438 replies to this topic

[skyeagle409]

Czero 101, on 22 June 2011 - 07:48 AM, said:

I said it right here in my original post, Sky...
Cz

All I wanted you to do was to confirm to everyone in this thread that Roswell was brought up before the 1970s. I should have also mentioned that Roswell was also brought up in 1952. You will know when you get to Roswell in the following article..

*********************************************************************************************
"The Flying Saucers and the Mysterious Little Men"
by J. P. Cahn, True magazine, September 1952

My link
**********************************************************************************************

There are other publicatons from the 1950s and 1960s that also covers the Roswell incident. In addition, the 509th Bomber Group is not an organization to conduct a counter-intelligence operation on UFOs, balloons, etc., because of its unique position as the world's only nuclear capable bomber group. Take a look at this headline. What can you deceipher from that headline and taking into consideration the mission of the 509th Bomber Group.


If you served in  theStrategic Air Command, ( SAC), you would know the significance of the following news headline.



And the significance of this news headline.



My link

And, the significance of Colonel Blanchard's career in regards to those two news headlines in 1947.

Quote

Colonel William Blanchard

In the climaxing phase of World War II, then Colonel Blanchard was directed to prepare and supervise the detailed operations order for the delivery of the first atomic bomb on Hiroshima. He was the backup pilot for the Hiroshima A-bomb drop, which was ultimately delivered by Colonel Paul W. Tibbets, Commanding Officer of the 509th Atomic Bombardment Group or Wing.

After the war, on January 20, 1946, Blanchard became Commanding Officer of the 509th, succeeding Tibbetts. By this time, post-war demobilization had reduced the 509th to a skeleton crew. But Blanchard and the 509th were immediately ordered to commence operations for the "Operation Crossroads" atomic tests at Bikini atoll. With highest priorities, crews were assembled and in March the 509th was transferred to Kwajalein, Marshall Islands for the Bikini atomic bomb tests, that ultimately took place that July.

<DIV class="thumb tleft"><DIV style="WIDTH: 172px" class=thumbinner> <DIV class=thumbcaption><DIV class=magnify>flying saucer" from a nearby ranch, it had been found "sometime last week," and they were flying it to "higher headquarters". The press release and the media feeding frenzy that followed it triggered the so-called Roswell UFO Incident. Higher headquarters turned out to be Brigadier General Roger Ramey, head of the Eighth Army Air Force in Fort Worth, Texas, who quickly pronounced it a misidentified weather balloon. Ironically, Blanchard's press release and the Roswell Incident it triggered are perhaps what Blanchard became best known for by the public at large decades later when the event was reopened and investigated, with many books written. (see also Walter Haut, Blanchard's public information officer, who put out the press release)</P>A year later, in 1948, Blanchard was assigned to Strategic Air Command's Eighth Air Force Headquarters in Fort Worth as director of operations. Blanchard helped direct the atomic training of crews for B-36s, the United States' first intercontinental bombers. After commanding B-50 and B-36 bomber units of SAC, he was assigned as deputy director of operations for that command in 1953.

In June 1956, he was a member of a group of U.S. Air Force officers who accompanied General Nathan Twining, then chief of staff of the U.S. Air Force, on an official visit to the Soviet Union which included a conducted tour of points of military interest in the Moscow and Stalingrad areas.

General Blanchard assumed command of SAC's 7th Air Division in England in 1957. Returning to SAC headquarters three years later, he was assigned as director of operations.

After 15 years of continuous service in SAC, he was appointed the inspector general, U.S. Air Force, and was promoted to the rank of lieutenant general. In August 1963 he was named deputy chief of staff, programs and requirements in Headquarters U.S. Air Force, and assumed the duty as deputy chief of staff, plans and operations, in February 1964. He was assigned the additional duty as senior Air Force member, Military Staff Committee of the United Nations, later that year.

On February 19, 1965, General Blanchard became Vice Chief of Staff of the U.S. Air Force, with promotion to four-star rank. He died May 31, 1966 while still on active duty. He was buried at the United States Air Force Academy Cemetery. There is a building at Bolling Air Force Base named in his honor.

My link

If you served in the U.S. military, Blanchard's flourishing military career after the Roswell incident should have told you that senior military officials didn't see the original Roswell news headline as a mistake on his part. In other words, the original news headline is exactly what was recovered. Had Blanchard truly mistaken balsa wood and tin foil as a flying saucer, he would have been removed from his position as commander, and his career would have suffered, but as it was, his career flourished, which tells the real story of  what were recovered,.

The reason why I am handing out these little hints, is my own experience within the Air Force on public relations and its  cover-ups, and from my  first hand experience as well on an Air Force cover-up, which is why I have stated for the record that the original Roswell news headline was actually the news headline of the century.

Edited by skyeagle409, 22 June 2011 - 09:13 AM.

[Czero 101]

skyeagle409, on 22 June 2011 - 08:18 AM, said:

All I wanted you to do was to confirm to everyone in this thread that Roswell was brought up before the 1970s.

Then why not simply quote my post where my words were "written in stone" as it were...?


ETA...

But wait... you did quote my post in your post #341 back on page 23... and after quoting it you took the dramatic route of asking me to confirm what you had posted...

Why is that, Sky? Why the need for all the dramatics?




Cz

Edited by Czero 101, 22 June 2011 - 08:27 AM.

[lost_shaman]

skyeagle409, on 22 June 2011 - 08:18 AM, said:

All I wanted you to do was to confirm to everyone in this thread that Roswell was brought up before the 1970s.

Why? No one argued it didn't you just brought it up randomly after I said Marcel didn't say anything until the late 1970's.

[lost_shaman]

Czero 101, on 22 June 2011 - 08:15 AM, said:

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, I believe LS proposed such a thing as part of his CI operation theory...




Cz

I did. Although that's not a central point, I have suggested it. Judging by the lack of coherent arguement against it I feel a bit disappointed.

[quillius]

psyche101, on 22 June 2011 - 12:40 AM, said:

Hi Quillius

It would be prudent to do a quick search on the BE threads. This is an argument that has been brought up many times before. Lost Shaman may have been a little general in his wording this time around is all. Yes, The Roswell Incident received a smattering of exposure. You could count the times it came up over the space of 30 years on your fingers. That is the point. I am quite positive I have said so as well. And those references claim Balloons. Only a fictional novel, which it would be ludicrous to claim was not inspired by Roswell residents, claims something more than balloons. I asked for an Alien reference prior to 1979. One cannot say Roswell was never discussed, the RDR has been displayed more times than I care to mention. I am sorry to see that you think this was a challenge of some sort. Lost Shaman made a comment that Sky took to extremes, fueled by old lost arguments. I really do not care if he posts 9 or 10 references, which would be a struggle, that fact remains that Roswell was by large not discussed for 30 years. Then in 1979 one Stanton Friedman came along and sensationalised the tale, and injected Aliens into the story. If it was that talk of the town, I would expect to easily find in excess of 500 references. That is what Sky originally alluded to. I actually remember saying to him that Roswell was still not as important as he makes out - if I asked ten people in the street who Jesse Marcel was, I doubt I would get a single one who could answer me.
Sky is just trying to turn this onto me and make it personal so that he can in some way claim victory over me. Have you not noticed the unusual amount of attention he gives me? He has been chomping at the bit for ages on that one.


Yet Sky said it was reported, and then gave us a fictional novel! That is not a report. All Cz is doing is illustrating yet more deliberate cherry picking. He has no horse in this race, he is running his own. There are many aspect of this discussion, Cz's point is merely but one of them.

no need to do a search as it is not my point. The point was that Sky was asked to provide references indicating that Roswell was mentioned, he did so, he was not being misleading when doing so, at least not misleading with the reference and snipping it to fit, as it doesnt need to fit he just had to show the word roswell.

However this is now moot as it turns out LS was actually asking a different question regarding Marcel, so it was all a waste of time, maybe Sky is at fault here for not reading the question clearly, but certianly not for being misleading with the book link.

Can I confirm that the question you ask now is, is there any mention of Aliens and Roswell prior to 1970?
and the question from LS, did Marcel mention it ever again until after the 1970's?

correct?

[skyeagle409]

lost_shaman, on 22 June 2011 - 08:21 AM, said:

Why? No one argued it didn't you just brought it up randomly after I said Marcel didn't say anything until the late 1970's.

You wrote the following.

lost_shaman, on 20 June 2011 - 03:16 AM, said:

Right, while being circumstantial like many other things it totally fits with my hypothesis. The debris in Ramey's office was absolutely a torn up RAWIN target yet Marcel was trying to convince Newton this was real Alien Spacecraft debris in front of the Press 'hoard' that was gathered, yet we hear nothing more about it until the late mid-seventies. This is very strange behavior but in the context of my hypothesis it makes sense considering that the Press was present and my hypothesis states the whole operation was directed towards the Press.

My response was that it was brought up before the 1970s. There have been those who have claimed that nothing came about in regards to the Roswell incident until the late 1970s,. which is incorrect.

Now, Marcel was part of the cover-up and he had no choice in the matter, but to go along with th cover-up, so it shouldn't have been strange to understand since Marcel was still in uniform. Two goals were set  in regards to the weather balloon cover story.

1. To cover-up the recoveries

2. To get the press off their backs.

The unique mission and position of the 509th Bomber Group made it highly unlikely that they would have concoct your hypothesis, and its mission was much too important to be simply playing games with the public. The fact that we have the "flying disc" headlines show that the military was very excited, and in fact, so excited that they acted too quickly to understand the possible consequences.



My link

Your hypothesis could have been used at another base where its mission was not as critical, but  Dubose, Marcel, Haut, Easley, Exon, and others would have known of a CIC operation and had  years to blow the whistle, and yet, right up to their deaths, they said nothing of such an operation as responsible for the Roswell incident.. Marcel was connected to intelligence and could have  blown the whistle years later on a CIC operation, but instead, continued to point toward ET, and the fact that Easley became involved with his men, was another example that such an operation was not responsible for the incident and Haut's affidavit pretty much spelled it out that no such operation was responsible for the Roswell incident.

The bottom line is, you don't do anything that is going to seriously jeopardize  the mission and if you do, you are going to pay a price, and in the case of Roswell, the military had to scramble for damage control and that is where the weather balloon cover story came in.

Edited by skyeagle409, 22 June 2011 - 06:52 PM.

[1963]

skyeagle409, on 22 June 2011 - 06:30 PM, said:

You wrote the following.



My response was that it was brought up before the 1970s. There have been those who have claimed that nothing came about in regards to the Roswell incident until the late 1970s,. which is incorrect.

Now, Marcel was part of the cover-up and he had no choice in the matter, but to go along with th cover-up, so it shouldn't have been strange to understand since Marcel was still in uniform. Two goals were set  in regards to the weather balloon cover story.

1. To cover-up the recoveries

2. To get the press off their backs.

The unique mission and position of the 509th Bomber Group made it highly unlikely that they would have concoct your hypothesis, and its mission was much too important to be simply playing games with the public. The fact that we have the "flying disc" headlines show that the military was very excited, and in fact, so excited that they acted too quickly to understand the possible consequences.



My link

Your hypothesis could have been used at another base where its mission was not as critical, but  Dubose, Marcel, Haut, Easley, Exon, and others would have known of a CIC operation and had  years to blow the whistle, and yet, right up to their deaths, they said nothing of such an operation as responsible for the Roswell incident.. Marcel was connected to intelligence and could have  blown the whistle years later on a CIC operation, but instead, continued to point toward ET, and the fact that Easley became involved with his men, was another example that such an operation was not responsible for the incident and Haut's affidavit pretty much spelled it out that no such operation was responsible for the Roswell incident.

The bottom line is, you don't do anything that is going to seriously jeopardize  the mission and if you do, you are going to pay a price, and in the case of Roswell, the military had to scramble for damage control and that is where the weather balloon cover story came in.

Hi Sky!
I found this interesting link today, that I believe to be a important addition to the Roswell Story.
(Depending on your take on the validity of the article?)
Well, it's an addition to me anyway!...Though there's a good chance that it's already known to you!....

http://www.openminds...ilitary-convoy/

The 11th hour testimonies are always a little suspect to me,...but it's just possible?
What do you think? and Do you have any further links to prove/disprove any of this?

Cheers.

Edited by 1963, 22 June 2011 - 09:57 PM.

[psyche101]

quillius, on 22 June 2011 - 10:51 AM, said:

no need to do a search as it is not my point. The point was that Sky was asked to provide references indicating that Roswell was mentioned, he did so, he was not being misleading when doing so, at least not misleading with the reference and snipping it to fit, as it doesnt need to fit he just had to show the word roswell.

I think the search would have been prudent because you would then have seen a historical record that the point has always been that it was rarely mentioned. Not not mentioned at all. Sky saw an opening and ran with it. That is all, and it was an unfounded assumption. My mistake was falling into a tired old argument, and due to the repetitiveness of old arguments, I was caught of guard. I am not sure who he was trying to prove what to.

quillius, on 22 June 2011 - 10:51 AM, said:

However this is now moot as it turns out LS was actually asking a different question regarding Marcel, so it was all a waste of time, maybe Sky is at fault here for not reading the question clearly, but certianly not for being misleading with the book link.

I still do not see a fictional novel as any sort of proof of being "reported" however each to their own.

quillius, on 22 June 2011 - 10:51 AM, said:

Can I confirm that the question you ask now is, is there any mention of Aliens and Roswell prior to 1970?
and the question from LS, did Marcel mention it ever again until after the 1970's?

correct?

Aliens - No.
Marcel - No.
And you can extend that date to 1979.

[psyche101]

1963, on 22 June 2011 - 09:57 PM, said:

Hi Sky!
I found this interesting link today, that I believe to be a important addition to the Roswell Story.
(Depending on your take on the validity of the article?)
Well, it's an addition to me anyway!...Though there's a good chance that it's already known to you!....

http://www.openminds...ilitary-convoy/

The 11th hour testimonies are always a little suspect to me,...but it's just possible?
What do you think? and Do you have any further links to prove/disprove any of this?

Cheers.

Hey Sky

I would appreciate if you had a close look at this link, and see what the alleged witnesses say about the size of the alleged craft.

Thanks.

[DONTEATUS]

There were lots of Tin Foil laying around in Roswell in those days !
I would have to Say that the Alien Craft was about the Size of a Pie Pan at best. Im still Looking for the String and the Cow`s that pulled off this Great Stunt !

Attached Files

•  HomePageRaceJonnyFrogmen.jpg   112.11K   1 downloads

[psyche101]

DONTEATUS, on 23 June 2011 - 03:12 AM, said:

There were lots of Tin Foil laying around in Roswell in those days !
I would have to Say that the Alien Craft was about the Size of a Pie Pan at best. Im still Looking for the String and the Cow`s that pulled off this Great Stunt !

[lost_shaman]

skyeagle409, on 22 June 2011 - 06:30 PM, said:

You wrote the following.



My response was that it was brought up before the 1970s. There have been those who have claimed that nothing came about in regards to the Roswell incident until the late 1970s,. which is incorrect.

Yes, I did write that. I was specifically talking about Marcel not saying anything. I know Roswell was mentioned before and I honestly don't really care who may have claimed otherwise in your distant past. That doesn't concern us involved in this discussion does it?

skyeagle409, on 22 June 2011 - 06:30 PM, said:

Now, Marcel was part of the cover-up and he had no choice in the matter, but to go along with th cover-up, so it shouldn't have been strange to understand since Marcel was still in uniform. Two goals were set  in regards to the weather balloon cover story.

1. To cover-up the recoveries

2. To get the press off their backs.

My hypothesis says the Goals were to...

1) Lie to the Press about a recovery. (Recovering a 'Disc' was something Ramey and his Intel. Chief Kalberer had talked about in the Press immediately following the Press reports of Kenneth Arnold's sighting.)

2) Shoot the whole thing down at the height of the 'Frenzy' embarrassing the Press so that they didn't want to report on the Phenomena. (After the RAWIN shows put on by Army and Navy starting on July 9th the Press stopped reporting 'Flying Disk' stories, by and large.)

The whole point here is that a High level Top Secret investigation had already been initiated by Lt. Gen. Twining on July 2nd. Also note that Ramey's and Kalberer's discussion of 'Discs' in the Press stopped on July 2nd. Crashed 'Aliens' on a remote Ranch can't explain any of that, but my hypothesis employs these facts.

skyeagle409, on 22 June 2011 - 06:30 PM, said:

[/b]The unique mission and position of the 509th Bomber Group made it highly unlikely that they would have concoct your hypothesis,

Yes, that's true. I developed my hypothesis after I found it to be really strange that there were a 'cluster' of RAWIN targets in the local newspapers next 'door' to Wright Field between July 5th - 8th. I postulate that the Idea originated at Wright Field after Twining ordered the investigation (July 2nd) and before the events took place during the "Roswell events" (July 8th). The concerted efforts to Fly RAWIN Targets for the Press began on July 9th.

Note how all these dates flow together. Note how simply my hypothesis ties them altogether.



Edit: To fix quoted tags.

Edited by lost_shaman, 23 June 2011 - 07:55 AM.

[skyeagle409]

1963, on 22 June 2011 - 09:57 PM, said:

Hi Sky!
I found this interesting link today, that I believe to be a important addition to the Roswell Story.
(Depending on your take on the validity of the article?)
Well, it's an addition to me anyway!...Though there's a good chance that it's already known to you!....

http://www.openminds...ilitary-convoy/

The 11th hour testimonies are always a little suspect to me,...but it's just possible?
What do you think? and Do you have any further links to prove/disprove any of this?

Cheers.

Thanks!

I found it very interesting that an "egg-shaped" object was described because at a time when people were talking "flying saucers," there were reports of 'egg-shaped" obects overflying New mexico. Look what was in the affidavit of Lt. Haut.

Quote

Dead Airman's Affidavit: Roswell Aliens Were Real

UFO pieces handed around

Haut's affidavit talks about a high-level meeting he attended with base commander Col. William Blanchard and the Commander of the Eighth Army Air Force, Gen. Roger Ramey. Haut states that at this meeting, pieces of wreckage were handed around for participants to touch, with nobody able to identify the material. He says the press release was issued because locals were already aware of the crash site, but in fact there had been a second crash site, where more debris from the craft had fallen. The plan was that an announcement acknowledging the first site, which had been discovered by a farmer, would divert attention from the second and more important location.




The clean-up operation

Haut also spoke about a clean-up operation, where for months afterward military personnel scoured both crash sites searching for all remaining pieces of debris, removing them and erasing all signs that anything unusual had occurred. This ties in with claims made by locals that debris collected as souvenirs was seized by the military. Haut then tells how Colonel Blanchard took him to "Building 84" — one of the hangars at Roswell — and showed him the craft itself. He describes a metallic egg-shaped object around 12-15 feet in length and around 6 feet wide. He said he saw no windows, wings, tail, landing gear or any other feature.




Haut "saw the alien bodies"

He saw two bodies on the floor, partially covered by a tarpaulin. They are described in his statement as about 4 feet tall, with disproportionately large heads. Towards the end of the affidavit, Haut concludes: "I am convinced that what I personally observed was some kind of craft and its crew from outer space."




UFO pieces handed around

Haut's affidavit talks about a high-level meeting he attended with base commander Col. William Blanchard and the Commander of the Eighth Army Air Force, Gen. Roger Ramey. Haut states that at this meeting, pieces of wreckage were handed around for participants to touch, with nobody able to identify the material. He says the press release was issued because locals were already aware of the crash site, but in fact there had been a second crash site, where more debris from the craft had fallen. The plan was that an announcement acknowledging the first site, which had been discovered by a farmer, would divert attention from the second and more important location.

My link

.

Where have we heard of egg-shaped objects in New Mexico before? Also, other folks such as General Arthur Exon, former commanding officer of Wright-Patterson AFB, and whom overllew the Roswell crash areas, confirmed that there were two crash sites, not just one.

Here is another description of an egg-shaped  object in New Mexico.

Quote

Socorro, New Mexico Landing (Lonnie Zamora) 1964




The object was on girder like legs, white . . . and egg shaped or oval

My link

So, we are now talking two crash sites and an egg-shaped object recovered by the military.

[quillius]

psyche101, on 22 June 2011 - 10:41 PM, said:

I think the search would have been prudent because you would then have seen a historical record that the point has always been that it was rarely mentioned. Not not mentioned at all. Sky saw an opening and ran with it. That is all, and it was an unfounded assumption. My mistake was falling into a tired old argument, and due to the repetitiveness of old arguments, I was caught of guard. I am not sure who he was trying to prove what to.



I still do not see a fictional novel as any sort of proof of being "reported" however each to their own.



Aliens - No.
Marcel - No.
And you can extend that date to 1979.

Hey Psyche, lots of misunderstandings it seems have happened.
I also agree that fictional novels are not proof of being reported, but attacking proof is different to attacking posters intentions. Anyhow, before we get into people posting lets focus on the points/questions.

I see you answered the questions, although my question was more confirming that the two questions are those that needed answering (posed to SKy) as opposed to asking you to answer them.

[quillius]

lost_shaman, on 23 June 2011 - 07:52 AM, said:

My hypothesis says the Goals were to...

1) Lie to the Press about a recovery. (Recovering a 'Disc' was something Ramey and his Intel. Chief Kalberer had talked about in the Press immediately following the Press reports of Kenneth Arnold's sighting.)

2) Shoot the whole thing down at the height of the 'Frenzy' embarrassing the Press so that they didn't want to report on the Phenomena. (After the RAWIN shows put on by Army and Navy starting on July 9th the Press stopped reporting 'Flying Disk' stories, by and large.)

They certainly fit dont they.