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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


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#4846    Knul

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 05:03 PM

Here is the full text of the scans, which I have produced earlier.

Bron: E. Molenaar, Het Geheimzinnige Handschrift van de Familie Over de Linden. Feiten en gegevens omtrent herkomst en voorgeschiedenis van 'Het Oera Linda Boek'. Bussum, Uitgeversmaatschappij C.A. J. van Dishoeck, 1949. De naam van uitgeverij Pasman te Utrecht is met een strookje papier overgeplakt met de naam van Uitgeverij van Dishoeck te Bussum.
p.5
Voorwoord
De feiten en gegevens omtrent de herkomst en de voorgeschiedenis van het Oera Linda Boek, die in dit geschrift in een nieuw groepsverband zijn bijeengebracht, werden ontleend aan de onderstaande publicaties:
J. Beckering Vinckers: 'Wie heeft het Oera Linda Boek geschreven ? (Kampen, 1877).
L.F. over de Linden: Beweerd, maar niet bewezen' (H. Kuipers, Leeuwarden, 1877) en Aanvulling van de Brochure 'Beweerd, maar niet bewezen' (C. de Boer Jr., Helder, 1912).
Dr. M. de Jong Hzn.: 'Het geheim van het Oera Linda Boek' (A.J. Osinga; Bolsward, 1927).
Mr. P.C.J.A. Boeles: 'De auteur van het Oera Linda Boek' ('De Vrije Fries', jaargang 1928).
Enige inlichtingen zijn nog verkregen van de Gemeente-Archivaris van Enkhuizen, wijlen de heer D. Brouwer, terwijl van de heer C. over de Linden te Amsterdam nauwkeurige afschriften werden ontvangen van alle aanwezige bescheiden (uit de periode voor en tijdens de vertaling van het handschrift van het Oera Linda Boek), behorende tot de correspondentie-verzameling van de familie Over de Linden, thans berustende bij de Provinciale Bibliotheek te Leeuwarden.
Ook werd toestemming gevraagd en verkregen, tot het opnemen (als Bijlage I) van een foto van het Wapen van de familie Over de Linden, met de zinspreuk 'Waak'.
Toegevoegd zijn bovendien Bijlage II en III bestaande uit:
de authentieke tekst van de beide eerste bladzijden van het handschrift van het Oera Linda Boek (in foto-copie), met daarnaast deze tekst in modern letterschrift, benevens de Nederlandse vertaling van Dr. J.G. Ottema.
De gehele authentieke tekst (ruim 200 blz. foto-copie) met vertaling toe te voegen moest, wegens de kosten, achterwege gelaten worden.
p.6
citaten
p.7.
Hoofdstuk I
(1)
In Augustus 1948 was het honderd jaar geleden, dat de toen 37-jarige Cornelis over de Linden, scheepstimmerman eerste klasse aan 's Rijks Marinewerf te Den Helder, met zijn oudste zoon, de 13-jarige kwekeling Cornelis een reisje maakte naar Enkhuizen om aldaar een bezoek te brengen aan zijn moeder (weduwe van Jan over de Linden) en aan zijn gehuwde tante Aafje (dochter van de in 1820 overleden Andries over de Linden). Een gewoon familie-bezoek dus, waaraan de herinnering reeds lang verloren zou zijn gegaan, ware het niet dat deze beide reizigers bij hun terugkeer uit Enkhuizen naar Den Helder in het bezit waren van een pakket geschriften van zeer buitengewone inhoud.
In dit pakket werden door Cornelis over de Linden en zijn zoon aanwezig bevonden een groot en een klein handschrift. Het eerste (waarvan het begin Latijn en het verdere -grootste - gedeeelte Oud-Hollands) werd later herkend als een zeldzaam voorkomend afschrift van 'De Kroniek van Friesland' van Worp van Thabor, terwijl het kleinere handschrift, geschreven in de oud-Friese taal met een onbekend letterschrift, later door de vertaling van Dr. J.G. Ottema bekend zou worden als 'Het Oera Linda Boek'.
Over de ouderdom, echtheid en herkomst van dit laatste handschrift is sindsdien veel geschreven en wordt nog steeds gestreden, waarbij de critiek wel vaak het hoogste woord heeft gevoerd, doch waarover het laatste beslissende woord niet is gesproken. Het Oera-Linda-boek-vraagstuk is nog altijd een onopgelost probleem.
De herdenking van de bovenvermelde, voor de familie Over de Linden zo belangrijke gebeurtenis in Augustus 1848, waaraan tot nog toe slechts wenig aandacht is geschonken, is daarom een gerede aanleiding en biedt een goede gelegenheid, thans eens meer nauwlettend na te gaan, of er ook aanwijzingen te vinden zijn of uitlatingen bekend zijn geworden, die de aanwezigheid van oude geschriften in de Enkhuizer familie Over de Linden bevestigen.
Daartoe is het wenselijk te onderzoeken:
1) Welke gegevens bekend zijn of alsnog gevonden kunnen worden, die aantonen dat bedoelde geschriften voor 1848 in Enkhuizen aanwezig waren;
2) Van welk familielid Cornelis over de Linden in 1848 het pakket oude geschriften kan hebben ontvangen;
p.8.
3) Of Cornelis over de Linden wel gerechtigd was deze oude familiepapieren in ontvangst te nemen en ze voortaan als zijn eigendom te beschouwen.
Over de Enkhuizer familie Over de Linden is een en ander bekend geworden, dat ongetwijfeld van belang is.
In de ter beschikking staande gegevens kan men niet verder teruggaan dan die, welke melding maken van Jan over de Linden (overgrootvader van Cornelis uit Den Helder). Hij heeft zich, vermoedelijk uit Friesland komende, te Enkhuizen gevestigd en schijnt uit hoofde van zijn ambt als Jan de Diender bekend gestaan te hebben; zijn geboortedatum en -jaar zijn onbekend gebleven. Zijn zoon Andries, geboren te Enkhuizen in het jaar 1759, van beroep scheepstimmermansbaas, had drie kinderen. Antje, Aaltje en Jan.
Antje heeft de ouderlijke woning verlaten, trouwde, maar bleef in Enkhuizen wonen. Toen Aafje trouwde met Hendrik Reuvers, bleef zij met haar man bij haar vader inwonen in de grote koepel met tuin aan de Rietdijk (tegenwoordig Vijzelstraat) te Enkhuizen, die aan haar vader toebehoorde. Ook hun dochter Cornelia Reuvers met haar man en hun zoon Hein Kofman hebben hun leven lang in dit huis gewoond. Laatstgenoemde is er geboren 11 Februari 1853 en er gestorven op 15 Januari 1933.
De vermelding van deze gegevens geschiedt in verband met latere verklaringen van Cornelia Reuvers (Wed. Keetje Kofman) en van haar zoon Hein Kofman betreffende oude geschriften vanm de familie Over de Linden te Enkhuizen, die in de voorvaderlijke woning aan de Rietdijk aanwezig zijn geweest en door Cornelis zijn meegenomen naar Den Helder.
De zoon van Andries, genaamd Jan en van beroep scheepstimmerman, had een luchthartige en rusteloze natuur. Hij trok van de ene plaats naar de andere al naar hij werk vond. Hij had een zoon, Cornelis, die in 1811 te Enkhuizen werd geboren. Grootvader Andries hield veel van zijn kleinzoon, daar hij de enige stamhouder was. Deze deelde naderhand mede, dat zijn grootvader, als hij daar soms logeerde en zij heel vertrouwelijk tezamen waren, hem dan steeds voorhield, dat hij nooit moest vergeten, dat hun familie van zuiver Fries bloed was en hem toezei later, als hij wat ouder geworden was, hem dat wel eens te zullen uitleggen. Dit is niet geschied. Toen Andries over de Linden (15 April 1820) op 61-jarige leeftijd, overleed, was zijn kleinzoon Cornelis nog maar een kind van 9 jaar.
Evenals grootvader Andries was ook de vader van Cornelis vol van zijn oude Friese afkomst, zoals blijkt uit een later bekend geworden mededeling van de heer C. Wijs, die als volgt luidt:
'In het jaar 1831 bevond ik mij aan boord van het korvet
p.9
'Nehalennia' (commandant, de kapitein ter zee Rijk *) op de Schelde voor het fort Marie. Ik was op genoemden bodem schoolmeester en ziekentrooster. Daarop bevond zich ook de scheepstimmerman Jan over de Linden, die er in vroolijke buien dikwijls op pochte, dat hij van den oudsten stam ter wereld was en bij zulke gelegenheden de spot dreef met den adel. Ik ben slechts een goed half jaar op het korvet geweest en heb Jan over de Linden uit het oog verloren. Van boeken of geschriften heeft hij nooit gesproken.'
Deze Jan, geboren te Enkhuizen op 20 Juni 1787, overleed op 23 Juni 1835 aan boord van Z.M. Wachtschip 'Euridice'.
Grootvader Andries, die blijkbaar zijn zoon Jan wel in kennis heeft gesteld met de in zijn familie levende traditie aangaande haar oude Friese afkomst, maar hem nkundig liet van het bestaan van hierop betrekking hebbende oude geschriften, heeft deze laatste ook niet aan zijn zoon nagelaten, daar hij ze hem wegens zijn onverschilligheid niet toevetrouwde. Ook de oudere zuster Antje, in 1876 nog in leven, heeft van het bestaan van het erfstuk nooit kennis gedragen.
Andries over de Linden, die met de inhoud van het familieboek en met de opdracht tot geheimhouding en instandhouding door overerving aan het nageslacht en eventueel zonodig door overschrijving, blijkbaar meer op de hoogte was dan algemeen bekend geworden is, heeft de oude geschriften in het bezit van zijn inwonende dochter Aafje gesteld, met opdracht ze later aan zijn kleinzoon en stamhouder Cornelis ter hand te stellen. Aan deze opdracht heeft zij ook gevolg gegeven, echter eerst in het jaar 1848.
De oorzaak van deze late overdracht is ook bekend. De echtgenoot van Aafje, Hendrik Reuvers, heeft zich tijdens zijn leven steeds ertegen verzet, dat zijn vrouw de oude familiepapieren, overeenkomstig haars vaders wil, aan Cornelis overdroeg. In 1845 stierf Reuvers; een paar jaar later hertrouwde zij met Koops Meijlhoff, die zij van de aanwezigheid van de oude papieren onkundig liet. Zij overleed te Enkhuizen op 4 Februari 1849.
Dat het pakket oude geschriften, waarmede Cornelis over de Linden en zijn zoon in 1848 na een bezoek aan de Enkhuizer familie naar Den Helder terugkeerden, aanwezig is geweest in de voorouderlijke woning van zijn familie aldaar, wordt bevestigd door verschillende zgslieden die, of uit eigen herinnering of als resultaat van een ingesteld onderzoek, enige feiten of bijzonderheden betreffende deze familie te Enkhuizen hebben vermeld, die gepubliceerd werden.
Deze gegevens zijn de volgende:
A. Het resultaat van een onderzoek, ingesteld in 1876, door de heer Knuivers te Enkhuizen, omtrent de familie Over de Lin-
p.10
den aldaar en het toen reeds als het Oera Linda Boek bekend geworden handschrift van Cornelis over de Linden (die inmiddels op 22 Februari 1874 overleden was).
Voor dit onderzoek wendde de heer Knuivers zich tot de nog levende afstammelingen van Andries. Oude mannelijke afstammelingen van deze laatste bestonden er niet meer in Enkhuizen, maar wel een dochter van 80 jaar (Antje) en deze had nooit iets van het handschrift vernomen. Wel had de weduwe Keetje Kofman (dochter van Hendrik Reuvers en Aafje o/d L.) er van gehoord. Deze weuwe woonde in het stamhuis van de ene tak van de O.d.Linden's en buiten twijffel' zoo luidt het bericht is hier het handschrift bewaard in een hoek, met stof bedekt. Hoelang het handschrift daar gelegen heeft, wanneer het naar Den Helder is overgebracht, dit wist niemend te vertellen, waar ik ook aanklopte en welke moeite ik overigens aanwendde'.
B. Een mededeling van de Heer Munnik (getrouwd met een voordochter van Cornelis over de Linden's eerste vrouw). Hij vertelt het volgende:
'In 1845 (een jaar voor mijn trouwen) deden C. over de Linden, de boekbinder Stadermann en ik samen een toertje (naar Enkhuizen). Wij kwamen bij een oude schipper, waar Over de Linden's moeder huishoudster was. C. o.d. L.  sprak alleen met zijn moeder en den oude en zeide toen wij weer buiten Enkhuizen waren: 'Het is toch een bedonderd werk; die oude heeft een oud boek van ons en wil het niet loslaten. Daaruit blijkt dat onze familie oud is'; verder zoo vertelt M. sprak hij over boschrijke streken zoveel als een heerlijkheid, van landstreken, lindeboomen enz. 'Doch het is oud-Friesch'; daar (zoo zei C. o.d. L.) zit de bl....
Zoo heeft hij wel een paar jaar loopen brommen (van 1845-1847), doch was intusschen begonnen oud-Friesch te leeren'
(degene, bij wie o.d. Linden om het oude boek vroeg, zal niet de man zijn geweest, bij wie zijn moeder huishoudster was, maar Reuvers, de man van tante Aafje, die zij ook bezocht zullen hebben).
C. In een ingezonden stuk in de Friesche Courant van 30 April 1877 deelde de heer M.K. de Jong, hoofd der school te Kooten mede, dat, toen de kwestie van het Oera Linda Boek behandeld werd in de dorps-ontwikkelingsclub 'De Hervorming', een dorpsgenoot, wiens waarheidsliefde boven alle twijffel stond, daar verklaarde, dat zijn oom Leendert over de Linden hem ongeveer 40 jaar geleden (dus ongeveer 1837) al had veteld, dat er nog heel oude geschriften onder de familie Over de Linden berustende waren.
D. Een schrijven van de heer D. Brouwer, Gemeente-Archivaris van Enkhuizen aan schrijver dezes d.d. 26 October 1939, van de volgende inhoud:
'Naar aanleiding van Uw verzoek inzake de mogelijkheid, dat het handschrift omstreeks 1848 reeds in het bezit moet zijn
p.10
geweest van de familie Over de Linden te Enkhuizen, moet ik U mededelen, dat daaromtrent geen authentieke stukken hier aanwezig zijn, welke zulks zouden kunnen bevestigen.
1) Een lid der familie O. d. L. hier nog woonachtig, verzekerde mij, dat het manuscript voor 1850 berustte bij een ander lid van de familie, wonende in de Vijzelstraat, Cornelis o. d. Linden, die midden 19de eeuw werkzaam was op de Marinewerf te Den Helder, is geboren te Enkhuizen en heeft van zijn tante (Aafje) het handschrift overgenomen.
2) Een oud timmerman, H. Kofman (kleinzoon van Aafje), die zijn leven lang na de weduwe Kofman-Reuvers het bedoelde huis in de Vijzelstraat heeft bewoond, vertelde mij meermalen, dat het pakket, bevattende de stukken van het Oera Linda Boek, in het huis aanwezig is geweest; zelfs wees hij de plaats aan waar het had gelegen, voor het door Cornelis o/d L. was meegenomen naar Den Helder.'
E. Eeen ingezonden stuk in de Enkhuizer Courant van 9 Januari 1934 van een oud-ingezetene van Enkhuizen, de heer Hajo Last te Bussum (aldaar overleden in 1934 op 83-jarige leeftijd), waarin hij o.a. mededeelde gewerkt te hebben met Hein Kofman (kleinzoon van Aafje) en hem eens gevraagd te hebben naar de geschriften, die bij zijn moeder (dochter van Aafje) vandaan zijn gekomen. Hein Kofman zei toen tegen hem: 'Neef Over de Linsden heeft ze gestolen van mijn moeder'.
Neen. Hein Kofman, neef Cornelis heeft ze niet gestolen van je moeder; je grootmoeder had die geschriften in bewaring gekregen van haar vader Andries over de Linden, met opdracht ze te doen toekomen aan diens kleinzoon en stamhouder Cornelis en hieraan heeft zij gevolg gegeven.
Uit alles wat hierboven vermeld is, blijkt:
1) dat het handschrift van het veelomstreden Oera Linda Boek voor 1848 aanwezig is geweest in Enkhuizen, in de voorouderlijke woning aan de Vijzelstraat;
2) dat tante Aafje in Augustus 1848, bij een bezoek van Cornelis over de Linden en zijn zoon, de oude familiepapieren aan hem, volgens opdracht van haar vader Andries, overhandigd heeft;
3) dat Cornelis over de Linden deze oude geschriften als rechtmatige erfgenaam van zijn grootvader, in bezit heeft genomen.

Note: In my opinion there is no reference to the small Oera Linda Boek at all, but to  the Worp of Thabor, which was as voluminous as a Statenbijbel. The letters of Cornelis over de Linden to Eelco Verwijs show, that Over de Linden did not understand the text at all and that he got interested in it only, when Eelco Verwijs told him, that the small booklet dealt with his family history. Apparently he then was afraid, that the book would contain negative information about the family. From that moment on he required a translation, eventually in exchange to the Worp of Thabor free of charge. As soon as he heard about family matters, he refused to send the originals pages, but copied the signs ...  and so on.  Please read the complete correspondance (in Dutch) between Over de Linden and Verwijs on my website: www.rodinbook.nl. Besides Ernest Stadermann is mentioned in 1845 only. As an experienced bookbinder of antiquarian books and bibles he certainly knew the value of the Worp of Thabor and may have influenced Cornelis over de Linden to claim the book as part of the inheritance. The Worp disappeared later on. I just wonder, if Stadermann's son bookseller Heinz Adalbert plays a role in it.

Knul


#4847    Alewyn

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 07:05 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 12 May 2011 - 04:58 PM, said:

Wait a minute: the OLB disaster started in 2193 BC and lasted for 3 years.

According to Harvey Weiss the disaster/climatic changes already started between 2254 and 2218 BC, but yes, then after 2193 BC there started a period of anarchy.

I did some reading, and the area affected appears to be somewhat in one line: Egypt, Sumer/Akkad, Indus:True, this was not known in the 19th century, but what have you found about what happened all over ancient Europe at the same time?

For I understand that it's about Frya's land (Europe) that we talk about concerning these disasters.

.
You forgot to mention the Hong Shan culture in China, North Africa’s desertification, the shrinking and eventual disappearance of the Mega Lakes after 2200 BC, your Delfzijl megalithic tombs that was covered with mud since 2200 BC, etc. etc.

Also check this site:
http://www.sciencedi...64&searchtype=a

Evidence of high-energy events in the geological record: Mid-holocene evolution of the southwestern Doñana National Park (SW Spain)

“ In the first period of the third phase ( 5200–4200 cal. years BP), estuarine infilling was probably the dominant process, with the accumulation of phyllosilicate-rich clays in the lagoon bed. This was followed by a renewed phase of instability ( 4200–4100 cal. years BP) indicated by the presence of fine storm-lain deposits and thicker, probably tsunami-induced shelly deposits.”


#4848    Abramelin

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 08:08 PM

View PostAlewyn, on 12 May 2011 - 07:05 PM, said:

You forgot to mention the Hong Shan culture in China, North Africa’s desertification, the shrinking and eventual disappearance of the Mega Lakes after 2200 BC, your Delfzijl megalithic tombs that was covered with mud since 2200 BC, etc. etc.

Also check this site:
http://www.sciencedi...64&searchtype=a

Evidence of high-energy events in the geological record: Mid-holocene evolution of the southwestern Doñana National Park (SW Spain)

“ In the first period of the third phase ( 5200–4200 cal. years BP), estuarine infilling was probably the dominant process, with the accumulation of phyllosilicate-rich clays in the lagoon bed. This was followed by a renewed phase of instability ( 4200–4100 cal. years BP) indicated by the presence of fine storm-lain deposits and thicker, probably tsunami-induced shelly deposits.”

The Delfzijl megalithic tombs were covered with mud... GRADUALLY.

No signs of any catastrophic events here around 2200 BC, Alewyn.


You could make a case for 3000 BC as easy as you can create a case for 2200 BC.

--
And all I want is proof all this happened in 2200 BC, in Europe. That's volcanoes erupting, lands submerging, lands rising, mountains crumbling down, mountains rising up, rivers diverting their course, wildfires all over the place.

And that place is.. EUROPE, for THAT area is what the OLB is talkinmg about.

.



==


"In the first period of the third phase ( 5200–4200 cal. years BP)".

That is a THOUSAND YEARS !! Hello?


.

Edited by Abramelin, 12 May 2011 - 08:52 PM.


#4849    cormac mac airt

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 08:19 PM

Quote

Now for once, do you or don't you agree that all the events around the 2200 BC event happened at the same time?

No, they didn’t all happen at the same time, meaning specifically your 2193 BC date.

Quote

If you do, then we can go to the next FACT. Professor Harvey Weiss, after some 26 years of work, declared that the Akkadian Empire came to fall in 2193 BC.


Actually what he said was this:

Quote

the conclusions were based on tests of soils mainly at the sites of three Akkadian cities within a 30-mile radius, places now known as Tell Leilan, Tell Mozan and Tell Brak in present-day Syria. Evidence of similar climate change was found in adjacent regions, and the archeologist said further tests of the theory would be conducted with the resumption of field work this week.

And for years archeologists puzzled over the 300-year gap in human occupation of Tell Leilan and neighboring towns, beginning in 2200 B.C.

One of the first discoveries was a half-inch layer of volcanic ash covering the rooftops of buildings at Tell Leilan in 2200 B.C. All ash falls leave distinctive chemical signatures. An analysis by Dr. Guichard traced the likely source of this potassium-rich ash to volcanoes a few hundred miles away in present-day Turkey.

Collapse of Earliest Known Empire Is Linked to Long, Harsh Drought

So even in Professor Weiss’ own words in the original article he made no claim to the specific date of 2193 BC. Nor does he do so at the Tell Leilan Project website. And again, a couple of cities in Northern Mesopotamia DO NOT comprise the entirety of the Akkadian Empire.

Tell Leilan Project

Also a volcanic eruption in Anatolia is not evidenced as responsible for the end of the Old Kingdom in Egypt. Nor did the droughts that concluded the Old Kingdom happen in 2193 or even 2200 BC, but happened c.2160 BC.

Quote

Historical records show that the Old Kingdom in Egypt continued successfully
until 2160 B.C.
(4160 cal yr B.P.; Kitchen, 1991) when it quite suddenly collapsed into
anarchy (Bell, 1971). It has been suggested that this was due, in large part, to catastrophic
failure of the annual Nile flood for a period of 30 years. This was apparently
followed by a second, shorter 10-year period of drought starting in 2020 B.C. (4020
cal yr B.P.).

Source:  Short Contribution: Nile Flow Failure at the End of the Old Kingdom, Egypt: Strontium Isotopic and Petrologic Evidence

The Hongshan Culture ended c. 2900 BC/3000 BC, well before the 2193/2200 BC date, which Swede mentioned here months ago.

As to the desertification of North Africa:

Quote

Radiocarbon data from 150 archaeological excavations in the now hyper-arid Eastern Sahara of
Egypt, Sudan, Libya, and Chad reveal close links between climatic variations and prehistoric
occupation during the past 12,000 years. Synoptic multiple-indicator views for major time slices
demonstrate the transition from initial settlement after the sudden onset of humid conditions at
8500 B.C.E. to the exodus resulting from gradual desiccation since 5300 B.C.E. Southward shifting
of the desert margin helped trigger the emergence of pharaonic civilization along the Nile,
influenced the spread of pastoralism throughout the continent, and affects sub-Saharan Africa to
the present day.

And

Quote

The Regionalization phase (5300 to 3500 B.C.E.) is characterized by the retreat of
populations to ecological refuges such as the Gilf Kebir plateau, seasonal or episodic transhumance, and a
marked migration into the Sudanese Sahara.

So at the latest, the dates are 1300 years prior to the 2193/2200 date and therefore not relevant to this discussion.

Source:  Climate-Controlled Holocene Occupation in the Sahara:  Motor of Africa’s Evolution (www.sciencemag.org; SCIENCE VOL 313; 11 AUGUST 2006)

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 12 May 2011 - 08:20 PM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#4850    Abramelin

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 08:55 PM

The creators of the OLB got the 2194 BC date from a Frisian almanac, like Otharus and I showed you several times.

You better start admiring those writers of the almanac, lol.

Their almanacs were published decades before the OLB was published.

That is physical proof, the rest is just gossip and hearsay.

I can as easily publish some 'ancient' manuscript, and claim that it is a copy of a 5000 years old manuscript.

I have actually been thinking of creating those lost pages of the OLB... really.

And then send them to a Polish guy I know, and tell him to tell the press he found it in the ruins of a Polish monastery.

Just to see how far I could get with it.

Believe me, I know how to do it.

I have paper, centuries old, and I know how to make 'old ink'.

The more I think of it, the more I think I should give it a try.

Of course, I will wait for a couple of years to publish it (or my Polish friend). When you all forgot about it, suddenly an article in a Polish or Russian newspaper wil appear, announcing the discovery of an ancient document.


--

My problem would be if something like I announced just now would show up in a few months from now.

You can bet - everyone of you - that there are people around who think like I do, and think it was me.

And some may have been busy for 10 years, and publish their creation a few months from now. I know that you will think it was me, and I ill have a really hard time denying it.

But it's possible, people.

A forgery needs time, determination, knowledge of the language used, knowledge of popular legends for the time and people we are focussing upon, and knowledge of the way to make documents look old.


I really feel challenged...

.

Edited by Abramelin, 12 May 2011 - 09:23 PM.


#4851    The Puzzler

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 10:33 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 12 May 2011 - 04:21 PM, said:

Heh, but a chain is as strong as it weakest shackle:


madam comes from Latin: mea domina

++

EDIT:

Lol, no problems with having fun at all: I 'found out' this morning that the, ahem... etymology of Jadebusen is "worn out old mare drinking to excess".

.
Your missing my point. Where did Latin come from - don't say Greek. madam is nothing more than my dame, my lady, but what is my dame? It's really relative to DAM - mother shield.

People were in Latium, they had a life before the Greeks turned up.

In fact, their life revolved around lamps, hearths, Virgin maidens, so I would expect to find the language of the OLB in Latium prior to it's change, that is, from Etruscan - Latin words to Greek Latin words.

Did mea domina go into Latin from Northern Europe as my dam first - then it was changed so it comes out all fancy as mea domina?

I keep seeing a pattern of French and Frisian.

The same thing applies to Phoenicia - the language of the OLB could be the base for Phoenician and Latin.


You can tell me then, how to get domina from mistress. Domina is dam. The Latin did get their words from somewhere, they didn't make them up, the base for their words is where you stop - it comes from Latin ....and what? That seems to be good enough to accept - you don't think their own words are actually derived from words the same as most other IE languages...?

Lyda = Le (French the) da (dam)

The Dam - that is the Matriarch.

--------------

In a roundabout way I just told you this same thing -

Dominus is the Latin word for master or owner. As a title of sovereignty the term under the Roman Republic had all the associations of the Greek Tyrannos; refused during the early principate, it finally became an official title of the Roman Emperors under Diocletian (this is where the term dominate, used to describe a political system of Roman Empire in 284-476, is derived from). Dominus, the French equivalent being "sieur", was the Latin title of the feudal, superior and mesne, lords, and also an ecclesiastical and academical title. The ecclesiastical title was rendered in English "sir", which was a common prefix before the Reformation for parsons,

o is for male a is for female - like Maria and Mario.

Edited by The Puzzler, 12 May 2011 - 10:50 PM.

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#4852    The Puzzler

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 11:23 PM

Read who was in Latium first:

Before the Indo-European tribes reached central Italy, Latium was possessed by a race of unknown origin,2 men of short stature and dark complexion, who had not yet learned the use of metallic implements. They are usually classed as members of the Mediterranean race. The Indo-European invaders began to enter Italy from the north and east during the third millennium B.C., and continued to come in wave after wave until they mastered the greater part of Italy. In the marshes of the Po valley the sites of the earlier of these immigrants can still be identified in the peculiarly formed "terremare" or "pile-dwelling." From a some what later period date the "Villanova" cemeteries of Umbria and Tuscany, which have yielded archæologists so rich a fund of treasure. It was doubtless a branch of this immigrating race which took possession of Latium some time before the millennium that ended with the birth of Christ.
http://en.wikisource...Rome_and_Latium

We have the little dark Med. people.

Then the INDO EUROPEAN invaders came in from the NORTH and east during the 3RD MILLENIUM BC.

They lived in PILE DWELLINGS.


People from the North who lived on pile dwellings were in Latium after the indigenous Meds. in the 3rd millenium BC.

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#4853    The Puzzler

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 11:36 PM

It is not known when the last eruption of Ararat occurred; there are no historic or recent observations of large-scale activity recorded. It seems that Ararat was active in the 3rd millennium BC; under the pyroclastic flows, artifacts from the early Bronze Age and remains of human bodies have been found.
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Mount_Ararat

An interesting Wiki site: Timelines of environmental history - http://en.wikipedia....nmental_history

Edited by The Puzzler, 13 May 2011 - 12:01 AM.

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#4854    The Puzzler

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 12:06 AM

"Davis (1996) has reminded us of Clube and Napier's impact theory, and asked 'Where is the archaeological and geological evidence for the role of their 'Taurid Demons' in human history? The abrupt climate change at 2200 BC, regardless of an improbable impact explanation, situates hemispheric social collapse in a global, but ultimately cosmic, context." [Harvey Weiss: Late Third Millennium Abrupt Climate Change and Social Collapse in West Asia and Egypt. In: H Dalfes, G Kukla, H Weiss (eds.) Third Millennium BC Climate Change and Old World Collapse. Heidelberg/Berlin: Springer Verlag 1997, p. 719/20]
  
During the last two decades, researchers have discovered compelling evidence for abrupt climate change and civilization collapse in addition to sea level changes, catastrophic inundations and widespread seismic activity in many areas of the world at around 2200/2300 BC. Climatological proxy data together with sudden changes in lacustrine, fluvial and aeolian deposits have been detected in the archaeological, geological and climatological records. The most comprehensive survey of this particular climate disaster which coincided with (and most likely caused) the collapse of mankind's first urban civilizations can be found in the above mentioned volume on "Third Millennium BC Climate Change and Old World Collapse." Although there is still considerable disagreement about the "absolute" date of this catastrophe, a growing number of scholars agree that we are indeed dealing with an abrupt natural disaster with devastating effects on civilizations in West Asia, Europe and North Africa, but which was perhaps a global event.
  
When, between 1980 and 1988, the Society for Interdisciplinary Studies (SIS) published Moe Mandelkehr's pioneering research papers on archaeological, geological and climatological evidence for global climate and social catastrophes at around 2300 BC, Moe had gathered more than 350 references to back up his hypothesis with scientific data.
  
Now, almost 20 years later, 40 researchers from around the world have compiled the a.m. volume on the same event(s), analyzing and summarizing some 1700 references on abrupt climate change and social collapse around 4200/4300 BP.


http://www.zetatalk....rd/tword04m.htm

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#4855    The Puzzler

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 12:54 AM

Hundreds of years after the event, a cuneiform collection of "prodigies," omen predictions of the collapse of Akkad, preserved the record that "many stars were falling from the sky"
http://www.zetatalk....rd/tword04m.htm

This sounds like the term Aristotle uses as though he is aware of this record of events and he is describing the Phaethon event in his telling of this.

Wiki says: In Aristotle's Meteorology, Aristotle says, "...the stars...fell from heaven at the time of Phaethon's downfall."

Aristotle ACTUALLY says:

Let us now explain the origin, cause, and nature of the milky way. And here too let us begin by discussing the statements of others on the subject.

(1) Of the so-called Pythagoreans some say that this is the path of one of the stars that fell from heaven at the time of Phaethon's downfall. Others say that the sun used once to move in this circle and that this region was scorched or met with some other affection of this kind, because of the sun and its motion.

http://classics.mit....rology.1.i.html

Mention of great destruction in Achaea too...
The great comet which appeared at the time of the earthquake in Achaea and the tidal wave rose due west; and many have been known to appear in the south. Again in the archonship of Euclees, son of Molon, at Athens there appeared a comet in the north in the month Gamelion, the sun being about the winter solstice. Yet they themselves admit that reflection over so great a space is an impossibility.

Actually this Part 1 of Meteorology by Aristotle is really interesting, because they really don't know yet how alot of phenomenon is produced properly yet and Aristotle attemps to find out more.


According to Clement of Alexandria in his Stromata, "...in the time of Crotopus occurred the burning of Phaethon, and the deluges of Deucalion

I believe the stories of Phoroneus also tie in with the time of Crotopus and the flood of Deucalion...

In Greek mythology, Phoroneus (Φορωνεύς) was a culture-hero of the Argolid, fire-bringer, primordial king of Argos and son of the river god Inachus and either Melia, the primordial ash-tree nymph[1] or Argia, the embodiment of the Argolid itself: "Inachus, son of Oceanus, begat Phoroneus[2] by his sister Argia," wrote Hyginus, in Fabulae 143. Hyginus' genealogy expresses the position of Phoroneus as one[3] of the primordial men, whose local identities differed in the various regions of Greece,[4] and who had for a mother the essential spirit of the very earth of Argos herself, Argia. He was the primordial king in the Peloponnesus, authorized by Zeus: "Formerly Zeus himself had ruled over men, but Hermes created a confusion of human speech, which spoiled Zeus' pleasure in this Rule".[5] Phoroneus introduced both the worship of Hera and the use of fire and the forge.[6] Poseidon and Hera had vied for the land: when the primeval waters had receded, Phoroneus "was the first to gather the people together into a community; for they had up to then been living as scattered and lonesome families".


Phoroneus is the first man mentioned in Timaeus. He introduced fire, the forge (metalwork) and Hera.

The primeval waters receeding would have been the flood waters from the same deluge mentioned, the time of Crotopus.

It appears that Phoroneus with Hera and metal working arrived in Greece just after the Flood - he was seen as the first man who was in control after the people got back on their feet, from the flooding (of Deucalion).

Hermes created a confusion of speech because new people with different language arrived on the scene.

Edited by The Puzzler, 13 May 2011 - 01:46 AM.

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#4856    Otharus

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 01:26 AM

View PostKnul, on 12 May 2011 - 05:03 PM, said:

Here is the full text of the scans, which I have produced earlier.

Bron: E. Molenaar, Het Geheimzinnige Handschrift van de Familie Over de Linden.
Can you please post or mail the rest too? I would love to study it.

Quote

Note: In my opinion there is no reference to the small Oera Linda Boek at all, but to  the Worp of Thabor, which was as voluminous as a Statenbijbel.
The "Worp of Thabor" was in Latin and old-Dutch (hence not in "strange language" or "strange script") and it was not about the Over de Linden family. Therefore the W.T. does not match with the witness reports (1,2,3,5) summarized in post #4830.

Quote

The letters of Cornelis over de Linden to Eelco Verwijs show, that Over de Linden did not understand the text at all and that he got interested in it only, when Eelco Verwijs told him, that the small booklet dealt with his family history.
I suppose he feigned innocence and naivety, to avoid appearing too eager. He will indeed not have understood the text himself, but apparently he had heard things about it, even before he obtained it in 1848 (ancient family history, royal domains with Linden trees, etcetera).

I read (don't remember where at the moment) that he initially believed that the book contained information about a family treasure, which would explain why he was so eager to get it (1845-1848) and why he waited so long asking for help with the translation.

~ ~ ~

Menno, your website shows a scan of the newspaper article "Het waren de Halbertsma's, het was Haverschmidt", from the Leeuwarder Courant of 20-11-2010, but the resolution is too low to be read. Can you please post or mail a scan with a higher resolution? I think it could be very interesting for the discussion.
Posted Image

Edited by Otharus, 13 May 2011 - 01:31 AM.


#4857    Alewyn

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 04:37 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 13 May 2011 - 12:06 AM, said:

"Davis (1996) has reminded us of Clube and Napier's impact theory, and asked 'Where is the archaeological and geological evidence for the role of their 'Taurid Demons' in human history? The abrupt climate change at 2200 BC, regardless of an improbable impact explanation, situates hemispheric social collapse in a global, but ultimately cosmic, context." [Harvey Weiss: Late Third Millennium Abrupt Climate Change and Social Collapse in West Asia and Egypt. In: H Dalfes, G Kukla, H Weiss (eds.) Third Millennium BC Climate Change and Old World Collapse. Heidelberg/Berlin: Springer Verlag 1997, p. 719/20]
  
During the last two decades, researchers have discovered compelling evidence for abrupt climate change and civilization collapse in addition to sea level changes, catastrophic inundations and widespread seismic activity in many areas of the world at around 2200/2300 BC. Climatological proxy data together with sudden changes in lacustrine, fluvial and aeolian deposits have been detected in the archaeological, geological and climatological records. The most comprehensive survey of this particular climate disaster which coincided with (and most likely caused) the collapse of mankind's first urban civilizations can be found in the above mentioned volume on "Third Millennium BC Climate Change and Old World Collapse." Although there is still considerable disagreement about the "absolute" date of this catastrophe, a growing number of scholars agree that we are indeed dealing with an abrupt natural disaster with devastating effects on civilizations in West Asia, Europe and North Africa, but which was perhaps a global event.
  
When, between 1980 and 1988, the Society for Interdisciplinary Studies (SIS) published Moe Mandelkehr's pioneering research papers on archaeological, geological and climatological evidence for global climate and social catastrophes at around 2300 BC, Moe had gathered more than 350 references to back up his hypothesis with scientific data.
  
Now, almost 20 years later, 40 researchers from around the world have compiled the a.m. volume on the same event(s), analyzing and summarizing some 1700 references on abrupt climate change and social collapse around 4200/4300 BP.


http://www.zetatalk....rd/tword04m.htm
Puzzler,

I think we have to accept that we shall never ever convince Abe and ol' Geronimo. They are just not interested in the truth. To them this is just a game to see who is best at wordplay. Did you notice how Abe just side-stepped this one about Spain:

Quote

This was followed by a renewed phase of instability ( 4200–4100 cal. years BP) indicated by the presence of fine storm-lain deposits and thicker, probably tsunami-induced shelly deposits.”
All your and Otharus' language studies are right up their (the proponents of the hoax theory's) alley. They will keep you busy for years.
Enjoy.


#4858    The Puzzler

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 04:49 AM

View PostAlewyn, on 13 May 2011 - 04:37 AM, said:

Puzzler,

I think we have to accept that we shall never ever convince Abe and ol' Geronimo. They are just not interested in the truth. To them this is just a game to see who is best at wordplay. Did you notice how Abe just side-stepped this one about Spain:


All your and Otharus' language studies are right up their (the proponents of the hoax theory's) alley. They will keep you busy for years.
Enjoy.
I'll give the words a rest for a while.  :tu:

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#4859    Alewyn

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 07:29 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 12 May 2011 - 08:08 PM, said:

The Delfzijl megalithic tombs were covered with mud... GRADUALLY.

No signs of any catastrophic events here around 2200 BC, Alewyn.


You could make a case for 3000 BC as easy as you can create a case for 2200 BC.

--
And all I want is proof all this happened in 2200 BC, in Europe. That's volcanoes erupting, lands submerging, lands rising, mountains crumbling down, mountains rising up, rivers diverting their course, wildfires all over the place.

And that place is.. EUROPE, for THAT area is what the OLB is talkinmg about.

.



==


"In the first period of the third phase ( 5200–4200 cal. years BP)".

That is a THOUSAND YEARS !! Hello?


.
Abe,
Not having grown up in a town or city and not being quite so familiar with the communal life in Europe, it took me quite some time to figure this one out.

It has only now dawned on me that this UM site is in effect no more than an internet piazza, plaza or town square. The locals drop in everyday to share a glass of vino, ale, whisky, cup of tea or whatever, have a good yarn and just laze the time away. They would share trivialities, local gossip and generally no one takes anybody else very seriously. It is actually quite a necessary part of social interaction. From that point of view, I must confess, I enjoy the discussions and acquaintances I made here over the last (almost) one year.

The mistake I made was to think that one could have a serious debate here on matters of academic interest. Please accept my apologies. I shall in future try to refrain from placing too much value on most of the discussions.


#4860    The Puzzler

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 08:37 AM

Yes, Abe, maybe you could take it up with these guys...

Now, almost 20 years later, 40 researchers from around the world have compiled the a.m. volume on the same event(s), analyzing and summarizing some 1700 references on abrupt climate change and social collapse around 4200/4300 BP.

Your insistance on absolutes is getting on my nerves to say the least.

Again, you don't really know when this event occurred, what you know is the date in a context of Christian Reckoning.

Edited by The Puzzler, 13 May 2011 - 09:00 AM.

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