beer bottles were later found empty on the camp grounds.

Outside Shroff's door a jungle boot style print was found. It matched other boot prints found near the crime scene.

Another print had been found on the blood soaked floor of Tent 8.
*Boot Print Size 10
*Shoe Print (possible tennis shoe) size 7


Cause of Death
Guse and Farmer were killed inside the tent. They were struck by a heavy blunt object in the back of their heads while they slept.Milner may have been led out of the tent, raped, and then killed. When found, her face had been beaten with such force that the object responsible had left behind its shape. She had died on the trail. Her cause of death was strangulation, not blunt force trauma.At autopsy it was revealed that two different types of knots had reportedly been used; head wounds on two of the victims indicated two different blunt instruments.

Analysis
Physical evidence left behind at the crime scene and evidence recovered during autopsy indicates that two offenders were involved in the crime.The nature of the crime scene was a mixed scene, all of the equipment necessary to commit the crime was brought along, yet no steps were taken to conceal the crime after it was committed. This indicates that two offenders were involved. The offenders would have left the area immediately after the crime.This crime is one that would have been planned months, possibly years in advance. The killers were probably good friends, given the nature of the crimes.

Because of the remoteness of the crime scene, the offenders knew the area well; they were probably either avid hunters or lived in the area.

Only one of the girls was the intended target.The other two girls were most likely murdered because they could identify the offenders.

one or both of the offenders may have had a history of sexual assault, possibly involving children.

This may not have been the first murder for one of both of the offenders. The level of violence indicates that these offenders were not new to murder and had been involved in some type of violent crime previous to this one.

However, the crime itself was sloppy and excessively violent so this may have been the offenders' first murder.The girls could have been led out of the tent, or tied up and dragged out of the tent, and killed in another location that would have been more difficult to find, therefore concealing their identity. Instead, the victims were murdered inside of the tent, leaving behind shoe prints and blood.

The victims were all young girls that were surprised in their tent late at night while probably sleeping. They were badly beaten and raped.

This was the first step in the escalation of violence, leading to murder.


Edited by MATTHEWAK47, 07 November 2012 - 03:01 PM.


#173    MATTHEWAK47

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 02:57 PM

Just something to think on..

Edited by MATTHEWAK47, 07 November 2012 - 03:53 PM.


#174    Taun

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 03:19 PM

Post #171 was interesting Matt... I hadn't considered that perhaps the perp committed the first murder - left, then returned to committ another...

I don't think that is what happened... but I had not considered it...
If so, he would not have been able to have gone very far before returning - due to time constraints... he would most likely have left multiple tracks and prints to be discovered later, the chance of discovery would have gone up greatly with each leg of his trip...The other girls in the tent could have awakened and sounded an alarm very easily... AS I said - I don't think that is what happened but still... It's not beyond the realm of being possible...


#175    QuiteContrary

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 08:11 PM

View PostTaun, on 07 November 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

- Also, I think the counselors took the girls on hikes to get them away from the general scene with all the police - and to try and keep them calm and occupied until buses could arrive to take them home... I doubt that they hiked anywhere near the crime scene... However many of the girls were interviewed by the police that morning, which is where some of the odd sightings and noises were first reported....

Thanks, Taun.

I still don't see what leader would send the girls into the surrounding woods with a crazed killer on the loose. It makes absolutely no sense. They should have been locked in a hall with police protection. If I got there while my daughter was out in the woods somewhere, I'd have been furious. According to the cops the killer was trekking about the woods, maybe more than one killer. What counselor would be brave enough to head this up?
As a leader,  I would think of the girls as my girls and be very protective of them. When something like this happens you hold them closer, you do not let them go out of your sight.

So, did they really send the kids off into the creek and woods? I have to wonder.

I would still think blood would easily seep through the old cloth (child) sleeping bags. And head trauma would produce a lot of blood.

I assume this would be a messy crime that would leave blood all over the killer, while he taped up the beaten girls. And then he carried their sleeping bags. Or did he tape them up first, shove them into the bags and then bludgeon them? That would be noisy and suggest more than one killer to me. And you'd still have seeping blood through the bag and onto the weapon? Which could assume two weapons then were used. A clean one on each girl???

I'm not arguing with you Taun, but the case itself.

I too have thought about Hart as possibly stealing that night while someone else did the killings. But Hart certainly would have given the other perp up wouldn't he? And why leave getting caught in the hands of a partner like Hart? I wish a modern profiler had a published opinion on this case.

I will read your posts Matthew, later today.

Edited by QuiteContrary, 07 November 2012 - 08:14 PM.


#176    Taun

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 08:28 PM

QC...  To be honest the counselors probably didn't really know what to do with the girls - just to get them out of the way to avoid them seeing the crime scene...  Think how that would have freaked out the kids and the parents!!!

- With all the police and all at the scene they most likely felt there was little chance that the perps would still be nearby... I don't know which direction or down what trails they took the girls - or for how long... but I'm sure the kids knew something was wrong - kids are quick to pick up things like that...

- If Hart knew the others (if Hart was involved and if there were others) I don't think he would have given them up... If it was one or more of the others named in earlier posts - he knew them and apparently was friends with them... He knew he was going back to jail for life anyway - so why not keep quiet about others?...

- The oddities with this case are what are driving me (and probably regi as well) near bonkers trying to sort it out...  I find myself less and less concerned with who did it, and more concerned with just what did happen, when and how... Unfortunately most readily available info is on the trial, and not so much on the actual crime...

Edited by Taun, 07 November 2012 - 08:30 PM.


#177    QuiteContrary

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 01:14 AM

View PostTaun, on 04 October 2012 - 05:59 PM, said:

The Suspect
Gene Leroy Hart was a Cherokee Indian and high school football hero from Locust Grove. In June of 1966 Hart kidnapped two women outside a Tulsa nightclub and left them to die. They were able to escape and notified police.
Hart was sentenced in October 1966 and paroled in March 1969, was arrested again after being caught burglarizing homes. Hart was able to escape custody in 1973.
He was tried for the camp Scott murders and found not guilty on March 30, 1979, however he was sent back to prison to sever out his 308-year sentence for his previous crimes.
Heart later died in prison.

bolding mine,
Why was he paroled in 1969 after only 3 years for kidnapping the women? And if he had been paroled what did he have to serve 308-year sentence for?


re: Matthew's profiler page-
The killer never did this again in that area. I would think someone (or two) the police never considered, came in by vehicle, and planned to leave by vehicle with all the bodies and evidence.  

Taking his bloody shoes and clothes and bloodthirst with him, who knows where.

The police assumed the killers came in and left via some long forest trek and thus the killer had to know the area well, such as Hart.

But maybe it was far easier than that and only involved minimal knowledge of the area-- road access, locating a secluded cabin, knowledge of the location of the GS camp and what it was.

And Hart or someone else committed all the thefts, unrelated to the killer/killings.

Edited by QuiteContrary, 08 November 2012 - 01:26 AM.


#178    Taun

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 11:42 AM

View PostQuiteContrary, on 08 November 2012 - 01:14 AM, said:

bolding mine,
Why was he paroled in 1969 after only 3 years for kidnapping the women? And if he had been paroled what did he have to serve 308-year sentence for?


re: Matthew's profiler page-
The killer never did this again in that area. I would think someone (or two) the police never considered, came in by vehicle, and planned to leave by vehicle with all the bodies and evidence.  

Taking his bloody shoes and clothes and bloodthirst with him, who knows where.

The police assumed the killers came in and left via some long forest trek and thus the killer had to know the area well, such as Hart.

But maybe it was far easier than that and only involved minimal knowledge of the area-- road access, locating a secluded cabin, knowledge of the location of the GS camp and what it was.

And Hart or someone else committed all the thefts, unrelated to the killer/killings.

As to Hart's parole... apparently while on parole he committed a robbery and so violated the parole - then had to serve the remaining time on his sentance... Not sure why he got parole after only 3 years but - hey, that's 'criminal justice' for you...

Your comments about the killer(s) coming by in a car then moving on sounds very plausible... although I'm not sure how they would have found the GS camp - it's not exactly on a major road - and there were few signs... Still, it is a real possibility....


#179    regi

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 08:17 PM

Welcome, SKAB. Hello!

The yuku site has been so helpful...sooo informative, but you know, I regret not learning a long time ago to just use the danged search bar when researching anything specific!

One question right off the bat that I'd have for YOU is was it ever learned where the heck the dog was on the night of the murders? (You know, you and I are the only ones- that I know- of who've ever addressed that issue!)

Another question, what's the terrain like throughout the camp?
I imagine is that it's relatively flat land so that if not for woods (and/or buildings) then visibility would be good between units.


#180    Taun

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 08:30 PM

Regi...  Just looking at Google Earth of the site... it looks like a series of low ridges running (roughly) NE to SW basically following the course of the nearby creek... Without walking the site or looking at a good contour map of the area I would guess that it is not horribly rough ground, but not flat and smooth either...

Actually, it looks more like a gradual upslope from West to East, then a sharper drop to the creek just east of the buildings in the southern part of the camp and the northern part not as sharp a drop...

Edited by Taun, 08 November 2012 - 08:31 PM.





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