27 replies to this topic

[Chauncy]

Knight of the Twilight on Nov 24 2008, 02:45 PM, said:

But why does that battlefield exist to begin with? Because man mistrusts the man on the other side, thus generating fear and creating battle

There are lots of reasons for war, greed and domination  would come before not trusting the other men.

More practically though, it does seem that the reason why mankind has mistrust of fellow men is because mankind as a whole is not trustworthy. We can recognize that wisely placed trust can assist in survival. There is no question that we have the ability to decide where to place trust. So if this ability to trust exists then the question is why doesn't mankind trust fully in one another?

It because mankind is not trustworthy.

The flaw is not that mankind doesn't trust one another. The flaw is that mankind as a whole, does not exhibit character traits or actions that would advocate the wise placing of trust. We have allowed carnal motivation to dictate actions more often than not.

[Shadowmalerenamon]

Chauncy on Nov 24 2008, 10:00 AM, said:

There are lots of reasons for war, greed and domination  would come before not trusting the other men.

More practically though, it does seem that the reason why mankind has mistrust of fellow men is because mankind as a whole is not trustworthy. We can recognize that wisely placed trust can assist in survival. There is no question that we have the ability to decide where to place trust. So if this ability to trust exists then the question is why doesn't mankind trust fully in one another?

It because mankind is not trustworthy.

The flaw is not that mankind doesn't trust one another. The flaw is that mankind as a whole, does not exhibit character traits or actions that would advocate the wise placing of trust. We have allowed carnal motivation to dictate actions more often than not.

Why does one wish to conquer other territory? Yes, greed is a factor, but in the end it comes down to mistrust. Man doesn't know the other man, so he cannot trust him. Since he cannot trust him, he fears him. Now that he fears him, he must kill him, so that the fear will be eliminated, although this alliviation of fear only remains until another unknown man is encountered.

[Chauncy]

Knight of the Twilight on Nov 24 2008, 04:06 PM, said:

Why does one wish to conquer other territory? Yes, greed is a factor, but in the end it comes down to mistrust. Man doesn't know the other man, so he cannot trust him. Since he cannot trust him, he fears him. Now that he fears him, he must kill him, so that the fear will be eliminated, although this alliviation of fear only remains until another unknown man is encountered.

There is an element of mistrust there I suppose.

Where this mistrust originated though is of interest.

When a group of people, a tribe lets say , encounters another tribe in close proximity they would surely battle. It isn't out of mistrust it is a survival mechanism. The tribe in close proximity would be direct competition for animals hunted, and land to grow food. It became a natural response to snuff out that which may infringe on the odds of survival.

This is an animal instinct. I think what happened is that this animal instinct evolved into habit, and tradition and it eventually rose above a basic reaction to environmental stimuli and became customary even ritualistic.

[The Silver Thong]

Chauncy on Nov 24 2008, 08:50 AM, said:

There is an element of mistrust there I suppose.

Where this mistrust originated though is of interest.

When a group of people, a tribe lets say , encounters another tribe in close proximity they would surely battle. It isn't out of mistrust it is a survival mechanism. The tribe in close proximity would be direct competition for animals hunted, and land to grow food. It became a natural response to snuff out that which may infringe on the odds of survival.

This is an animal instinct. I think what happened is that this animal instinct evolved into habit, and tradition and it eventually rose above a basic reaction to environmental stimuli and became customary even ritualistic.

Exactly, it's animal Instinct. Just as if two different pride's of lions where to come across each other. Instinctivly both prides will not trust one another and one pride will be drivin off. Not over miss-trust so much as the need to protect your own social structure. Trust or miss-trust, both are required survival skills.

[Saard]

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Yet I have to disagree. Yes trust/miss trust is vital to our survival. However the family unit was not built out of greed and self preservation. It was built out of early humans having to rely on other humans/family members. Man has not been selfish in it's infancy. Man was forced to share and protect back then. Now it's everyman for himself. The trust and social structure that made man strong is now falling apart. We don't trust now as we use to, why is that? Yet we will trust almost anyone still, just with a wink. hmmmm

what is the family unit but self-preservation? Continuation of the g-e-n-e-s (see edit for the wierd word spacing), strength in numbers... You cast an inaccurate picture there methinks. The world isn't any better or worse now, just more complicated.

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If we can trust those we band together with, why should we mistrust the others? What is the reason for that mistrust? The reason: Man, by nature, trusts no one.

Nah, not true. Mistrust is learnt. There are examples of animals without predators enountering man for the first time and having no fear. We would be the same. If we lived in a world with no predators and all our needs met, we'd be wandering around that Eden without distrust or malice or most negative emotions, up until the point we became complicated enough to want something the other person has, like their partner. Selfishness is more basic than mistrust. When needs are met, we turn to wants.

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The flaw is not that mankind doesn't trust one another. The flaw is that mankind as a whole, does not exhibit character traits or actions that would advocate the wise placing of trust. We have allowed carnal motivation to dictate actions more often than not.

I'd agree with this. We're not stuck with this though; we can be pretty much what we make ourselves. That's the joy of sentience. Admittedly, we've been cocking it up royally as a rule but we're capable of so much more.

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Why does one wish to conquer other territory? Yes, greed is a factor, but in the end it comes down to mistrust. Man doesn't know the other man, so he cannot trust him. Since he cannot trust him, he fears him. Now that he fears him, he must kill him, so that the fear will be eliminated, although this alliviation of fear only remains until another unknown man is encountered.

You're too hung up on this mistrust as the root of all evil idea. If I was the king of a small, poor kingdom with lots of armed men and I lived next door to a big, rich kingdom full of peace-loving robe-wearers who I trusted implicitly, I'm sure it wouldn't be too long before there was one huge kingdom with a lot of bloody robes lying about.

Mistrust is a symptom, learnt at cost a long time ago, taught and never forgotten.

This is a bit of a simplified discussion though, the problems of the modern world are wrapped around greed, politics, trust, mistrust, abuse, power etc etc. If we all trusted each other, everything would be fine. If we all were no longer selfish everything would be fine. If there was no hate... even getting rid of love in its wider definition would solve some problems. None of these things can be done. It's a big old Gordian Knot, let's hope there's someone a bit brighter than Alexander out there...

Edit:

The word 'genes' above somehow got turned into a link. When I clicked on it, it sent me to an advert that crashed explorer because it wouldn't let me out. Is this spyware on my computer or something to do with the site?

Edited by Saard, 25 November 2008 - 02:41 PM.

[Shadowmalerenamon]

Saard on Nov 24 2008, 07:52 PM, said:

You're too hung up on this mistrust as the root of all evil idea.

It is but one of the roots of all evil, as the following "Fatal Flaw" threads will discuss the others.

[Shadowmalerenamon]

Chauncy on Nov 24 2008, 10:50 AM, said:

When a group of people, a tribe lets say , encounters another tribe in close proximity they would surely battle. It isn't out of mistrust it is a survival mechanism. The tribe in close proximity would be direct competition for animals hunted, and land to grow food. It became a natural response to snuff out that which may infringe on the odds of survival.

Wouldn't the merging of the tribes increase the odds of survival? Yes, more manpower, more efficiency, and even when resources begin to dwindle, the collective intelligence of the new tribe could easily find a solution to the problem. Instead, man, by nature, fears the other man will decieve him, so he eliminates the other man.

[Chauncy]

Knight of the Twilight on Nov 25 2008, 03:30 PM, said:

Wouldn't the merging of the tribes increase the odds of survival? Yes, more manpower, more efficiency, and even when resources begin to dwindle, the collective intelligence of the new tribe could easily find a solution to the problem. Instead, man, by nature, fears the other man will decieve him, so he eliminates the other man.

To unite usually benefits the whole.

With the tribe scenario though, I think that the single tribe while flourishing has no need to merge with other tribes. This is not to say that once placed in a situation of peril or facing extinction that they wouldn't unite with other tribes. That differences are set aside when it comes to possible extiction.

People unite when they have things in common or the same objective. Look at corporations that merge......some are always in direct competition to one another, then in tough economic times they merge for the purpose of survival.

[Saard]

Knight of the Twilight on Nov 25 2008, 03:26 PM, said:

It is but one of the roots of all evil, as the following "Fatal Flaw" threads will discuss the others.

yeah, okay, you're not calling it the root of all evil. My bad, I exaggerated for effect.
What I think many posts have suggested here though is that in itself it's not a fatal flaw but the after effect of something else.
What do you think?

[Xenojjin]

The only real flaw humans have is that our realities are subjective to our own understanding, thus forcing us to use a form of circular reasoning ( presuppositions ) in order to trust our own senses. Mistrust, along with pretty much everything else that is wrong with us, is simply something that stems from that one flaw.

Edited by Xenojjin, 26 November 2008 - 06:12 PM.

[Saard]

Xenojjin on Nov 26 2008, 06:11 PM, said:

The only real flaw humans have is that our realities are subjective to our own understanding, thus forcing us to use a form of circular reasoning ( presuppositions ) in order to trust our own senses. Mistrust, along with pretty much everything else that is wrong with us, is simply something that stems from that one flaw.

Dunce hat firmly screwed down around ears? Check.

Okay, can you explain this one?

So, reality is subjective, I'm with you on that.
But why is it it circular to presuppose something?
If I tell someone that I don't smoke any more and they figure (presuppose) from that info that I once smoked, what's circular?
Seems quite logical and linear to me.

[Xenojjin]

How do you know the person really exists and is not your own delusion ?

[Max.L]

Knight of the Twilight on Nov 21 2008, 10:08 PM, said:

This is the first thread of a series I will be calling "Man's Fatal Flaws", the basic psychological reasons I have found as to why humanity is weak. I present these ideas in hope that others will take time and reflect upon them, and if they disagree, try to prove me wrong. I love debating, and I love testing my debating skills. As they say, "Let the game begin!"

Man creates the sword, and is thus killed by the sword. The sword is born out of distrust, the inability to trust his fellow man. Distrust leads to fear, fear leads to paranoia, parnoia leads to murder. Man kills his fellow man, finding solace in knowing the threat has been removed, only to discover a new threat, or be killed by another fearful man. Man's inability to trust his fellow man is the first fatal flaw.

The sword was not born out of distrust , but born out of experience of people getting killed by enemies and wild animals. Where there is good, there will be evil , on this earth , anyway . The good has to know who is good and who is bad , not everyone can be trusted and that is why distrust is important to the survival of good men.