138 replies to this topic

[Lion6969]

Vatic, on 14 October 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

A global worldwide conspiracy that spans thousands of years among disconnected people, would be harder to prove than the idea that Jesus doesn't exist. Jesus exist...

Precisely it's harder to prove reasoning for his non existence than for his existence, ie scripture, aural traditions, foreign scriptures references to him etc. I'm not trying to prove it either way, just putting some perspective and context.

[Arbitran]

Beckys_Mom, on 14 October 2012 - 01:49 AM, said:

When you watch  trick  by people such as Dynamo...

Walk on water..




Walks down a building..



And many more like it - Levitation, walking through glass etc etc..

If he was back in the times of Jesus,  I am willing to bet that many would think he was from god  or gods son too...

My point is.. I think that if this Jesus was real, he may have been the Dynamo of his day and a few of the stories exaggerated from tales past around...

It's worthy of note that the miracles of the other "prophets" of Jesus' time were a little flashier; some of them were claimed to have flown around Jerusalem. Sorry Jesus, but that's slightly more impressive miracle than the "water-walking" parlour trick... in my books it is, anyway.

[Lion6969]

Arbitran, on 14 October 2012 - 02:00 AM, said:

Unfortunately, scripture hasn't proven itself to qualify as documentation; it hasn't given us anything to set it apart from fiction. That's what I meant. No official records of his trial and execution, no census records, nothing. That's what I meant.

Trial records? Consensus records? Do you have such evidence for other figures at that time?

My point is not that the scripture is proof of his existence, but in corroboration with aural traditions, regional traditions, with global references and other scriptural references about him, relay information about a person allegedly existing, you dismiss the entire corpus because the scripture has not been proven, proven or verified in what way?

You seek documented evidence about a Jew from non Jew and non Christian sources at the expense of the latter two sources.

The Jewish Talmud refers to him, the Talmud is a rabbinic commentary on the Torah, and other Jewish legal, historical, spiritual aspects, they refer to him, not in a nice way, but still refer to him. The Talmud was always evolving even during his time.

So basically being selective about evidence is disingenuous in my humble opinion.

[Lion6969]

Arbitran, on 14 October 2012 - 02:02 AM, said:

It's worthy of note that the miracles of the other "prophets" of Jesus' time were a little flashier; some of them were claimed to have flown around Jerusalem. Sorry Jesus, but that's slightly more impressive miracle than the "water-walking" parlour trick... in my books it is, anyway.

Walking on water was not like dynamo I believe I think one should read it fully understand the context. Raising the dead, healing the blind etc, feeding 100s with hardly anything etc etc etc. Miracles are miracles, but they have no bearing on his existence.

Ps magic and illusions were widely known at the time and practised by people then and before.....miracles of prophet were miles apart from trickery and illusions.

[Beckys_Mom]

Arbitran, on 14 October 2012 - 02:02 AM, said:

It's worthy of note that the miracles of the other "prophets" of Jesus' time were a little flashier; some of them were claimed to have flown around Jerusalem. Sorry Jesus, but that's slightly more impressive miracle than the "water-walking" parlour trick... in my books it is, anyway.

There was another man that was around the same time as Jesus  ( saw this in a documentary a while ago )  I think his name was Stephen?  Anyway , he started doing tricks and one of them was levitation...When Peter and other followers of Jesus saw him preform those tricks, they stoned him to the ground as if to say - Don't you dare try and steal Jesus's spotlight...!!!

Another story that is rather recent  - A young toddler  ( aged 3 )  in China  ( or some place close )  could bless bottled water and his parents and friends of the family were convincing the crowds he was like a spiritual healer, and when the locasl drank the water, they all claimed it cured them...  I believe that to be the mind over body trick...

Are you a fan of House?..   One of the episodes  had a man who lost one of his arms in a war, it blew off as he was griping someone or other...   For 36 years after the accident, he still felt the pain of his fist clenched, even though his hand was gone, he still felt pain...   Dr Gregory House   strapped the man to a chair... He placed a box in front of him, and a mirror inside..  He had a hole cut on the outside of the box, big enough for the man's arm to fit through.    House tells the man to put his arm through the hole of the box...

When the man put his arm through the hole of the box,  House then told him to hold it out in front of the mirror ( so it would show a reflection and look as if he is looking at both arms and hands ) ...He then asked him to straighten his hand out flat looking into the mirror at the same time...   The man does this ..Within seconds,  tears fell from the man's face and he looks to House saying.. For the first time in 36 years, he no longer feels the pain from his missing hand..........   The mind truly is that powerful

[Arbitran]

Lion6969, on 14 October 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:

Trial records? Consensus records? Do you have such evidence for other figures at that time?

My point is not that the scripture is proof of his existence, but in corroboration with aural traditions, regional traditions, with global references and other scriptural references about him, relay information about a person allegedly existing, you dismiss the entire corpus because the scripture has not been proven, proven or verified in what way?

You seek documented evidence about a Jew from non Jew and non Christian sources at the expense of the latter two sources.

The Jewish Talmud refers to him, the Talmud is a rabbinic commentary on the Torah, and other Jewish legal, historical, spiritual aspects, they refer to him, not in a nice way, but still refer to him. The Talmud was always evolving even during his time.

So basically being selective about evidence is disingenuous in my humble opinion.

I said contemporaneous. Of course the Talmud refers to him; centuries after he is alleged to have lived. Ergo: not evidence of his existence. The Romans kept very meticulous records of trial proceedings and census records of the populous; true, not all of these survive today, but nonetheless, my point was that Jesus is not recorded in any documents of the time. Scripture and oral tradition are stories; inseparable from fiction unless documentation showed otherwise, which, again, it does not.

[Arbitran]

Lion6969, on 14 October 2012 - 02:14 AM, said:

Walking on water was not like dynamo I believe I think one should read it fully understand the context. Raising the dead, healing the blind etc, feeding 100s with hardly anything etc etc etc. Miracles are miracles, but they have no bearing on his existence.

Ps magic and illusions were widely known at the time and practised by people then and before.....miracles of prophet were miles apart from trickery and illusions.

The difference was that people at the time had a notorious difficulty telling the difference between illusion and "miracle". In any case, you are correct, these things have no bearing on the existence/non-existence of Jesus. To continue a familiar theme: no contemporaneous documentation exists to demonstrate that (whether supernatural or illusion) Jesus' purported "miracles" ever happened.

[Arbitran]

Beckys_Mom, on 14 October 2012 - 02:25 AM, said:

There was another man that was around the same time as Jesus  ( saw this in a documentary a while ago )  I think his name was Stephen?  Anyway , he started doing tricks and one of them was levitation...When Peter and other followers of Jesus saw him preform those tricks, they stoned him to the ground as if to say - Don't you dare try and steal Jesus's spotlight...!!!

Another story that is rather recent  - A young toddler  ( aged 3 )  in China  ( or some place close )  could bless bottled water and his parents and friends of the family were convincing the crowds he was like a spiritual healer, and when the locasl drank the water, they all claimed it cured them...  I believe that to be the mind over body trick...

Are you a fan of House?..   One of the episodes  had a man who lost one of his arms in a war, it blew off as he was griping someone or other...   For 36 years after the accident, he still felt the pain of his fist clenched, even though his hand was gone, he still felt pain...   Dr Gregory House   strapped the man to a chair... He placed a box in front of him, and a mirror inside..  He had a hole cut on the outside of the box, big enough for the man's arm to fit through. House tells the man to put his arm through the hole of the box...

When the man put his arm through the hole of the box,  House then told him to hold it out in front of the mirror ( so it would show a reflection and look as if he is looking at both arms and hands ) ...He then asked him to straighten his hand out flat looking into the mirror at the same time...   The man does this ..Within seconds,  tears fell from the man's face and he looks to House saying.. For the first time in 36 years, he no longer feels the pain from his missing hand..........   The mind truly is that powerful

Indeed. I admit I chuckled a bit at the implications of that first paragraph... "Jesus can do miracles by the power of God... obviously... but that Stephen guy levitating?! Blasphemy!"

[Beckys_Mom]

Arbitran, on 14 October 2012 - 02:33 AM, said:

Indeed. I admit I chuckled a bit at the implications of that first paragraph... "Jesus can do miracles by the power of God... obviously... but that Stephen guy levitating?! Blasphemy!"

That exactly what the crowds condemned Jesus for - Blasphemy.. They claimed he must have been from the evil spirits.. ( unclean spirits ) ...   The bible itself condemns all magic tricks, claiming them to be tricks of satan

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 14 October 2012 - 02:57 AM.

[Dash--]

Beckys_Mom, on 14 October 2012 - 02:25 AM, said:

There was another man that was around the same time as Jesus  ( saw this in a documentary a while ago )  I think his name was Stephen?  Anyway , he started doing tricks and one of them was levitation...When Peter and other followers of Jesus saw him preform those tricks, they stoned him to the ground as if to say - Don't you dare try and steal Jesus's spotlight...!!!

Simon Magus.(Think that's who your talking about)

[Beckys_Mom]

Arbitran, on 14 October 2012 - 02:30 AM, said:

The difference was that people at the time had a notorious difficulty telling the difference between illusion and "miracle".

Correct you are..  You forgot to mention that  many people  in today's world   can't tell the difference either..   If anyone  tries to say - Oh but people all know the difference, then they obviously have taken a narrow view and they must think everyone  is in the know and  all agree with the same idea ... I  know that it is not like that.. I have met people who cannot tell the difference... I used to think they were kidding around, but shockingly, they were serious !!!

You also have many of those desperate to convince you that miracles  are real that they will gladly  deny other possible  answers Put it this way.. If you were clinging to religion tightly and you believed all you read, there is no way in hell you will listen to any other logical ideas and possible answers from anyone.. In fact,  you may get on your high horse and rant, argue and   LOL  at any logical reasoning... Denial and clinging to one side  will do that to so many..  Humans are weird creatures   lol

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 14 October 2012 - 02:56 AM.

[Beckys_Mom]

Dash--, on 14 October 2012 - 02:40 AM, said:

Simon Magus.(Think that's who your talking about)

Simon?  Hmm ok well it began with an S   lol... Thank you for helping with the name.. It was long ago when I watched it...I just could not recall his name

[Lion6969]

Arbitran, on 14 October 2012 - 02:28 AM, said:

I said contemporaneous. Of course the Talmud refers to him; centuries after he is alleged to have lived. Ergo: not evidence of his existence. The Romans kept very meticulous records of trial proceedings and census records of the populous; true, not all of these survive today, but nonetheless, my point was that Jesus is not recorded in any documents of the time. Scripture and oral tradition are stories; inseparable from fiction unless documentation showed otherwise, which, again, it does not.

The Talmud was a running commentary on the Torah even during his lifetime, it was always being edited and updated. Even Jesus enemies have mentioned him. Roman records are not available cause they did not survive. Yet dismiss scripture and everything else because you don't have trial records and consensus records.....not very academic but rather selective. You dismiss verbal traditions because they might be fiction, hence conspired to build a myth. You totally dismiss the fact even if a 1000 people refered to him a century later based on verbal traditions, that they would all have to have conspired and if so, it's down to you to substantiate it. Hence why it's likely he did exist in some form or another.

I'm not proving his existence or disproving it, I'm just pointing out the baggage and the selective use or demand for evidence.

The myth of aural traditions being like Chinese whispers is a misguided and incorrect stance, it only illustrates the lack knowledge on information passed verbally. For example where are the records showing jesus's trial yet you have verbal traditions about it, which lasted the written document or the verbal tradition amongst a people known to pass knowledge etc via both written and aural traditions.

[Lion6969]

Arbitran, on 14 October 2012 - 02:30 AM, said:

The difference was that people at the time had a notorious difficulty telling the difference between illusion and "miracle".

how do you substantiate this claim, you have no proof for such claims. It's simply your opinion that they could not, it's not fact.

[Arbitran]

Lion6969, on 14 October 2012 - 03:14 AM, said:

The Talmud was a running commentary on the Torah even during his lifetime, it was always being edited and updated.

I am aware. However, it is known very well when particular sections of the Talmud were added, subtracted, or edited. The reference to Jesus is from many centuries after his death (and yes, I do think that Jesus existed; I'm merely noting that there is no concrete evidence of this).

Lion6969, on 14 October 2012 - 03:14 AM, said:

Even Jesus enemies have mentioned him. Roman records are not available cause they did not survive. Yet dismiss scripture and everything else because you don't have trial records and consensus records.....not very academic but rather selective.

I select documentation and objective evidence over legend and folklore, if that's what you mean.

Lion6969, on 14 October 2012 - 03:14 AM, said:

You dismiss verbal traditions because they might be fiction, hence conspired to build a myth. You totally dismiss the fact even if a 1000 people refered to him a century later based on verbal traditions, that they would all have to have conspired and if so, it's down to you to substantiate it. Hence why it's likely he did exist in some form or another.

They would not have to have conspired at all. It has long been told that Columbus discovered the New World; this is known to be a falsehood. And yet, oral tradition and stories were passed down which claimed this, and some of us still believe it today. This is not the result of conspiracy; simply of exaggeration and misunderstanding (among other factors).

Lion6969, on 14 October 2012 - 03:14 AM, said:

I'm not proving his existence or disproving it, I'm just pointing out the baggage and the selective use or demand for evidence.

Yes, I will demand evidence; reliable, documentary evidence being objectively preferable to hearsay and folklore.

Lion6969, on 14 October 2012 - 03:14 AM, said:

The myth of aural traditions being like Chinese whispers is a misguided and incorrect stance, it only illustrates the lack knowledge on information passed verbally. For example where are the records showing jesus's trial yet you have verbal traditions about it, which lasted the written document or the verbal tradition amongst a people known to pass knowledge etc via both written and aural traditions.

I made no claim that the legends of Jesus are the result of Chinese Whispers (although this cannot be ruled out). I have simply noted that oral tradition and hearsay are not nearly as evidentially robust and useful as documentary evidence; a man called Hercules might have existed at one time, but the tales of his having been the son of a god, his heroic battles against vicious monsters, and his supernatural powers are more than likely exaggerations and later interpolations: additions to the legend as it grew over time. The same is with Jesus. Such a man may or may not have existed (the name, Y.H.S.W.A, passed from Greek and Latin to us as "Jesus", means "saviour"; a suspicious name, given that is his effective role in the stories, leading to the possibility that the character was invented to fill this role in the story); but whether or not a man named Jesus ever lived, or led a life bearing any resemblance to the one described in the stories of Jesus of Nazareth, the likelihood of his having performed feats of magic, risen from the dead, and ascended into the sky is virtually zero.