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The Practical meaning of Socialism


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#16    Corp

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:36 PM

View Postsynchronomy, on 27 November 2012 - 12:08 AM, said:

I'm tired of hearing Canada labelled as a socialist state by some of the news media in the USA...and recently in Canada too.
They label us as such simply because we have a universal health care system in place...as least that's how it seems.
Our taxes pay for healthcare.  Big deal.
In Canada and the USA...
Taxes also pay for our military, emergency services such as fire, police, and ambulance.
They pay for road and highway maintenance and construction, garbage collection and disposal.
...and a raft load of other things.  Some wasteful, some useful.
That's the way it is.

Well in terms of geo-political terms we are somewhat aligned as a socialist democracy. Just like all of Europe and Oceania. Of course where the rub comes from is people like Raven who just don't understand what socialism means in a Western political context. They hear socialism and they automatically think Soviet Union and become terrified. Now of course the socialism that they're so scared of is practiced in countries that are every year ranked as the best places in the world to live in. That people living in those countries love their nations and are just as free as Americans. But sadly little things like facts and reality don't make a dent in their worldview. After all they actually think Obama is a socialist. Best you can do is shake your head and laugh.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse...A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

#17    Jeremiah65

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:51 PM

Nothing is forever...

"Republics decline into democracies and democracies degenerate into despotism." (Aristotle)

"Dictatorship naturally arises out of democracy, and the most aggravated form of tyranny and slavery out of the most extreme liberty." (Plato)

"Liberty means responsibility.  That is why most men dread it."  George Bernard Shaw
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."  Thomas Jefferson

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#18    synchronomy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:52 PM

View PostOverSword, on 27 November 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

Socialism is the direction that those in charge desire us to go, as long as it only applies to the poorest 99%.  That's why you in Canada are hearing you are socialists on your own broadcasts.  The very young take anything the talking picture box tells them as the unconditional truth.  The talking picture box is labeling you as socialists because the young people will grow up believing it making the transition easier as they apply it.  Very soon you will see many pro socialists progams being touted via government backed funding on American television too.  Don't fight it, just go down to the capital , ask for your hammer and sickle and start working for the benefit of those who are too lazy and too stupid to do anything for themselves.  And don't forget to smile and sy please and thank you.  Also, as you get older don't be a burden on the healthcare system that's there for the majority of poeple and kill yourself if you start to to feel like you can work no longer.  It's the new American way! :clap:
Very true.
For the average worker in our province of Canada, Ontario...
If you add up the Federal and Provincial income tax, the sales tax of 13% (which you are paying for out of your already taxed income), municipal property tax, and various huge point of purchases taxes such as gasoline, environmental, tire, and new car purchases...
More than 50 cents of each dollar earned goes towards tax.
*searches for hammer and sickle*

At the heart of science is an essential balance between two seemingly contradictory attitudes--an openness to new ideas, no matter how bizarre or counterintuitive they may be, and the most ruthless skeptical scrutiny of all ideas, old and new.
This is how deep truths are winnowed from deep nonsense. -- Carl Sagan

#19    White Unicorn

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:05 AM

View Postsynchronomy, on 27 November 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

Very true.
For the average worker in our province of Canada, Ontario...
If you add up the Federal and Provincial income tax, the sales tax of 13% (which you are paying for out of your already taxed income), municipal property tax, and various huge point of purchases taxes such as gasoline, environmental, tire, and new car purchases...
More than 50 cents of each dollar earned goes towards tax.
*searches for hammer and sickle*

I roller coastered in my life from poor, to very well to do, to pretty poor after medical bills and deaths in the family, spouse job loss  and I now make 1/3 less and am the sole provider after a company merger. My net is 57% that is before state sales tax real estate, piggy back city taxes or utilities gasoline or food , car & property insurance etc.  You can't get help with heating etc because you still gross too much even though net is way below the poverty level.  Your family can get preventative care now without deductible but if you have preexisting,  or need a treatment it's considered diagnostic and insurance pays  50-60% after you pay $5000 deductible. Next year will be better with a different insurance since it's a  high deductible of  only 2,500 per person and covers 100% remainder if its an approved treatment. I'm so glad they got rid of the insurance cap.  Wish it would have came sooner before I wrote out over a million dollars in checks to pay bills for my family that insurance wouldn't cover and spouse with no full time job for 8 years!

But  if you don't work or was born into poverty,  you get housing, food allowance nd free medical care and a monthly check. The working boomers can't collect their private pensions or social security until 65-67 or until they have been totally disabled for a year and the Republicans want to cut those benefits and unemployment instead of cutting the loopholes in tax laws!   System is all messed up, I've seen it from all sides. It can be fixed in many ways to be good for ALL the people but nothing gets done because of politics and the perpetual election campaigns of power plays.

After the GW Bush era, I wish I was a Canadian instead, and I really like Ontario!


#20    MiskatonicGrad

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:40 AM

View Postkeithisco, on 27 November 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

Just one point, because the OP has lost all sense of proportion...

Who drove through the Patriot Act - the very same act that deprives US Citizens of the right to demand Habeaus Corpus???? (Clue: GWB - Dubya and you all just rolled over in ecstacy to accept it  :w00t:  - idiots)

You now have fewer "rights" than ANY EU Nation..."There's one born every minute"

And right there folks is the problem. Whenever you try to point out the woes of socialism you are labeled a democrat-hating dog kicker. Now why is that? Maybe because that's the party leading us FORWARD down this path. Now yes the last president did much more than just drive through the Patriot Act to take away our rights but our country has been heading down this hill for many years. At this point I don't see much difference between either party when it comes to socialist agenda.

In other words people we have lost the country to the ruling elite and we have become what the founding fathers predicted we would. Damn they were smart. I just wish more people would have listened to them.

"Were we directed from Washington when to sow, and when to reap, we should soon want bread" --Thomas Jefferson(1821)

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#21    White Unicorn

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 02:09 AM

View PostMiskatonicGrad, on 28 November 2012 - 01:40 AM, said:

In other words people we have lost the country to the ruling elite and we have become what the founding fathers predicted we would. Damn they were smart. I just wish more people would have listened to them.

So true,... all forms of government go through cycles when you look at history.  The problem seems to be when the people see a light at the end of the tunnel they don't realize it may really be a train!  It's been happening too long and the real question is how do we get the system back on the right track and stay there!

Founding fathers called it the grand experiment, its up to us to do what we can do to help bring about a solution to the failing to honor the freedom and justice for all dream.


#22    RavenHawk

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:09 PM

View Postsynchronomy, on 27 November 2012 - 12:08 AM, said:

I'm tired of hearing Canada labelled as a socialist state by some of the news media in the USA...and recently in Canada too.
It’s not meant as an insult.  For what it’s worth, the US is but a heartbeat away from being Socialist itself.  But why are you tired of hearing it when places like France and Italy are proud of it?  Maybe the truth is uncomfortable?

Quote

They label us as such simply because we have a universal health care system in place...as least that's how it seems.
That’s not exactly true.  Universal Healthcare is but the latest and ultimate insult.  UH forces the people to be dependent on the government.  It opens the door for government to infringe on the most basic of human Rights.  It can dictate that you do something with your own body or it can withhold something from you.  That is completely counter to what the American Constitution was established for.  That is enslavement.  Since you are Canadian, you are not bound to any such covenant.

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Our taxes pay for healthcare.  Big deal.
If you try looking beyond the bread and circuses, it is a big deal.  The government should not be in the Entitlement business for the very reasons I had stated.  It is not the place of the government to oversee the lives of the people.  And when it gets into that business, it enslaves them.

Quote

In Canada and the USA...
Taxes also pay for our military, emergency services such as fire, police, and ambulance.
They pay for road and highway maintenance and construction, garbage collection and disposal.
...and a raft load of other things.  Some wasteful, some useful.
That's the way it is.
This is one of the most dangerous assumptions people make.  Trying to combine things like healthcare with infrastructure and defense.  These are not the same class of things.  Regulating humans is robbing them of their life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  Again, you are not bound by that but all humans have inalienable Rights, of which only the US Constitution guarantees no government infringement of (but even that is endanger of going by the way side).  The Patriot Act is a far less dangerous to that than Obamacare.  The US government is charged with (as should all governments) “Providing for the Common Defense” and “Promoting the General Welfare”.  General Welfare does not mean Entitlements, does not mean welfare, does not mean healthcare.  It means building and maintaining infrastructure (that’s roads, public works and emergency and other services that protect the infrastructure) so that the people can once again practice life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness by using these things to increase their wealth through commerce.  And from their wealth can take care of their own health needs.

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#23    RavenHawk

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:13 PM

View Postspartan max2, on 27 November 2012 - 12:13 AM, said:

i just noticed i was mentioned in this thread. I feel important :tsu: lol
I had to recognize a good thought … :yes:

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#24    RavenHawk

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:20 PM

View PostWhite Unicorn, on 27 November 2012 - 12:56 AM, said:

Here if your lucky enough to have a job you pay outrageous insurance premiums that don't cover things anyway then if you have a big bill they pay no more and you have a preexisting and can't get any care at all...unless you don't work and go on medicaid after selling everything you own.  
Let me tell you how lucky we are now under Obamacare.  We try to eat and live a healthy lifestyle, take preventative and maintenance steps.  But Western, clinical medicine is too ignorant to understand that alternative and Eastern medicine is the other half of “whole health” and for the most part are not considered “preventative medicine” in Obamacare.  Yet many doctors are beginning to understand the importance of these other forms.  Obamacare has no comprehension of these because they are not clinically quantitative.  Auto Immune diseases are on the increase and Obamacare is incapable of dealing with it.  You throw in things like GMOs and obesity and it doesn’t take much to understand the Perfect Storm we are heading into.  

I would go see my doctor every 6mons to check my cholesterol etc., which was a $30 co-pay and $50 for lab work.  Now, what they do call preventative care under obamacare like annual physicals, etc are 100% covered however, lab work is now $1000.  I can’t afford that.  And what good is going to the doctor without lab work for him to examine?  What kind of preventative medicine is that?  Why go at all and waste both our times?

Yes, my premium is down a little but my deductible has gone up 400% and my out of pocket limit has skyrocketed from $2,500 to $12,000 for me and my wife.  Under the old insurance she was able to get brand drugs cheaper because there was no generic equivalent.  Now she can’t.  And the other drugs she takes are not approved by the FDA and so are not covered.  By the time we are eligible for any benefits, it’ll be Nov or Dec of the year and then only at 65%.  That is rationing!  Now tell me how great that is for me?!

Quote

Besides job loss medical bills are the main reason for bad credit.  
We won’t have to get seriously sick before being endanger of losing our home.  Is that what Obama wants?  Instead of creating a building boom of new homes, just take my home and give it to a Taker?

Quote

I was thrilled when Obama tried to do something about it but even now the big insurances are figuring in loop holes not to pay in tricky ways.  
Yeah, you must have had that tingle up your leg.  This is where Socialism does not understand the free market.  The purpose of insurance companies is to make money, not provide healthcare.  One should be harnessing the “Invisible Hand” instead of regulating it.  If the consumer was more educated and competition was open across state lines then the market would provide better care.  But Socialists don’t understand that.  But it’s also not just the insurance companies.  All businesses are looking for ways of not paying which includes dropping their workforce to under 50 and/or reducing worker’s hours to under 30 hours.  The new norm will be that everyone will have at least two part time jobs and no healthcare.  Then there will be rationing that will occur from Obamacare, like it has already done with my wife’s care.

Quote

That's when it starts to make sense that some things should not be privatized such as insurance.  
Obamacare is the proof that everything should be privatized and get government out of things entirely!

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#25    RavenHawk

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:21 PM

View Postninjadude, on 27 November 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

It's been pointed out ad naseum, you don't get to make up your own terms. :no:
Actually I do get to make up my own terms.  I define it very clearly.  You are just too dense to understand how the definition I go by is well within the parameters of the usage of the word.  You are unwilling and incapable of understanding.  That’s fine by me because that is, in part, what I’m establishing here.

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#26    RavenHawk

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:23 PM

View PostCradle of Fish, on 27 November 2012 - 04:28 AM, said:

You're obviously quite young, RavenHawk
You are obviously quite ignorant.  If you don’t like that response and have nothing better to say, then don’t say anything.

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#27    RavenHawk

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:25 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 27 November 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

It seems you have a rather romantic and naive view of the efficacy of the ballot box.  "Voting them out" is pretty much a pipe dream.
No, not naďve.  Perhaps a bit romantic but it’s more like a preferred goal.  And with goals, what steps do you need to take to get there?  Obama has been following the steps of Alinski to get us here.  What steps do we need to get out of this mess?  Repeating over and over that “voting them out” is a pipe dream (and I do tend to agree – perhaps that makes me more of a pragmatist?), then you can’t believe that it is possible. But it must be possible. It has to be possible.  Our Founding Fathers gave us two ways to make change.  If we give up on the Ballot, then all that remains is the Gun.  Are the warnings of John Brown and the lament of Abraham Lincoln revisiting us?

Quote

The system is rigged in the first place, by the rotation of terms of congresscritters, but even more importantly is that We The Sheeple cannot agree on which congresscritters is good, and which is bad.
That’s the other half of my “naivety”.  “Voting them out” is only part of it.  You also need to wake up the sheeple and make them aware.  Of course, that is easier said than done, but that is the goal.  If you do that then it doesn’t matter on the rotation of terms.  As with the free market, the consumer drives it.  So with an educated electorate, they will drive better representatives.  It’s time for the armature voter to become a professional in the matter of politics as the Founding Fathers had hoped for.  We do that and Socialism cannot taint the Great Experiment.  It is similar to Robert Heinlein’s concept in the difference of “Citizen” and “Civilian”.  It becomes the responsibility of the Citizen for the health of the body politic, the Civilian does not.  Now in our reality, it may not be feasible for every Citizen to be in the military to achieve this but in a healthy body politic, the divisiveness in political parties is reduced and the best interest of the nation is put forward.  This is not a pipe dream; it is explaining just one possibility.

Quote

Socialism or Fascism, which do we have today?
Seriously, does it matter?  It’s bad news either way and it robs our Freedoms and Liberties.

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#28    RavenHawk

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:27 PM

View PostStartraveler, on 27 November 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

I assume the general consensus among those who "get their noses bent out of shape" is that those who go on screeds against the "socialism agenda" that is the cause of all their problems (right down to their insurance deductible!) have a somewhat paranoid delusional understanding of how government works and the policy agenda that's driving it.
Wrong!  Thank you for playing.  We know exactly how government works and that is the problem that you and your kind are totally unaware of.  The issue is that you think that government does all of these wonderful things just for you and that there are no repercussions from that.  I see government as something to be watched and caution observed when dealing with it because it will take more from you than it gives.  And the longer it stays in power, the more power it takes from the people.  It may be paranoid (and it should be) but it is hardly delusional.  What’s delusional is your blind acceptance of government over your life.

Quote

This thread does nothing to change that impression.
Only in the mind of you and your kind which is one point of the thread.  It’s to showcase the blindness to Socialism.  And from the responses I’ve seen, has been very successful in pointing that out.

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#29    RavenHawk

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:30 PM

View Postkeithisco, on 27 November 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

Just one point, because the OP has lost all sense of proportion...
Really?  Is that the best you can do?  That’s what I thought.

Quote

Who drove through the Patriot Act - the very same act that deprives US Citizens of the right to demand Habeaus Corpus???? (Clue: GWB - Dubya and you all just rolled over in ecstacy to accept it  :w00t:  - idiots)
This is gibberish and also shows a lack of understanding of what the Patriot Act is.  Yes, for a very very very very few, it does suspend Habeas Corpus.  This only applies to those that are clearly dealing with known terrorists.  By doing so, they willingly give up their Rights.  I consider this no more infringement on my Rights as traffic laws are.  However it is Obamacare that robs every single American of their Right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.  And those reasons have already been discussed in a previous reply.

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You now have fewer "rights" than ANY EU Nation..."There's one born every minute"

If you think that any nation in Europe is freer than the United States (at least for the time being) then you were just born a minute ago.  If I may assume that you are European or Canadian??  If so then you already live under Socialism and you simply do not know what it is to be free.  It is impossible for you to know.  Being cared for is not the same as having freedom.  Being cared for is enslavement.  It’s time to take the red pill.  Conversely, it’s interesting to consider the blue bill being blissfully ignorant of illusion = blue state = Socialism.  You take the blue pill, the story ends, you will wake up in your bed and believe what you want to believe. You take the red pill, you will stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.

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#30    RavenHawk

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:32 PM

View Postkeithisco, on 27 November 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

In Bold: so you basically left out any contrary argument to your own to "prove" your point... naive on this Forum - you will be found out!!
What are you taking about?  There is no need to “prove” either side.  Both sides are known entities.  The issue is what side do people want to be on?  And do you understand what each side is?  That one is the hard part.  I think I just cleared that up because it is obviously causing the die hard, brainwashed socialists to scurry about like cockroaches in sunlight.  I’m trying hard to be “found out” because to be “found out” means that people are consciously being confronted with understanding the evils of Socialism.  You can’t hide from it.

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