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Jefferson, Slavery & the USA


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#1    DeWitz

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 12:45 AM

On this day when the Supreme Court has altered the playing field on the Voting Rights Act and civil rights in general, it behooves us to ask: Was there a chance to erode, if not eradicate, slavery at the birth of our nation? Was a bloody Civil War the only way to resolve this issue? I've been in the forefront of condemning Jefferson (Washington and other 'Founding Fathers') for being hypocritical slaveowners. Then I discovered this:

www.vindicatingthefounders.com/library/jefferson-draft/html

What say ye?

Edited by szentgyorgy, 26 June 2013 - 12:46 AM.

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#2    kannin

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 12:47 AM

should have and could have been avoided i personally think there was no need for a civil war


#3    spartan max2

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 12:50 AM

I already knew what that link said. When you dont listen to the proaganda  you learn our founding fathers were not horrible people.

" I imagine that the intellegent people are the ones so intellegent that they dont even need or want to look "intellegent" anymore".
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#4    Yamato

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 01:23 AM

Quote

What say ye?

If we insist upon moral perfection from our leaders, you tell us, which ones do we follow?

Throwing mud on the Founders for living in a different era is a trivial pursuit that has nothing to do with the rule of law anymore.   Credit where credit is due:  It's also thanks to them that the Constitution gets Amended.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
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#5    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 01:28 AM

View Postspartan max2, on 26 June 2013 - 12:50 AM, said:

I already knew what that link said. When you dont listen to the proaganda  you learn our founding fathers were not horrible people.
No, but when viewed through a modern lens it's very clear they're quite 18th century thinkers. But that's the thing, they're from the 18th century, so that's not a problem.

Edited by Sir Wearer of Hats, 26 June 2013 - 01:29 AM.

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When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

#6    Almagest

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 02:02 AM

From what I understand Jefferson was in debt most of his life and was unable to free his slaves. For their time they were pretty cool guys.

Although the thing that bugs me about the worship of the Founding Fathers is the suggestion that they were possessed of a unique brilliance that doesn't exist these days. I think it does, it just isn't held by those running for public office it seems.

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#7    F3SS

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 03:09 AM

View PostAlmagest, on 26 June 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

From what I understand Jefferson was in debt most of his life and was unable to free his slaves. For their time they were pretty cool guys.

Although the thing that bugs me about the worship of the Founding Fathers is the suggestion that they were possessed of a unique brilliance that doesn't exist these days. I think it does, it just isn't held by those running for public office it seems.

Well then that isn't doing us any good now is it?


#8    MiskatonicGrad

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 03:57 AM

View PostAlmagest, on 26 June 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

From what I understand Jefferson was in debt most of his life and was unable to free his slaves. For their time they were pretty cool guys.

Although the thing that bugs me about the worship of the Founding Fathers is the suggestion that they were possessed of a unique brilliance that doesn't exist these days. I think it does, it just isn't held by those running for public office it seems.

if you did have that brilliance and ran for public office which party would you choose or more importantly which would except you?

"Were we directed from Washington when to sow, and when to reap, we should soon want bread" --Thomas Jefferson(1821)

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"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." --Thomas Jefferson(1800)

#9    Almagest

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 12:25 PM

View PostMiskatonicGrad, on 26 June 2013 - 03:57 AM, said:

if you did have that brilliance and ran for public office which party would you choose or more importantly which would except you?

Well I doubt either major party would accept such a candidate. Unless of course they managed to drastically alter the party from within. If I had to pick I would say a return to the pre-Nixon & Reagan Republican party could foster such a candidate quite nicely. I think Obama could have been pretty good if he stuck to his word and his pronounced convictions. One of the major campaign points Obama made was that McCain was 'Bush version 2.0'. Well what better way is there to describe Obama's tenure as president other than 'Bush version 2.0'?


View PostF3SS, on 26 June 2013 - 03:09 AM, said:

Well then that isn't doing us any good now is it?

Just gotta find them, man. They're not at Democratic or Republican conventions, or Occupy or Tea Party rallies. In fact the people best for the job probably steer clear of politics because it's so filthy. Find em and drag them kicking and screaming into office if need be. Lock and bar the door until they come up with good ideas if that'll help. :P

Heaven and hell suppose two distinct species of men, the good and the bad. But the greatest part of mankind float betwixt vice and virtue. - David Hume

#10    Walter White

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 12:49 PM

NM, I accidentally hit post before finishing.

I always thought "All men are created equal", was left in the document to serve as a maxim for future generations of Americans.

They knew how hypocritical it was to have such a statement in the declaration, but also knew that it was such a revolutionary statement for the time that it had to be included, regardless of how hypocritical it sounded.

"All men are created equal" is the core philosophy of every civil rights movement since the revolution of 1776.  Without it being enshrined in a political document, I think most civil rights successes would have been a lot harder to achieve.

Probably talking out of my behind but that's how I've always seen it.




Edited by Walter White, 26 June 2013 - 01:11 PM.

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#11    Papagiorgio

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 01:15 PM

View PostAlmagest, on 26 June 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

Just gotta find them, man. They're not at Democratic or Republican conventions, or Occupy or Tea Party rallies. In fact the people best for the job probably steer clear of politics because it's so filthy. Find em and drag them kicking and screaming into office if need be. Lock and bar the door until they come up with good ideas if that'll help. :P
I couldn't agree more. These career politicians are the problem. We need some fresh blood in Washington. Maybe we should start choosing our Congressman by lottery. That would shake things up.

I'm just saying.

#12    Frank Merton

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 02:05 PM

The American founding fathers were not elected in the way politicians are elected today.  They were men of considerable wealth, usually also of considerable land.  Delegates to conventions were in their turn elected by state convention delegates who generally were just the leading citizens of communities.

These elections by small groups of men of similar status and education caused a natural vetting of the best toward the top, as all the individuals knew each other personally. Few voters nowadays know the candidates more than the PR about them.

This sort of system is not democracy and is not subject to the failings of democracy, where trivial things like positioning on the ballot make a difference, and the timing of the election, and of course big city corruption where many vote early and often.

It is, instead, an oligarchy where rule is carried out by an elite.  The big problem with such oligarchies, of course, is that it lacks legitimacy in the eyes of most people and tends to be selfish and self-perpetuating (although this plainly was not the case with the American founding fathers).





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