I Don't Get the Rt. Wing Take on Health Care

[Siara]

I honestly don't understand the right wing take on government health care and I'm hoping someone here can explain it. (Seriously, I'm trying to understand it) I'm going to explain my position & how I got there, not because my life is especially interesting but because this is the data and experience I'm working with. I'm an older person and I've been pretty fortunate financially. I have enough money that I have access to top notch care as do the members of my family. So there's a very real sense that this is not my problem and I should shut up. But when I was younger I was poor and I did manual labor, beginning with soldering computer boards on an assembly line.

I soon realized (like-- after one hour) that this was not what I wanted to do. After a while I migrated towards fine craft work, since I like working with my hands. I love musical instruments and ended up getting pretty accomplished at rebuilding antique pianos and harpsichords. That is 15 years rolled into 2 sentences.

So I would work in my shop rebuilding instruments with a crew. Obviously these instruments had to be moved around and I used the same piano moving crew all the time. My job was craft work. It got some respect in the community and and it payed okay. Their job was brute physical labor, they got no respect from the community and their pay was bad. They were great people who lived in trailers and small houses outside the community where I worked with families which they supported. None of us had any health insurance. My job was cushy relative to theirs, though I ended up with arthritis before I was 40 due to the physical labor (which was so much less than theirs). I was and am married to a guy who got health insurance through his job. Their spouses didn't have health care either.

These guys got injured on a regular basis and couldn't afford anything but the most basic medical aid. Once they got injured once they never really healed, so they were a little more awkward and it was easier for them to get injured again. This one guy got really badly injured so that he couldn't work. He tried to go back to work but physically he was too messed up. His family went on welfare and he got addicted to pain killers (bringing all that drug addiction does into his family.

To me it seemed like the medical system was treating him like a disposable piece of trash. Maybe like a pair of cheap shoes, wear them and enjoy them while they last then throw them out and get another pair.

Under Obama's plan a guy like that would have insurance (the public option) so maybe injury wouldn't result in a downward spiral. And yet most working class folks hate the idea of government health care. Why? You must see what I see-- good people whose bodies are broken down before their time getting screwed over. And yet you feel like government health care is such a "threat to your freedom" that it's worth passing up on having a safety net for you and your families.

I've lived in countries with government health care and I've seen first hand that this segment of the community doesn't end up in these hidious situations like they do in America.

So what is it? You think that you're going to lose your chance of having a shot at the "American Dream" if your families are protected? You'd honestly prefer that you and your families risk getting crushed this way so that the government doesn't have some sort of power over you? The way I see it, you're paying a bunch of insurance agencies a ton of money for the privilege of being treated as disposable. With government health care contributing to society means you've earned the right to minimal health care.

Okay, now some of you all explain your position. If possible please include a vague history of your working experience & conditions, or some practical experiences from your lives (IOW not political theory or rhetoric-- stuff from your personal life). I would really like to understand why you think the way you do.

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Please don't bother with answers like, "socialism cripples human freedom". YOUR REAL LIFE.

[eqgumby]

I'm bumping this, because I want to see an answer too.

I also don't feel like typing an answer of my own...

[preacherman76]

Its that our governemnt has proven beyond a reason of a doubt they cant be trusted. We do have a health insurance problem, no one can denie that. But for people in the know, they understand that regulations the government put on interstate insurance, and laws created to stop not for profit insurance companies (kinda like credit unions), the invention of social programs like medicare/aid, have all contributed to why we have these problems of unaffordable health care to begin with. If they are the ones who created the problem, intentionaly cause of special interests, why would we depend on them for the answers? Especialy as they hide what they are doing behind closed doors, with the same special interest lobbiest they have been pandering to all along.

Edited January 20, 2010 by preacherman76

[Siara]

Its that our governemnt has proven beyond a reason of a doubt they cant be trusted. We do have a health insurance problem, no one can denie that. But for people in the know, they understand that regulations the government put on interstate insurance, and laws created to stop not for profit insurance companies (kinda like credit unions), the invention of social programs like medicare/aid, have all contributed to why we have these problems of unaffordable health care to begin with. If they are the ones who created the problem, intentionaly cause of special interests, why would we depend on them for the answers? Especialy as they hide what they are doing behind closed doors, with the same special interest lobbiest they have been pandering to all along.

So you trust the insurance companies more? These people are ripping you blind. Haven't you seen the statistics on the changing distribution of wealth in America (like... the poor are getting poorer. Much poorer.) To me the government is corrupt and bad but the insurance companies are the scum of the earth.

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Not only are they taking your money hand over fist, they are allowing you to have care that is beneath the standard of every other non-third-world country ( according to the World Health Organization)

Edited January 20, 2010 by Siara

[preacherman76]

So you trust the insurance companies more? These people are ripping you blind. Haven't you seen the statistics on the changing distribution of wealth in America (like... the poor are getting poorer. Much poorer.) To me the government is corrupt and bad but the insurance companies are the scum of the earth.

Its not that I trust insurance companies. But ask your self why insurance companies cant be trusted. Cause they have no competition. Federal laws prohibit competition, cause only a small handfull of companies can operate in each state. Imagine you had 100 insurance companies to choose from. BAM true captitalism would crush the federaly made monopolies they created. Insurance companies would be dropping thier prices left and right, just to keep thier customers. Remove the laws that prevent not for profit insurance, and the insurance companies would be forced to drop thier prices even more, if they want to compete in the market.

[preacherman76]

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Not only are they taking your money hand over fist, they are allowing you to have care that is beneath the standard of every other non-third-world country ( according to the World Health Organization)

edit, I read that wrong, never mind

Edited January 20, 2010 by preacherman76

[Siara]

The WHO is full of crap. Im taken care of FAR better than folks in third world countries. And so is everyone I know. And I have friends in low places.

Do you have internet friends from countries with government health care so you can chat privately and compare what your families are getting?

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preacherman, I really appreciate you answering these questions

Edited January 20, 2010 by Siara

[theGhost_and_theDarkness]

What if our country used the exact same method as other countries with government health care? Then it wouldn't be a matter of our government making something for itself that has loopholes they can take advantage of. Put laws into place preventing them from doing certain things with it. That, to me, seems much easier and less time consuming than straightening out all the insurance companies.

Do you have internet friends from countries with government health care so you can chat privately and compare what your families are getting?

I do. . .and they're generally appalled about my health care and the difficulties I've had to deal with. That's actually what sort of opened my eyes to how ridiculous things were here.

Edited January 20, 2010 by theGhost_and_theDarkness

[preacherman76]

Do you have internet friends from countries with government health care so you can chat privately and compare what your families are getting?

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Honestly Siara, and I dont mean this to sound egotistical, though it will probably come off that way. Though I respect the opinions of my brothers a sister's from other countries, and if they like thier government run insurance thats great, but we have created this country on nearly unheard of Ideas, and it has brought us striaght to the top. Its moving away from these very ideas that have created most of our problems. Did you know before Medicaid/care, people only got 5000 dollars worth of insurance on average, that cost like 10 bucks a month, and could afford to not use it for the small stuff? Like a ER visit for a sprained wrist. In comes a social program,(medicais/care directly against the will of the republic and the constitution, and prices started going through the roof. When the government is flipping the bill, you charge whatever you want.

preacherman, I really appreciate you answering these questions

No problem. Anytime.

[Siara]

So you think the government is lying to you in this regard. And you think the World Health Organization is lying too. But you think the insurance industries are more honest...

I'm leaving the government out of this because... yeah, they lie. But why would the WHO lie to you? They're an international association affiliated (I think) with the UN that runs on charity and doesn't make a huge profit (the people at the top make good money). The insurance companies make a MINT if they lie. And we know that they are making a mint. If you look at this who has more to gain by lying?

Don't you think that maybe the conflict in information that your getting comes NOT from people in foreign countries not understanding America, our government lying, WHO and other international organizations lying, and so on but from insurance companies launching a disinformation campaign because they've already made so much money off you that they can hire advertising wizards to scare you into giving them more?

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People on this forum who've lived under both medical systems are united in saying that for the working class the government system ends up working better. I've said that many times. Why do you think I'm saying it? To help Washington scum bags get richer? I don't associate with Washington scum bags. It's because I've worked for 32 years and I've seen it.

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Edited January 20, 2010 by Siara

[preacherman76]

What if our country used the exact same method as other countries with government health care? Then it wouldn't be a matter of our government making something for itself that has loopholes they can take advantage of. Put laws into place preventing them from doing certain things with it. That, to me, seems much easier and less time consuming than straightening out all the insurance companies.

I do. . .and they're generally appalled about my health care and the difficulties I've had to deal with. That's actually what sort of opened my eyes to how ridiculous things were here.

It would be even more easy to just remove monoploy supporting legislation, after that the insurance companies would striaghten themselfs out. Real quick. Everyone wants to blame insurance companies, not knowing the government has given them the power to monopolize.

Its similar with drug companies. Federal regulation has made it nearly impossible to put new drugs on the market. You need billions of dollars. So we are stuck with a select few, who charge whatever they want, cause you have no other place to get them. Drop the regulations, and we will see a million new drug companies develope over night. Sure that could make a small mess, but they will soon be known for thier fruit.

[preacherman76]

So you think the government is lying to you in this regard. And you think the World Health Organization is lying too. But you think the insurance industries are more honest...

Again, its not about honesty, its about government created monopolies with the insurance companies. And no they dont even try to lie about it. Its in the open, for anyone who cares enough to find out. If you want insurance companies to be honest, all you have to do is give thier customers several other choices. Honesty will flow like a river, or they will be left behind. You know, capitalism. If your not getting good service, you go to a differnt store.

I'm leaving the government out of this because... yeah, they lie. But why would the WHO lie to you? They're an international association affiliated (I think) with the UN that runs on charity and doesn't make a huge profit (the people at the top make good money). The insurance companies make a MINT if they lie. And we know that they are making a mint. If you look at this who has more to gain by lying?

I read what you said about the WHO wrong, and have edited my post. But I do think the WHO is a bunch of globalist freaks, who would love nothing more than to eventualy get everyone in the world under the same health insurance. But thats a whole other matter.

[Siara]

I read what you said about the WHO wrong, and have edited my post. But I do think the WHO is a bunch of globalist freaks, who would love nothing more than to eventualy get everyone in the world under the same health insurance. But thats a whole other matter.

I agree that some of them are probably globalist freaks (aka politically correct). But I think WHO is too decentralized to get enough power to control world health.

It seems like we agree that the insurance companies are the bad guys, but we each think the other's policy's give those companies a pass to continue their abusive behavior.

[preacherman76]

Don't you think that maybe the conflict in information that your getting comes NOT from people in foreign countries not understanding America, our government lying, WHO and other international organizations lying, and so on but from insurance companies launching a disinformation campaign because they've already made so much money off you that they can hire advertising wizards to scare you into giving them more?

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Its not that I have conflicting infomation. I have heard plenty that people like thier government health insurance. And its not that I think they mighty not be better off then we are now. I just look at the problems we have now, and place the blame in the right direction. Government regulation. If government is the reason we have such high costs, its easyer to just remove them from the equation and let capitalism do its thing to correct the market. This way we can continue to stand on certain principles. Americans (when the game isnt rigged by monopolies) dont need the government to take care of them. We especialy dont need them to protect us from insurance companies THEY gave the power to monopolize. We open a can of true capitalism on them, and the ship with striaghten its self out.

People on this forum who've lived under both medical systems are united in saying that for the working class the government system ends up working better. I've said that many times. Why do you think I'm saying it? To help Washington scum bags get richer? I don't associate with Washington scum bags. It's because I've worked for 32 years and I've seen it.

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Thats cause the government here has created monopolies. Remove those, let capitalism do what it does best, then compare. Why would we put health care in the hands of our government, when they are the cause of our high priced health insurance problems?

[Siara]

But we can only break those monopolies THROUGH the government. It's a legal matter.

[eqgumby]

So you trust the insurance companies more? These people are ripping you blind. Haven't you seen the statistics on the changing distribution of wealth in America (like... the poor are getting poorer. Much poorer.) To me the government is corrupt and bad but the insurance companies are the scum of the earth.

---------------------------------------

Not only are they taking your money hand over fist, they are allowing you to have care that is beneath the standard of every other non-third-world country ( according to the World Health Organization)

That is a fallacy by the way. The WHO grades health care, and the reason the US falls as low as they do, is because of the grading criteria. The BIGGEST contributer to a nations over-all score, is ONE question: Does the Nation being graded have SOCIALIZED MEDICINE? We answer NO, and we are immediately dropped to the bottom of the pile. Despite we are above and beyond 90% of the developed world in all the OTHER categories, when that ONE question counts for 30% of the grade, you lose automatically.

And I don't see that your question was answered.

[eqgumby]

But we can only break those monopolies THROUGH the government. It's a legal matter.

The government CREATED the problem.

Catch 22...

[preacherman76]

But we can only break those monopolies THROUGH the government. It's a legal matter.

Right. Thats why we have to have a informed public, and vote in people that are for the people. And that isnt going to happen electing another republican or democrat. Unless it was Ron Paul, he'd do it day one. (not trying to start a like RP or not debate, just stating a fact that thats what he would do). I think come this presidencial election in 2012 this is going to be a hot topic.

The laws that created the problem are unconstitutional. And according to the constitution, any law made against its will was never a law to begin with. Though without the right people in place, that isnt going to help us out much either.

[preacherman76]

That is a fallacy by the way. The WHO grades health care, and the reason the US falls as low as they do, is because of the grading criteria. The BIGGEST contributer to a nations over-all score, is ONE question: Does the Nation being graded have SOCIALIZED MEDICINE? We answer NO, and we are immediately dropped to the bottom of the pile. Despite we are above and beyond 90% of the developed world in all the OTHER categories, when that ONE question counts for 30% of the grade, you lose automatically.

And I don't see that your question was answered.

I didnt know that, lol. No wonder we fall short on the list.

[The Silver Thong]

I posted in another thread that I paid $126.00 a month for my healthcare and I was way off. I just looked at my pay stub and I pay $58.00 a month and I'm able to go to the doctors/hospital as much as I like. Even if I need a lung transplant or longterm therapy say for cancer it's completely covered. I'm not saying our system is perfect or even close but it does work as I have had to use it many times. Maybe the U.S isn't ready for a similar system but I do know it does more good than harm.

Edited January 20, 2010 by The Silver Thong

[Siara]

That is a fallacy by the way. The WHO grades health care, and the reason the US falls as low as they do, is because of the grading criteria. The BIGGEST contributer to a nations over-all score, is ONE question: Does the Nation being graded have SOCIALIZED MEDICINE? We answer NO, and we are immediately dropped to the bottom of the pile. Despite we are above and beyond 90% of the developed world in all the OTHER categories, when that ONE question counts for 30% of the grade, you lose automatically.

And I don't see that your question was answered.

please provide politically impartial links backing up this statement.

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POINTS WE AGREE UPON:

1. You seem like an okay person but your political policies are very naive and are hurting good people I care about.

2. The insurance companies are ripping people off.

3. Our current government, both left and right, has been bought by lobbyists and can't be trusted.

4. The insurance companies have formed monopolies that ought to be illegal.

MY TAKE:

Siara: The way out of this is to create a public health care provider that's out of the loop of the monopoly. The only way to do this is to have a program run by the people instead of some CEOs. If people are to own the company it has to be run by our government (how else can people vote to control it?).

YOUR TAKE:

Preacherman: We have to keep government out of the system. They are part of the problem.

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Please add your corrections and thanks for your time in discussing this. I think I might actually understand your position better.

.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Siara

[preacherman76]

please provide politically impartial links backing up this statement.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

POINTS WE AGREE UPON:

1. You seem like an okay person but your political policies are very naive and are hurting good people I care about.

2. The insurance companies are ripping people off.

3. Our current government, both left and right, has been bought by lobbyists and can't be trusted.

4. The insurance companies have formed monopolies that ought to be illegal.

MY TAKE:

Siara: The way out of this is to create a public health care provider that's out of the loop of the monopoly. The only way to do this is to have a program run by the people instead of some CEOs. If people are to own the company it has to be run by our government (how else can people vote to control it?).

YOUR TAKE:

Preacherman: We have to keep government out of the system. They are part of the problem.

-------------

Please add your corrections and thanks for your time in discussing this. I think I might actually understand your position better.

.

But Siara, we can have not for profit insurance compaines, not run by the government, but by we the people. All we have to do is make the government stop saying we arent allowed to.

[Siara]

But Siara, we can have not for profit insurance compaines, not run by the government, but by we the people. All we have to do is make the government stop saying we arent allowed to.

I'll try to understand this. I don't see how we the people can have non-for-profit insurance companies that don't end up getting taken over by a power-hungry elite unless we can vote to periodically destroy these people's power. I've had bad luck with co-ops of all sorts. The bossiest most opinionated people end up in charge after everyone else keels over with exhaustion.

Keep posting and thanks again. I hope we can continue this. I have to stop posting for a while and do some work. See you later today [friendly wave]

[+DieChecker]

I honestly don't understand the right wing take on government health care and I'm hoping someone here can explain it. (Seriously, I'm trying to understand it)....

I've lived in countries with government health care and I've seen first hand that this segment of the community doesn't end up in these hidious situations like they do in America.

I outlined my past with Insurance in another thread, but will again here. Like 10 years ago I was employed, but had no insurance of any kind. No Life, Auto, Home or Health Insurance. So I worked overtime, went back to school and worked to get that good job that would provide me with Health Insurance and more income. and after about 5 years, I did it. Now I have disposable income enough that I have Life, Auto, Home and good Health Insurance.

I think the Republical ideal is that people should earn what they get, that you should keep striving to get to where you want to be. If you have no healthcare, go get it. Get another job, get a better job, go to school. The idea of just waiting around for a hand out is weak to this mindset.

I will admit that there are probably millions who, for whatever reason, are unable to work a job, or further their education, but I think that these are the minority.

I think that what we need is stricter regulation. Maybe tort reform. So that prices drop, by law or by competition. Then more people will be able to afford Insurance. What I do not think we need is another, or bigger, Medicare/Medicaid. I do not seem to be able to easily find how much Medicare and Medicaid spend each year, but it is well known that they are running at a deficit every year and that it is getting worse. Also the amount of Fraud in both is staggering, tens of billions of dollars each year. If we could only just fight that fraud effectively and close the budget gaps, there would be enough to cover all uninsured US citizens under these two programs.

The problem in short, is mis-management and lack of enforcement of fraud in existing programs.

Its that our governemnt has proven beyond a reason of a doubt they cant be trusted. We do have a health insurance problem, no one can denie that. But for people in the know, they understand that regulations the government put on interstate insurance, and laws created to stop not for profit insurance companies (kinda like credit unions), the invention of social programs like medicare/aid, have all contributed to why we have these problems of unaffordable health care to begin with. If they are the ones who created the problem, intentionaly cause of special interests, why would we depend on them for the answers? Especialy as they hide what they are doing behind closed doors, with the same special interest lobbiest they have been pandering to all along.

I have to agree with Preacherman here. If you look at what is being legislated and what the predictions are for the future of Medicaid/Medicare, it is easy to see that this is only a band-aid unless it is funded. And looking at how all other Fed programs seem to be going slowly under, and the rapidly growing National Debt, all I can see in the future is tax increase after tax increase, and they all will not go to the Rich either.

And no one is even talking about what will be going on when there is a Republican President and Republican Congress at the same time again. If we allow hidden meetings and one sided legislation now, think what might happen then.

[preacherman76]

I'll try to understand this. I don't see how we the people can have non-for-profit insurance companies that don't end up getting taken over by a power-hungry elite unless we can vote to periodically destroy these people's power. I've had bad luck with co-ops of all sorts. The bossiest most opinionated people end up in charge after everyone else keels over with exhaustion.

Keep posting and thanks again. I hope we can continue this. I have to stop posting for a while and do some work. See you later today [friendly wave]

Its just like a credit union bank. They are subjected to not for profit rules. They cant be up for sale as a wall street stock. Each state could regulate.

You'd probably hear more about this kinda stuff, but the folks who are against government care see it like, you dont worry about the thorn in your side(insurance companies), as you are about to be hit by a train(the federal government) So our focus has been more tward stopping this, rather than bringing forth our answers to the problems. Hence the reason you made this thread.

We should be more focused on selling policy to the public, instead of just trying to stop bad policy.