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The Atheist Moral Argument


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#16    Arbenol

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 11:50 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 27 March 2013 - 11:39 PM, said:

Mnnn! But what if, to take an example, you do not enjoy being caned on the bottom, but someone else does. Should you follow your desire not to be caned  (or to cane someone and inflict pain), or the other person's desire to be caned, because for them, pain is pleasure?. (Watching a movie on the life of carl jung and his mistress, who apparently had such a prediliction for sexual gratification, prompted me to use this example.) She used to be beaten by her father and found it arousing. THe psychologicla pressure of dealing with such an "unnatural" gratification came out in behaviours which led her parents to jung for treatment He eventually discovered the cause and released her from her self loathing and she became a psycho therapits therslef. She still, however, sought sexual gratification from being "spanked," and jung  involved himslef in this as part of a long time sexual relationship with her.

Is it healthier to "cure" or alter such a desire as unhealthy, or to accept its nature/causations and submit to it? (One of the disagreements between jung and freud lay in the application of psychotherapy beyond understanding the causes of people's behaviours)

Every rule has exceptions. It's what makes the human moral landscape so complex and fascinating. I think the concept of "the golden rule" is the most basic, and easiest to understand, of moral principles (it's one of the ways we try to teach our children).

In your example, it depends how you frame who's doing what and to whom. Is it immoral to inflict pain even if the recipient wants it? Is it immoral to deprive someone of the right to behave in this way if it harms no one else, even if it might be viewed as maladaptive.

As another example, I don't particularly liked being picked up and dumped in a swimming pool. My kids, on the other hand, love it. To use the moral principle of the 'golden rule' I might be seen as doing something I wouldn't like done to me. Or I could be seen as facilitating the enjoyment of others - something that I appreciate when done for me.

Edited by Arbenol68, 27 March 2013 - 11:51 PM.


#17    Setton

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 11:57 PM

View PostHavocWing, on 27 March 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

How loving of you.

Rare for me to agree with you but you've the right of it here.

'Good' is not the same as 'nice'.
'No, murder is running your broadsword through someone because he worships a different God to you... Or is that evangelism? I get confused.'
When they discover the centre of the universe, a lot of people are going to be disappointed - They are not it.
I don't object to the concept of a deity but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.

#18    notforgotten

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 01:05 AM

View PostSetton, on 27 March 2013 - 11:57 PM, said:

Rare for me to agree with you but you've the right of it here.
I'm sorry if I've offended anyone, but sometimes you just have to tell it like it is and not beat around the bush.


#19    ambelamba

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 01:17 AM

View PostHavocWing, on 27 March 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

How loving of you.

He actually believes that 1/3 of heavenly denizens actually revolted against the God of Universe. That alone deserves a South Park treatment.


#20    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 01:23 AM

View PostRon Jeremy, on 28 March 2013 - 01:17 AM, said:

He actually believes that 1/3 of heavenly denizens actually revolted against the God of Universe. That alone deserves a South Park treatment.

It is actually kind of ironic, Christianity accounts for exactly 1/3 of the human population.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious
conviction." - Blaise Pascal

#21    ambelamba

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 01:26 AM

View PostHavocWing, on 28 March 2013 - 01:23 AM, said:

It is actually kind of ironic, Christianity accounts for exactly 1/3 of the human population.

Look man. If a person can believe Book of Mormon and the scientology creation myth, he/she can believe anything. That's what terrifies me about human nature.


#22    ambelamba

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 01:27 AM

View PostArbenol68, on 27 March 2013 - 09:46 PM, said:

Indeed it is. But it's arguable that this fact alone is one of religion's most useful features.

Fearing the world is good enough to motivate you to be moral. Or, since we are social creatures we can have innate morality to a certain degree, religious or not.


#23    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 01:34 AM

View PostAquilaChrysaetos, on 27 March 2013 - 08:23 PM, said:

Why do many Athesists claim Religion to be evil and poison everything when they according to their own doctrine claim that morality itself is relative and therefore doesn't exist?

I don't see how Atheists can use morality to refute Religion since they can not give an absolute definition of Good and Evil. And even if they could, it would simply be their opinion as opposed to other's opinion on the matter. It would have no substance since morality itself would not exist.

I don't think morality can be used to 'refute' religion, and as Arbenol already noted you are mistaken that relative morality means no morality.  I do think there are a few arguments to be made against religions concerning morality depending on which tenets are considered to be true.  I think it's valid to point out that if one believes that God is all-good and all-loving and simultaneously believes that the unsaved are doomed to eternal torment, there appears to be a contradiction there concerning the supposed 'morality' or qualities God is supposed to have.  I think God ordering genocide is also problematic for obvious reasons. Agreed, things like this do not refute religion, which is to be expected since religion is a lot more than just claims concerning morality, but I don't think they help the theists' case depending on what they believe.

Quote

I'm not saying that Atheists cannot be moral, I'm saying that this argument against Religion is self-contradictory, and that Atheists in my opinion shouldn't use morality in their argument against religion, but should use scientific / historical facts instead. Then they would have a more valid and reasonable truth claim versus an opinion.

Just stick to the facts people, don't bring morality into Theism / Atheism debates.

Keep in mind that if both sides were to truly just stick to facts (as opposed to beliefs), especially scientific ones, then the Theist presentation of their case would be a very short one.

"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into"
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" - C. Hitchens
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" - Richard Feynman

#24    notforgotten

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 02:03 AM

View PostRon Jeremy, on 28 March 2013 - 01:17 AM, said:

He actually believes that 1/3 of heavenly denizens actually revolted against the God of Universe. That alone deserves a South Park treatment.
I've seen an angel with wings and two demons with one horn and four nubs on their heads. I read your personal story Ron. It would be wise of you to return. I've seen many spirits without God in the afterlife. They truly are shackled to the evil one. They are lost souls. Their worm (evil) shall not die. They are masters at the art of deception. They lose their memories, family and friends. Being the devils that they are, they would had been better off had they not been born. They appear to thirst for all that only a most loving creator can give them.

Edited by notforgotten, 28 March 2013 - 02:03 AM.


#25    ambelamba

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 02:37 AM

View Postnotforgotten, on 28 March 2013 - 02:03 AM, said:

I've seen an angel with wings and two demons with one horn and four nubs on their heads. I read your personal story Ron. It would be wise of you to return. I've seen many spirits without God in the afterlife. They truly are shackled to the evil one. They are lost souls. Their worm (evil) shall not die. They are masters at the art of deception. They lose their memories, family and friends. Being the devils that they are, they would had been better off had they not been born. They appear to thirst for all that only a most loving creator can give them.

:cry: :unsure2: :no:


#26    notforgotten

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 02:47 AM

View PostRon Jeremy, on 28 March 2013 - 02:37 AM, said:

:cry: :unsure2: :no:
I'm a Christian Ron. Do you really believe that I would lie about these things?


#27    scowl

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 02:55 AM

I can't remember anyone refuting all religions by morality but the way Old Testament God treated humanity should be deplorable to any moral person.


#28    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 03:13 AM

View Postscowl, on 28 March 2013 - 02:55 AM, said:

I can't remember anyone refuting all religions by morality but the way Old Testament God treated humanity should be deplorable to any moral person.

Exactly.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious
conviction." - Blaise Pascal

#29    MysticStrummer

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 03:24 AM

View PostAquilaChrysaetos, on 27 March 2013 - 08:23 PM, said:

My question here is not a debate for or against the existance of a Moral Law. My question is more focused on why Atheists use morality as a means to refute religion.

I don't know any atheists who try to refute religion at all. They don't have a problem with religion, they have a problem with the horrible things that are done in the name of religion. It's tough to refute things that hinge on faith, and so can't be proven or disproven.

Ummon asked : "The world is such a wide world, why do you answer a bell and don ceremonial robes?" ~ Zen Flesh Zen Bones

#30    ambelamba

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 04:01 AM

View Postnotforgotten, on 28 March 2013 - 02:47 AM, said:

I'm a Christian Ron. Do you really believe that I would lie about these things?

No, you didn't lie. It's something worse. Sorry for your conditions.





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