taniwha Posted September 20, 2015 #1 Share Posted September 20, 2015 I was asking myself, is the universe a time-machine? Nobody should be suprised if it is. Events can be calculated to happen before they happen, it is no secret... solar and lunar phases, planetary orbits, comet returns, galactic rotations, from wedding anniversaries to rainstorms...the list goes on. Everything apparently ebbs and flows with the grease of a well oiled machine... But why so? Perhaps if there was no certainty then nothing would be possible, least of all life? Our perception within the time-machine is finely tuned... as we are able to percieve change, It is natural to conclude that life cycles adapt coincidentally to mesh with the cogs of the universe. But often is the case, sometimes it is hard to see the forest for the trees. For instance we are aware that life precedes death and the end will never happen before the beginning, a song wasnt yet written without a composer and a painting wasnt yet painted without an artist... ...of course that doesnt mean events can only ever happen in that order, our intelligence is limited to comprehend such complexity, it is microscopic by comparison to the powerful mechanism of the universe... ...and when truly in harmony with the gears of time, perhaps people can have the future or even the past revealed to them in visions, or dreams or just good old fashioned gut instincts... I suppose such abilities may save lives...or even beget new technologies?... Or maybe not...what are your thoughts on this? ...But consider.... ...How is it that the universe continues moving onward by the second, by the day, by the year...rolling and rolling like a giant wheel? Where is it going to? Where is it taking us? How do you think the universe 'moves'? How does it move you? Nevertheless, enjoy the ride while you can! Dont despair, the purpose of such an incredible time-machine may simply be to exist forever...! I welcome everyones thoughts on this idea and any other concepts about what the universe may or may not be. Thank you! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted September 20, 2015 #2 Share Posted September 20, 2015 (edited) quite, quite... a one way time machine in the future...advancing second by second. Edited September 20, 2015 by questionmark 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Noteverythingisaconspiracy Posted September 20, 2015 #3 Share Posted September 20, 2015 quite, quite... a one way rime machine in the future...advancing second by second. Unless you are very near a black hole. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stereologist Posted September 20, 2015 #4 Share Posted September 20, 2015 The fact that some events of the future can be predicted such as the motion of objects in space, sounds to me more like an argument that the universe is based on mathematics than it is that the universe is a time machine. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarjarbinks Posted September 20, 2015 #5 Share Posted September 20, 2015 i have a time machine in my bedroom, everytime i want to skip a couple of hours, i lay in my bed and it worked 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taniwha Posted September 21, 2015 Author #6 Share Posted September 21, 2015 quite, quite... a one way time machine in the future...advancing second by second. ... thats it in a nutshell!... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taniwha Posted September 21, 2015 Author #7 Share Posted September 21, 2015 The fact that some events of the future can be predicted such as the motion of objects in space, sounds to me more like an argument that the universe is based on mathematics than it is that the universe is a time machine. Well maybe all time-machines are based on mathematics, and if the universe is such a machine perhaps mathematics is a naturally occuring function, so yes you make a good point. Can a hyper-machine create 'reality' using mathematical algorithms for example? I think the answer is yes, and to better understand how this might work i highly recommend watching this short video about the game 'No Mans Sky' and its awesome simulated infinite universe! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taniwha Posted September 21, 2015 Author #8 Share Posted September 21, 2015 i have a time machine in my bedroom, everytime i want to skip a couple of hours, i lay in my bed and it worked LOL... i had one outside my hotel room just the other night! Every hour on the hour it would shake me awake as it clattered down the tracks! Damn time-machines ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stereologist Posted September 21, 2015 #9 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Well maybe all time-machines are based on mathematics, and if the universe is such a machine perhaps mathematics is a naturally occuring function, so yes you make a good point. Can a hyper-machine create 'reality' using mathematical algorithms for example? I think the answer is yes, and to better understand how this might work i highly recommend watching this short video about the game 'No Mans Sky' and its awesome simulated infinite universe! The video was long in my opinion at 8 minutes and 50 seconds. I only watched half of it to verify that I had what I needed. You missed my point. My point is that nothing you stated in the OP suggests a time machine. It suggests that the universe may be mathematical. You seem to agree with that. The video confirms that. That tells me that there is no time-machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taniwha Posted September 21, 2015 Author #10 Share Posted September 21, 2015 The video was long in my opinion at 8 minutes and 50 seconds. I only watched half of it to verify that I had what I needed. It is claimed that the game itself has 18 quintillion full size planets and even if you explored each one at a rate of 1 every second you will be there for 5 billion years! You missed my point. My point is that nothing you stated in the OP suggests a time machine. It suggests that the universe may be mathematical. You seem to agree with that. The video confirms that. That tells me that there is no time-machine. Either way, isnt it you asserting the universe is mathematical? Do you suggest that in the beginning, there was mathematics? Its an interesting concept, but what does that look like? Needless to say, without the math how would a time-machine work anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted September 21, 2015 #11 Share Posted September 21, 2015 I am a traveler in time and space ... to be where I have been . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stereologist Posted September 21, 2015 #12 Share Posted September 21, 2015 It is claimed that the game itself has 18 quintillion full size planets and even if you explored each one at a rate of 1 every second you will be there for 5 billion years! Either way, isnt it you asserting the universe is mathematical? Do you suggest that in the beginning, there was mathematics? Its an interesting concept, but what does that look like? Needless to say, without the math how would a time-machine work anyway? The size of the game does not change the fact that the game is computed from plans. They make that very clear. There are fixed plans for their game and they use this to compress the data to express such a large system. I am not asserting that the universe is mathematical. You are asserting that predictable phenomena are indicative of a time machine. I am asking you why that does not indicate a mathetical universe. How can you differentiate between a mathematical universe and one you claim suggests a time machine. So you ask how a time-machine works without math. That is a question to discuss later. I am asking you why you think being able to predict phenomenon suggests a time machine. I gave another possibility. That possibility is a mathematical universe. Your opening line is "I was asking myself, is the universe a time-machine?" I don't see anything after that which suggests that the universe is a time machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taniwha Posted September 22, 2015 Author #13 Share Posted September 22, 2015 The size of the game does not change the fact that the game is computed from plans. They make that very clear. There are fixed plans for their game and they use this to compress the data to express such a large system. Yes, thank you. I find this also interesting...if you explore any planet within the game, then any 'reality' you witness is never pre-concieved. It is only constructed by the algorithms once you have reached the point of observation. What exact structures will be expressed no one ever knows, because they are always randomly generated. The algorithms are 'forced' to construct something for you to observe by the very act of you being there to 'observe' it. Entering 'No Mans Sky' is like lifting the lid off schrodingers cat every time you travel deeper into it! In that virtual sense if you ask yourself, "Does a tree fall in the woods when there is nobody around to see it?".... Then the answer will definitely be 'no!' Does this somehow mimics how our own universe might progress? Does it mimic a quantum universe? Food for thought really. Personally I dont think any of this proves or even disproves that the universe is a simulated computer programme, but if it in fact is, then on a very humble scale, 'No Mans Sky' at least might help us to better visualise some of the less complex mathematical concepts functioning behind the scenes. I am not asserting that the universe is mathematical. You are asserting that predictable phenomena are indicative of a time machine. I am asking you why that does not indicate a mathetical universe. How can you differentiate between a mathematical universe and one you claim suggests a time machine. You will need to be a lot more specific on what you mean by a mathematical universe. What is generally accepted in science is that space and time co-exist to form the 4 dimensions known as space-time. Maybe a space-time-math-time continuum is even plausible... it is afterall speculated more than ten dimensions may exist in our universe. Im sorry if im missing your point again. So you ask how a time-machine works without math. That is a question to discuss later. I am asking you why you think being able to predict phenomenon suggests a time machine. I am not a scientist, just an ordinary guy, but ask yourself ... ... Where does yesterday go to, and where does tomorrow come from? ... Is not the universe the progenitor of space and time? I gave another possibility. That possibility is a mathematical universe. Your opening line is "I was asking myself, is the universe a time-machine?" I don't see anything after that which suggests that the universe is a time machine. Do you wish to explain how everything thereafter suggests to you that we are in a mathematical universe? I am very interested to investigate the possibilty with you further Of course everyones thoughts are welcome. Thanks again stereologist for your input. It has been a most thought provoking discussion so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquarius Chik Posted September 22, 2015 #14 Share Posted September 22, 2015 (edited) The video was long in my opinion at 8 minutes and 50 seconds. I only watched half of it to verify that I had what I needed. You missed my point. My point is that nothing you stated in the OP suggests a time machine. It suggests that the universe may be mathematical. You seem to agree with that. The video confirms that. That tells me that there is no time-machine. Hmmm.....don't the stars and the planets in the sky help us to tell time? If I'm not mistaken we have all forgotten that sun-dials were once a very ancient fad... I happen to agree with the asker. The universe in and of itself [in some way] is a time machine. It exists for now- but maybe [and likely] not forever. Why? Because I believe that the Big Bang was created by a disappearing black hole. If [in theory] a black hole [that consists of 'nothing' and everything] soaks up all things around it then disappears [as some black holes do] then it would create another Big Bang. The end of the universe, though would probably be a collision between it and another universe out there- probably created by anti-matter instead of matter. The universe is vast and mysterious and lovely...like an endless poet creating the verses of life and landscape into an infinite sea of relativity- which[ by the way] has to do with time. Edited September 22, 2015 by Aquarius Chik 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taniwha Posted September 22, 2015 Author #15 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Hmmm.....don't the stars and the planets in the sky help us to tell time? If I'm not mistaken we have all forgotten that sun-dials were once a very ancient fad... I happen to agree with the asker. The universe in and of itself [in some way] is a time machine. It exists for now- but maybe [and likely] not forever. Why? Because I believe that the Big Bang was created by a disappearing black hole. If [in theory] a black hole [that consists of 'nothing' and everything] soaks up all things around it then disappears [as some black holes do] then it would create another Big Bang. The end of the universe, though would probably be a collision between it and another universe out there- probably created by anti-matter instead of matter. The universe is vast and mysterious and lovely...like an endless poet creating the verses of life and landscape into an infinite sea of relativity- which[ by the way] has to do with time. Well thanks Aquarius Chik, who can deny that the universe moves in mysterious ways? Your thoughts are delightful. " A toast!..." (raise glasses), ".... To the future...!" Cheers 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquarius Chik Posted September 22, 2015 #16 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Why thank you [raises glass] "To infinity and beyond!" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stereologist Posted September 22, 2015 #17 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Yes, thank you. I find this also interesting...if you explore any planet within the game, then any 'reality' you witness is never pre-concieved. It is only constructed by the algorithms once you have reached the point of observation. What exact structures will be expressed no one ever knows, because they are always randomly generated. The algorithms are 'forced' to construct something for you to observe by the very act of you being there to 'observe' it. Entering 'No Mans Sky' is like lifting the lid off schrodingers cat every time you travel deeper into it! In that virtual sense if you ask yourself, "Does a tree fall in the woods when there is nobody around to see it?".... Then the answer will definitely be 'no!' Does this somehow mimics how our own universe might progress? Does it mimic a quantum universe? Food for thought really. Personally I dont think any of this proves or even disproves that the universe is a simulated computer programme, but if it in fact is, then on a very humble scale, 'No Mans Sky' at least might help us to better visualise some of the less complex mathematical concepts functioning behind the scenes. You will need to be a lot more specific on what you mean by a mathematical universe. What is generally accepted in science is that space and time co-exist to form the 4 dimensions known as space-time. Maybe a space-time-math-time continuum is even plausible... it is afterall speculated more than ten dimensions may exist in our universe. Im sorry if im missing your point again. I am not a scientist, just an ordinary guy, but ask yourself ... ... Where does yesterday go to, and where does tomorrow come from? ... Is not the universe the progenitor of space and time? Do you wish to explain how everything thereafter suggests to you that we are in a mathematical universe? I am very interested to investigate the possibilty with you further Of course everyones thoughts are welcome. Thanks again stereologist for your input. It has been a most thought provoking discussion so far. I only watched the first half of the video, but the speaker stated that every time you go back tot he planet you have the same experience. Thus the planet is not randomly generated. Being there to observe it always leads to the same planet. The planet is constructed from rules that describe the planet. At 1:10 he states that the universe is laid out using some sort of random process. That does not mean that it is random after it is laid out. At 2:20 he states that if two people go to the same planet they will see the exact same thing. The planet is not populated by any random structures. It is created from a set of rules that are deterministic. Somehow you got the completely wrong idea about it, and about the meaning of Shroedinger's cat. The program does not in any way describe anything about the mathematics of reality. Terrain generation is a non-physics method of generating images acceptable to humans. At best it expresses something about how the human brain interprets what it sees. A mathematical universe is one in which the behavior of the universe follows rigid mathematical expressions. The question is whether the universe is mathematical or if mathematics is something that is a construct of our minds. Is the math only in our heads or is it the basis for the universe? It is anopen question that has been debated for some time. Here is an example article. It favors the idea that we live in a mathematical universe. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-the-universe-made-of-math-excerpt/ I argue that it means that our universe isn’t just described by math, but that it is math in the sense that we’re all parts of a giant mathematical object If you look into this type of discussion you will see that the issues you used to suggest a time machine are discussed as being pro and con for a mathematical universe. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stereologist Posted September 22, 2015 #18 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Hmmm.....don't the stars and the planets in the sky help us to tell time? If I'm not mistaken we have all forgotten that sun-dials were once a very ancient fad... I happen to agree with the asker. The universe in and of itself [in some way] is a time machine. It exists for now- but maybe [and likely] not forever. Why? Because I believe that the Big Bang was created by a disappearing black hole. If [in theory] a black hole [that consists of 'nothing' and everything] soaks up all things around it then disappears [as some black holes do] then it would create another Big Bang. The end of the universe, though would probably be a collision between it and another universe out there- probably created by anti-matter instead of matter. The universe is vast and mysterious and lovely...like an endless poet creating the verses of life and landscape into an infinite sea of relativity- which[ by the way] has to do with time. We have used the stars and planets to tell time, but that timing is not that good. The reason is that over time we move and that complicates the movement of the objects we observe. Why do you think that something disappearing would create something? A black hole does not suddenly disappear. Black holes can 'evaporate', but that process takes much longer than the lifetime of our universe. http://hubblesite.org/explore_astronomy/black_holes/encyc_mod3_q10.html Our universe may not infinite. It looks like it has a size that is around 91 billion light years across. That's huge, but does it go on forever? Not known. It may not be knowable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarMountainKid Posted September 22, 2015 #19 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I would say the universe is a time machine in that it does evolve from its past to its future, it just takes a while to get there. For example, if you wanted to know, given a set of rules, how the initial state of some system would evolve over time, and you program a model of that system with those rules applied, I suppose this could be called a time machine in this sense. The universe could be considered in this same way. As far as the universe being based on mathematics, is mathematics a perfect mirror of nature? Does there exist God's Book of Perfect Proofs, or is mathematics an incomplete formal system that cannot mirror a natural universe? I also think a universe-as-time-machine would have some purpose. What purpose would it have? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted September 22, 2015 #20 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Well thanks Aquarius Chik, who can deny that the universe moves in mysterious ways? Your thoughts are delightful. " A toast!..." (raise glasses), ".... To the future...!" Cheers Oooo wow ! I never heard the mod version ..... I still luv the old one though 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FTWind Posted September 23, 2015 #21 Share Posted September 23, 2015 There is only one star and eight planets in our universe. I am certain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taniwha Posted September 23, 2015 Author #22 Share Posted September 23, 2015 I only watched the first half of the video, but the speaker stated that every time you go back tot he planet you have the same experience. Thus the planet is not randomly generated. Being there to observe it always leads to the same planet. The planet is constructed from rules that describe the planet. The speaker also mentions that once you leave, then what you were seeing 'leaves' as well. The game memorises how you have interacted directly on the planet, so for example if you levitate a stone from 'here' to 'there', then 'there' is where you will find it on your return visit!?..unless of course someone else has gone to the planet and moved it in your absence...the algorithms adjust and tweak accordingly. The actions you make in the game influence the whole virtual space-time continuum by simply rearranging a mathematical formula. Thats how i decipher it anyway. At 1:10 he states that the universe is laid out using some sort of random process. That does not mean that it is random after it is laid out. At 2:20 he states that if two people go to the same planet they will see the exact same thing. The planet is not populated by any random structures. It is created from a set of rules that are deterministic. All of the worlds, infact the entire gamescapes as far as i can make out anyway, are randomly generated using what is known as procedural generation. Everything you can see is built from single model 'seeds' and mutated by the math to achieve 'infinite' variables. In other words the game designers programme the seed, but the maths is what evolves all of the creations. Not even the game designers know exactly what has been spawned, so they have sent out virtual "drones" to capture images of these alien worlds, to ensure that mathematical variety abounds. Somehow you got the completely wrong idea about it, and about the meaning of Shroedinger's cat. Lol ... I misunderstood the technology and jumped the gun! I guess i was thinking ahead of my time, so if i might make a bold prediction i think a truly Spontaneous Random Generator like how i imagined will be the number-one future giant-leap in gaming or A.I. The program does not in any way describe anything about the mathematics of reality. Terrain generation is a non-physics method of generating images acceptable to humans. At best it expresses something about how the human brain interprets what it sees. Very aptly put sir. Perhaps you have heard of the 'superformula'? This equation was plugged into the game helping to achieve its real life 'vibe'. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superformula A mathematical universe is one in which the behavior of the universe follows rigid mathematical exp<b></b>ressions. The question is whether the universe is mathematical or if mathematics is something that is a construct of our minds. Is the math only in our heads or is it the basis for the universe? It is anopen question that has been debated for some time. Here is an example article. It favors the idea that we live in a mathematical universe. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-the-universe-made-of-math-excerpt/ If you look into this type of discussion you will see that the issues you used to suggest a time machine are discussed as being pro and con for a mathematical universe. You raise some interesting questions stereologist. I will look into your link. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FTWind Posted September 23, 2015 #23 Share Posted September 23, 2015 (edited) There is only one star and eight planets in our universe. I am certain. Like I have said before, how can you come up with an answer when you don't have all the variables. Edited September 23, 2015 by FTWind 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stereologist Posted September 23, 2015 #24 Share Posted September 23, 2015 The speaker also mentions that once you leave, then what you were seeing 'leaves' as well. The game memorises how you have interacted directly on the planet, so for example if you levitate a stone from 'here' to 'there', then 'there' is where you will find it on your return visit!?..unless of course someone else has gone to the planet and moved it in your absence...the algorithms adjust and tweak accordingly. The actions you make in the game influence the whole virtual space-time continuum by simply rearranging a mathematical formula. Thats how i decipher it anyway. All of the worlds, infact the entire gamescapes as far as i can make out anyway, are randomly generated using what is known as procedural generation. Everything you can see is built from single model 'seeds' and mutated by the math to achieve 'infinite' variables. In other words the game designers programme the seed, but the maths is what evolves all of the creations. Not even the game designers know exactly what has been spawned, so they have sent out virtual "drones" to capture images of these alien worlds, to ensure that mathematical variety abounds. Lol ... I misunderstood the technology and jumped the gun! I guess i was thinking ahead of my time, so if i might make a bold prediction i think a truly Spontaneous Random Generator like how i imagined will be the number-one future giant-leap in gaming or A.I. Very aptly put sir. Perhaps you have heard of the 'superformula'? This equation was plugged into the game helping to achieve its real life 'vibe'. https://en.m.wikiped...ki/Superformula You raise some interesting questions stereologist. I will look into your link. Thanks. The fact that the planet can be tossed away and reconstructed exactly as before simply reveals that the rules are deterministic, not random. There is nothing random about the process. Everything about the planet is deterministic. The idea of random is often confused. Random means not being predictable. But the planets are predictable in every way. The look of the planet is predetermined. A way to produce so many different planets is to produce a method of construction. That method might use what is usually called a random number generator. Such methods always produce the same sequence of values in a computer given the same starting values. By seeding the generators with the same values each time the construction programs create the same planet. The code called a random number generator is not a random process. It is simply spewing a predictable sequence of numbers which do not appear at first to be predictable, but they are. Thanks for pointing me to the superformula. I had not seen that before. I've used other methods to generate profiles. I think StarMountainKid's post is good. Is the universe mathematical or are we able to model the universe with varying degrees of correctness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted September 23, 2015 #25 Share Posted September 23, 2015 I sometimes wonder if we're looking at the after image of the universe and were the last to go. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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