198 replies to this topic

[Mr Walker]

scowl, on 16 January 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

No, it was real. It looked like a regular person but the Bible says that angels can look just like real people.



And you would know the difference... how?



I don't know if it was physical. How would I know? I don't go running into walls to see if they're real! Only an idiot would do that!



Did I say I doubted it's existence? No. Please pay more attention.



I did not test it's physical existence by shoving it or swinging a baseball bat at it. Who says angels have to be physical anyway? Nothing in the Bible.



The definition of "angel" as a messenger of God is very clear in the Bible which you haven't read.

Angels can and do sometimes look like real people and they can wear armani suits and carry physical objects, but they canalso  materialise and dematerialise at will.

I would know the difference by contextual evidences, influence on environment, whether other witnesses saw the same thing, and also on logicla deduction. The same way one can,  and does, determine the physical reality of anything.

Of course you dont RUN into them You gently walk up to them, push your hand at them and try to meld your molecules with that of the wall. Its never worked for me while i am awake but every night it works fine while I am dreaming. it is called a reality checker and it is one of the most basic tools to see if you are awake and in the mundane world or  dreaming/hallucinating Flying is another checker Every day and every night i aim into the wind and try to fly. So far no success while awake but every night i fly all over the place. This determines consciously the independent reality of waking and sleeping states, and allows controlled lucid dreaming at will  I have alos had my neurologicla and psychologicla health checked and been asses as highly functional and very grounded in reality  I have no evidences at al of any hallucinations or delusional states BUT i know eactly what an hallucination is like. I have nursed people with them, and i have had them myself under the influence of morphine based pain killers.  I recognised both their contextual irregularities and also their resemblance to the descritions given by others who suffered from them ad described them in detail to me. Hallucinations are very easily discenrned using observation reality checkers and  logic, but sadly of course, most people who have them, aren't in a position to use those methods to recognise an hallucination when they have one.


The bible is not the ultimate authority on angels or beings of light.  I had never read the bible when i met my first angel a two metre tall blinding pillar of light which lit up hundres of square feet of night as bright as day and was seen by peole inside a nearby house But my description would have been recognisable to any one from  bible times if i didnt use words like 10000 watts and a neon quality of light/
So this entity was real but you decided it wasnt an angel. FAir enough. To me, if it looks like an angel, talks like an angel, and acts with the powers and abilities ascribed to angels, then as an english teacher i will call it an angel for accuracy of communication with others. I prefer "being of light" but angels do not always appear in that form.

Ps i have read the bible cover to cover more than a dozen times, and studied it with many groups for over a decade. My wife and I still work through bible texts and studies every day, although i no longer read it through in sequence.I live by the bible but i do not believe it is infallible. I could add a chapter to it and I am not infallible. All the words of the bible come via the minds of men and women from several thousand years ago. One always has to keep that in mind. But god and angels are still with us. They can help us, educate us, protect us, empower us, and liberate us, etc., just as they did with men and women in "biblical times"
It is more important to live connected to god, with him in your heart mind and environment, than to live by the bible, or the words of any preacher. An adult person who has to rely on a book, or someone in authority, to tell him what is right and wrong and how to behave, is already in big trouble.

Ps if you had read the bible you would know that while angels are indeed messengers of god, they serve many other functions of god as well, Protectors enforcers and workers of physical acts we call miracles. Teaching and mentoring is an important role but not their only, or indeed main, one.


God and angels keep me alive and protect me from danger. They heal me and empower me. That is at least as important as their teaching  counselling and mentoring role, although I certainly appreciate that as well; but if i was dead then their teaching mentoring counselling and messaging role wouldn't be much use to me, would it?

And damn right if I had the slightest doubt about the physicality of anythin angel or wall or little pink bunny rabbit walking up the wall, the very first thing i would do wouldbe touch it and see what happens. If i could grab the pink rabbit  hold it and stroke it, and it left pink droppings in my lap that remained after it disappeared/dematerialised and were remarked on by others, then I would know i had experienced something with independent reality.

Edited by Mr Walker, 17 January 2013 - 02:20 PM.

[joc]

It is more important to live connected to god, with him in your heart mind and environment, than to live by the bible, or the words of any preacher. An adult person who has to rely on a book, or someone in authority, to tell him what is right and wrong and how to behave, is already in big trouble.

[Beckys_Mom]

joc, on 17 January 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

It is more important to live connected to god, with him in your heart mind and environment, than to live by the bible, or the words of any preacher. An adult person who has to rely on a book, or someone in authority, to tell him what is right and wrong and how to behave, is already in big trouble.

I agree.. If you cannot cope through your life alone, then you reach for a crutch to aid and guide you.. That is what a crutch does, it aids and guides you because you need it.. Same with a bible.. So they say lol

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 17 January 2013 - 03:12 PM.

[scowl]

Mr Walker, on 17 January 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

Of course you dont RUN into them You gently walk up to them, push your hand at them and try to meld your molecules with that of the wall.

But of course. Why didn't I think of that.

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The bible is not the ultimate authority on angels or beings of light.

Of course I know you are the authority on angels Mr Walker!

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So this entity was real but you decided it wasnt an angel. FAir enough.

What in hell are you talking about? I told you it was an angel straight out of the Bible.

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Ps i have read the bible cover to cover more than a dozen times, and studied it with many groups for over a decade.

You often display ignorance of its contents.

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Ps if you had read the bible you would know that while angels are indeed messengers of god, they serve many other functions of god as well, Protectors enforcers and workers of physical acts we call miracles. Teaching and mentoring is an important role but not their only, or indeed main, one.

I can't think of anything outside of Revelation where an angel didn't appear to deliver a message from God.

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God and angels keep me alive and protect me from danger. They heal me and empower me. That is at least as important as their teaching  counselling and mentoring role, although I certainly appreciate that as well; but if i was dead then their teaching mentoring counselling and messaging role wouldn't be much use to me, would it?

I'm not sure what use they are to you right now.

[scowl]

White Unicorn, on 17 January 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

My messenger remembers you well, you were wanting to believe in things supernatural such as fairies then became disappointed in discovering all the hoaxes out there.......you were still looking in the sky for UFOs  when you said this >>>>>  

Yeah, that's me. What does UFOs have anything to do with seeing an angel? I didn't take a picture of the angel because I thought it was just some guy in bright clothing and I hadn't read the New Testament yet. Now that I have, I now know that it was an angel.

[Helen of Annoy]

scowl, on 17 January 2013 - 07:11 PM, said:

I'm not sure what use they are to you right now.

Hi, scowl.
I felt inspired to click this particular thread, for no obvious reason.

I'm not saying I can empower Mr Walker and thus prove angels do that, sometimes by sending someone quite material to his aid, but I will contribute to this discussion.

Starting with the fact that various cultures, if not all of them, have angel-like beings present, quite actively, in human life. Is it the whole humanity insane since the dawn of time or is it you trying to feel some power through scoffing at people who believe they are much more than sack of meat and bones?

[Mr Walker]

scowl, on 17 January 2013 - 07:11 PM, said:

But of course. Why didn't I think of that.



Of course I know you are the authority on angels Mr Walker!



What in hell are you talking about? I told you it was an angel straight out of the Bible.



You often display ignorance of its contents.



I can't think of anything outside of Revelation where an angel didn't appear to deliver a message from God.



I'm not sure what use they are to you right now.

Ok, so I have completely misread your position on angels, their reality/physicality, and their intervention in peoples' lives today. Make it clear to me.

Ps first book of the bible. Angels (cherubims) placed to guard the  entrance to the garden of eden. And do not discount revelation. For better or worse it is a book of the bible, and another role of angels is made clear there.

No I am not an authority on angels, i doubt any such person exists, but i am just as much an "authority" on them as all those people in the old testament who were visited by themand recorded their interactions with them.. Like them, I have to interpret an angel's words and actions, as well as the words and actions of god, through my own understandings and knowledge That is inevitable for any human being when communicating with another independent sapient being; even if the communication is mind to mind, and includes dvd quality imagery, and dolby quality sound, which makes it clearer and more comprehensible.

Ps its possible I sometimes display ignorance of the bible's contents, although normally i check one of the half dozen we use, before posting a biblical quote or point. There is a lot in it.

It is more likely however that my interpretation of those contents differs from your own. Like I said I LIVE very satisfactorily in a modern age by living on biblical principles, but i do not see the bible as literal truth. Its writers were like me, and had the same human qualities as I do. I know my own limitations  (because my wife points them out to me) and so I know theirs.
Angels/beings of light, are recorded in literature before the bible, and in many cultures which had no contact with christianity. Christians met and interpreted these beings, but they are by no means the only ones to do so. Angels and god are accessible to every human being, whatever their belief.

Ps. I was trying to work out how this disagreement began. You responded to a comment I made to another poster, who basically denies the existence of angels other than as hallucinations, about the PHYSICAL reality of angels.

Now my angels are often physical, but indeed often they are invisible, or manifest as external voices,  internal dreams and visions and physical power/energy such as heat and healing. Some come as ordinary humans some as powerful beings of light. An angel is defined by the parameters attributed to it by humans, but those parameters are wide and inclusive..

All my encounters fit within those parameters, but they differ greatly in nature and quality. However, basically, yes, of course angels can manifest in full physical form and physiclaly interact with the rest of the natural environment. Sometimes even as messengers that is necesary to convince a human of the reality and urgency of their message. I wouldnt believe a disembodied voice, or voices in my head, with no further evidences, for example, but a full blown angel is not to be trifled with..

Edited by Mr Walker, 17 January 2013 - 11:55 PM.

[Mr Walker]

Ps  also see the example in 2 Kings chapter 19, where an angel destroys 185,000 Assyrians in one night. God often manifests as an angel, and there are many different descrition of angels, including a number which appear to float or levitate. One appeared to daniel as a man dressed in linen but his face was like lightning and his eyes like torches of fire.

[White Unicorn]

scowl, on 17 January 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

Yeah, that's me. What does UFOs have anything to do with seeing an angel? I didn't take a picture of the angel because I thought it was just some guy in bright clothing and I hadn't read the New Testament yet. Now that I have, I now know that it was an angel.

You were seeking to find evidence of something out of the ordinary and I told you not to give up because you might be looking too hard for the wrong things  (UFO)  when something else would really be there you could miss it ......I bet you weren't looking for anything when you saw what you saw.

Camera's not important even if you get a photo closed mindedpeople will tear it apart. I took a photo of one when I was a kid because I thought I was hallucinating and doubted my experiences, all I got was a glowing light in front of a closet door, and the upper face and chest of a like a man but you couldn't tell if it was male or female, being he was so pretty. Proved to me those beings of light like Mr Walker said can even make themselves physical in whatever forms they want when they appear to us. Same beings are thought of as ghosts, demons, angels, jinn, or aliens depending on who sees them. What ever you call them, they have been with us all along in history and there's more than one kind. When you experience them you don't have the need to prove it to anyone and that's why most of the stuff publicized is the hoaxers and a just a few from the real seekers.

Edited by White Unicorn, 18 January 2013 - 01:15 AM.

[Mr Walker]

White Unicorn, on 18 January 2013 - 01:05 AM, said:

You were seeking to find evidence of something out of the ordinary and I told you not to give up because you might be looking too hard for the wrong things  (UFO)  when something else would really be there you could miss it ......I bet you weren't looking for anything when you saw what you saw.

Camera's not important even if you get a photo closed mindedpeople will tear it apart. I took a photo of one when I was a kid because I thought I was hallucinating and doubted my experiences, all I got was a glowing light in front of a closet door, and the upper face and chest of a like a man but you couldn't tell if it was male or female, being he was so pretty. Proved to me those beings of light like Mr Walker said can even make themselves physical in whatever forms they want when they appear to us. Same beings are thought of as ghosts, demons, angels, jinn, or aliens depending on who sees them. What ever you call them, they have been with us all along in history and there's more than one kind. When you experience them you don't have the need to prove it to anyone and that's why most of the stuff publicized is the hoaxers and a just a few from the real seekers.

They are 'pretty" arent they. Usually, examples of physical perfection and monumental power. One I had visit me in hospital to bring me a bible, was such a handsome, well buffed young man,  and dressed in such an expensive, well cut suit, that all the nurses came up to me after he had gone, asking who he was, and what he was doing.

He disappeared from a fifth floor balcony right after this. Would a camera have captured his image?Iit would seem logical that it would, but then again it might not. A being who can dematerialise at will might also have the abilty to cloak itself from present human technology. The task of this being required a physical presence and visibility  to explain the presence of the bible, and its gifting to me, but that doesn't  necesarily mean it could have been captured on a film.

Edited by Mr Walker, 18 January 2013 - 05:49 AM.

[scowl]

White Unicorn, on 18 January 2013 - 01:05 AM, said:

You were seeking to find evidence of something out of the ordinary and I told you not to give up because you might be looking too hard for the wrong things  (UFO)  when something else would really be there you could miss it ......I bet you weren't looking for anything when you saw what you saw.

No I wasn't, and I didn't see anything usual so I don't know what you're talking about here.

Quote

Camera's not important even if you get a photo closed mindedpeople will tear it apart.

It would be important because I would want someone more informed than me to identify what I saw if anything.

[scowl]

Mr Walker, on 17 January 2013 - 10:58 PM, said:

Ok, so I have completely misread your position on angels, their reality/physicality, and their intervention in peoples' lives today. Make it clear to me.

I have no position on angels. Why should I have one? I simply saw a person that matched the description of one in the Bible. As you say, if I saw an angel then there can be doubt that I saw one.

[White Unicorn]

scowl, on 18 January 2013 - 11:29 PM, said:

No I wasn't, and I didn't see anything usual so I don't know what you're talking about here.



It would be important because I would want someone more informed than me to identify what I saw if anything.

What you saw could have been one, if it was you will KNOW later for sure.

Camera was very important to me too when I was young and had one close when it came back.  I needed evidence to solve a mystery and help answer my own questions and it let me take a picture but the body and wings disappeared   I don't question their existence but I try to understand what they really are and the reasons for their contacts which is more important. It's facinating!

By the way, I didn't have a clue if God or angels really existed back then.  It led me to researching every religious perspective I could find on the subject. That gives you a background view of different beliefs but even that can lead you to distorted points views or how they will come to you.....you'll find out more from contacts then in books.

They are beings with consciousness that can manipulate energy to their will and there are even bad ones that could deceive people very easily. Know them by their works is the only guidance I can give in that area.

[Mr Walker]

scowl, on 14 January 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

If I ever needed to prove a wall existed, that's exactly what I would. However if angels were as common as walls, we would not need to prove they exist.

Ok in response to my comments to another poster you said the above. Now you explain that you have seen a angel, yet you feel a need to prove they exist.

I dont understand. If i see something then it exists. I have no need for scientific proofs to validate objects sensed by my sight touch smell, or my  mental perceptions although i have medical proofs that both are sound, and in fact above average..

The commonality of angels does not matter. Only one angel has to be real for angels to be real.

I would personally check and validate the reality of an angel just as I would the validity of  a wall.

If  the evidences of its existence were the same as for a wall, then the angel existed.

No further scientific proof required.

No one(who is mentally well) needs science or scientific confirmation to be personally certain of their reality.  Humans have been evolving and existing for hundreds of thousands of years. We evolved to  be a functional part of that  greater reality  in which we evolved, and thus we "automatically" perceive it and adapt to it from birth.
Children learn the solidity of a wall from experience not from science, and adults learn in the same fashion. If you saw an angel then you know they exist. You dont need scientific validation of that fact..

[joc]

Mr Walker, on 17 January 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

Angels can and do sometimes look like real people and they can wear armani suits and carry physical objects, but they canalso  materialise and dematerialise at will.

I would know the difference by contextual evidences, influence on environment, whether other witnesses saw the same thing, and also on logicla deduction. The same way one can,  and does, determine the physical reality of anything.

Of course you dont RUN into them You gently walk up to them, push your hand at them and try to meld your molecules with that of the wall. Its never worked for me while i am awake but every night it works fine while I am dreaming. it is called a reality checker and it is one of the most basic tools to see if you are awake and in the mundane world or  dreaming/hallucinating Flying is another checker Every day and every night i aim into the wind and try to fly. So far no success while awake but every night i fly all over the place. This determines consciously the independent reality of waking and sleeping states, and allows controlled lucid dreaming at will  I have alos had my neurologicla and psychologicla health checked and been asses as highly functional and very grounded in reality  I have no evidences at al of any hallucinations or delusional states BUT i know eactly what an hallucination is like. I have nursed people with them, and i have had them myself under the influence of morphine based pain killers.  I recognised both their contextual irregularities and also their resemblance to the descritions given by others who suffered from them ad described them in detail to me. Hallucinations are very easily discenrned using observation reality checkers and  logic, but sadly of course, most people who have them, aren't in a position to use those methods to recognise an hallucination when they have one.


The bible is not the ultimate authority on angels or beings of light.  I had never read the bible when i met my first angel a two metre tall blinding pillar of light which lit up hundres of square feet of night as bright as day and was seen by peole inside a nearby house But my description would have been recognisable to any one from  bible times if i didnt use words like 10000 watts and a neon quality of light/
So this entity was real but you decided it wasnt an angel. FAir enough. To me, if it looks like an angel, talks like an angel, and acts with the powers and abilities ascribed to angels, then as an english teacher i will call it an angel for accuracy of communication with others. I prefer "being of light" but angels do not always appear in that form.

Ps i have read the bible cover to cover more than a dozen times, and studied it with many groups for over a decade. My wife and I still work through bible texts and studies every day, although i no longer read it through in sequence.I live by the bible but i do not believe it is infallible. I could add a chapter to it and I am not infallible. All the words of the bible come via the minds of men and women from several thousand years ago. One always has to keep that in mind. But god and angels are still with us. They can help us, educate us, protect us, empower us, and liberate us, etc., just as they did with men and women in "biblical times"
It is more important to live connected to god, with him in your heart mind and environment, than to live by the bible, or the words of any preacher. An adult person who has to rely on a book, or someone in authority, to tell him what is right and wrong and how to behave, is already in big trouble.

Ps if you had read the bible you would know that while angels are indeed messengers of god, they serve many other functions of god as well, Protectors enforcers and workers of physical acts we call miracles. Teaching and mentoring is an important role but not their only, or indeed main, one.


God and angels keep me alive and protect me from danger. They heal me and empower me. That is at least as important as their teaching  counselling and mentoring role, although I certainly appreciate that as well; but if i was dead then their teaching mentoring counselling and messaging role wouldn't be much use to me, would it?

And damn right if I had the slightest doubt about the physicality of anythin angel or wall or little pink bunny rabbit walking up the wall, the very first thing i would do wouldbe touch it and see what happens. If i could grab the pink rabbit  hold it and stroke it, and it left pink droppings in my lap that remained after it disappeared/dematerialised and were remarked on by others, then I would know i had experienced something with independent reality.

I didn't quote that earlier...just wanted everyone to know those were Mr. Walker's words...not mine.