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Pope Francis: Atheists can also go to heaven!


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#466    shadowhive

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 08:23 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 03 June 2013 - 08:09 PM, said:

Not sure what you've been hearing is the norm.

It's hard to say really isn't it since all are different and not expected to follow any set activities.

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It's part of it, but meeting up with believers IS a command, and if you aren't following the Bible then are you truly committed to Christ?

And since I WOULD be meeting with believers that command wouldn't be violated. I just looked back at the passage you used. It refers to believers meeting regularly. It does not state how regularly those meetings should be. So critising someone depite the still attending regularly sounds odd.

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And yes, it's easy to believe, however, telling my child that Jesus is his friend who cares and loves him and is with him in his heart always is precisely the message of the Bible.  It's a very basic form of the message, but essentially that is what it means.  Why does Jesus care so much?  Because he loved you so very much that he died for you.  That's the next step when the cognitive ability rises.  Why did he die for me, because we've done wrong in his eyes.  That is the next step.  What wrongs have we done?  The next step.  All this is age appropriate stuff, building on each other, the most basic to a more detailed understanding, until they have a proper understanding of what Christianity is.

I'd say it was an extremely basic one and that it misses a lot of the more negative aspects to make it palatable. I think when you get to 'the wrongs that we've done' and start listing them is where you'd likely start losing the hold on the child. The basic positive belief may sell them on it till then though.


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No worries.  I wouldn't mind a RE class that focused on world religions.  It's just not something done often in the schools in my area.

I can't rememebr anything about the class i attended if i'm honest. The teacher wasn't the best and I think it just... left me as soon as it was done.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#467    Paranoid Android

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 04:38 AM

View Postshadowhive, on 03 June 2013 - 08:23 PM, said:

It's hard to say really isn't it since all are different and not expected to follow any set activities.
You're the one who brought up Sunday School being "dry" (and that, put mildly).


View Postshadowhive, on 03 June 2013 - 08:23 PM, said:

And since I WOULD be meeting with believers that command wouldn't be violated. I just looked back at the passage you used. It refers to believers meeting regularly. It does not state how regularly those meetings should be. So critising someone depite the still attending regularly sounds odd.
I'm speaking more generally than just the hypothetical case of you and your partner alternating weeks to watch the kid at home.  Remember, you brought the issue of some Christians choosing not to go to church at all, and others simply going "when they feel like it".  That's what I'm talking about, not specifically you in this situation.


View Postshadowhive, on 03 June 2013 - 08:23 PM, said:

I'd say it was an extremely basic one and that it misses a lot of the more negative aspects to make it palatable. I think when you get to 'the wrongs that we've done' and start listing them is where you'd likely start losing the hold on the child. The basic positive belief may sell them on it till then though.
At first it has to be extremely basic, that's what "age appropriate" means.  Play School talking about a girl and her "two mummies" is also extremely basic.  When I was 8 or 9 (I can't remember exactly), my parents bought me a book on combat in World War II.  It simply had bright pictures of tanks, planes, guns, grenades.  There were short descriptions of each underneath in friendly letters for me to read.  I enjoyed looking at these weapons (most boys do), it even inspired me to write a story about an alternate reality where for some reason World War II did not end in 1945 and the battle still ravaged the world in the mid 1980's.  But my parents didn't give me any reading material on Auschwitz, they didn't relate the horrors of war, the disease, starvation, battlefield triage.  They didn't teach me about military battle strategy, tactics, who invaded who.  So I had a very basic understanding of WWII (they had particular weapons), what you'd call "age appropriate", and it inspired me as a kid to become creative and use my ability to write, even then I loved to write ("the sunlight glinted off the cannon of the *insert official tank name here* as it rolled towards the enemy hiding in the nearby trench" - that may or may not have been how my story started, I only remember writing it, not specific details, but you get the idea).

Likewise I think teaching my children age appropriate things about Jesus is acceptable.  As they develop they can learn deeper levels of my belief, and by the time they're 12 or 13 they probably have everything they need to know - Jesus' sacrifice, love, eternity, sin, judgement, repentance, Grace, and of course several well-known stories like David and Goliath and the like (though of course, as they develop further cognitive abilities, and move into High School, I'll start introducing them to more age appropriate stuff like the battle campaigns of the Israelites, including the death and destruction given out against other nations (just like learning about Auschwitz, there's an age appropriate time for this sort of thing).

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My blog is now taking a new direction.  Dedicated to my father who was a great inspiration in my life, I wish to honour his memory (RIP, dad) by sharing with the world what he had always kept to himself.  More details, http://www.unexplain...showentry=27811

#468    shadowhive

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 09:41 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 04 June 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

You're the one who brought up Sunday School being "dry" (and that, put mildly).

The ones I've seen didn't have uch activities, but was focussed on bible readings and such which... well. Expecting a kid to understand many of the bible stories is a bit ,uch

Quote

I'm speaking more generally than just the hypothetical case of you and your partner alternating weeks to watch the kid at home.  Remember, you brought the issue of some Christians choosing not to go to church at all, and others simply going "when they feel like it".  That's what I'm talking about, not specifically you in this situation.

Ah. Well, like I say, it's all down to a person's choice. You may not like that a christian doesn't go to church regularly, but you can't actually do anything about it can you? Anymore than you could admonish people in liberal churches and force them to attend your own.

Ultimately we're all human and it's their choice to go or not and it's not your place to judge them for it is it?

Quote

At first it has to be extremely basic, that's what "age appropriate" means.  Play School talking about a girl and her "two mummies" is also extremely basic.  When I was 8 or 9 (I can't remember exactly), my parents bought me a book on combat in World War II.  It simply had bright pictures of tanks, planes, guns, grenades.  There were short descriptions of each underneath in friendly letters for me to read.  I enjoyed looking at these weapons (most boys do), it even inspired me to write a story about an alternate reality where for some reason World War II did not end in 1945 and the battle still ravaged the world in the mid 1980's.  But my parents didn't give me any reading material on Auschwitz, they didn't relate the horrors of war, the disease, starvation, battlefield triage.  They didn't teach me about military battle strategy, tactics, who invaded who.  So I had a very basic understanding of WWII (they had particular weapons), what you'd call "age appropriate", and it inspired me as a kid to become creative and use my ability to write, even then I loved to write ("the sunlight glinted off the cannon of the *insert official tank name here* as it rolled towards the enemy hiding in the nearby trench" - that may or may not have been how my story started, I only remember writing it, not specific details, but you get the idea).

My mother's a preschool teacher. Due to the age of the children she can only teach them very basic things. The alphabet, numbers 1-10, identifying farm animals. So I know that to teach you have to start ith the basics. And yeah, when you get to certain subjects (like World War II) kids are bought into them gently, only learning of the whole story when they get to the right age to be able to grasp the full concepts.

However, when it comes to religion, it's alot more tricky. Mum teaches basic religion to those kids too (not much just stuff like what the holidays are and when) but that's all you can do, the basics. And when teaching to kids you have to be objective in a way you don't have to be for other subjects. Like WWII, we know that happened. Believing it did or didn't won't change the fact that it did, sadly, happen. Whereas with religion, it's much more of a gray area. you have to be objective if you're teaching a child such things and I don't see that objectivity in you.

(I remember I wrote something too, a poem based on a completely diferent book about pond life.)

Quote

Likewise I think teaching my children age appropriate things about Jesus is acceptable.  As they develop they can learn deeper levels of my belief, and by the time they're 12 or 13 they probably have everything they need to know - Jesus' sacrifice, love, eternity, sin, judgement, repentance, Grace, and of course several well-known stories like David and Goliath and the like (though of course, as they develop further cognitive abilities, and move into High School, I'll start introducing them to more age appropriate stuff like the battle campaigns of the Israelites, including the death and destruction given out against other nations (just like learning about Auschwitz, there's an age appropriate time for this sort of thing).

Personally I think the whole thing comes over as a bad idea. You're starting off with the basic teaching that 'jesus is your friend'. At the same time, you'd be teaching them how to make friends and act around people. When they get to the age appropriate stuff, especially the more extreme stuff they may turn to you and go 'dad, you said jesus was my friend,so why does he act in a way that you have always taught me is not the way to act with my friends?' And then you're stuck with the tricky problem of trying to justify that. I only say this because I'm known people bought up in christian homes in the way you say and there always comes to a point like that here it falls apart because jesus acting in a way a friend is not supposed to does not compute as being correct and it all starts to unravel.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#469    Paranoid Android

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 11:35 AM

View Postshadowhive, on 04 June 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

The ones I've seen didn't have uch activities, but was focussed on bible readings and such which... well. Expecting a kid to understand many of the bible stories is a bit ,uch
Oh, they don't ignore the Bible here.  I've never sat in a Sunday School class before to see what they go through before they come back to the congregation carrying arts and crafts to show their parents, but I know that we are a Bible based church and therefore we would teach the Bible to the kids.  That would mean children's Bibles (I've seen some "comic Bibles" that leave out all the heavy stuff, make it like a comic book and have the characters with speech bubbles.  So they would have learnt about what the Last Supper was (Jesus' last night on earth before he died and later came back to life), and then they did some fun activities to strengthen their understanding of that.


View Postshadowhive, on 04 June 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

Ah. Well, like I say, it's all down to a person's choice. You may not like that a christian doesn't go to church regularly, but you can't actually do anything about it can you? Anymore than you could admonish people in liberal churches and force them to attend your own.

Ultimately we're all human and it's their choice to go or not and it's not your place to judge them for it is it?
You're right, it is entirely their choice.  And their choices will have an impact on the afterlife, and while I cannot speak for them personally (I don't know what their thought processes are) God does, and it's him who will judge.  As I said I can't imagine a Christian shunning the Bible's words to meet regularly without severely compromising their actual commitment to that belief.


View Postshadowhive, on 04 June 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

My mother's a preschool teacher. Due to the age of the children she can only teach them very basic things. The alphabet, numbers 1-10, identifying farm animals. So I know that to teach you have to start ith the basics. And yeah, when you get to certain subjects (like World War II) kids are bought into them gently, only learning of the whole story when they get to the right age to be able to grasp the full concepts.

However, when it comes to religion, it's alot more tricky. Mum teaches basic religion to those kids too (not much just stuff like what the holidays are and when) but that's all you can do, the basics. And when teaching to kids you have to be objective in a way you don't have to be for other subjects. Like WWII, we know that happened. Believing it did or didn't won't change the fact that it did, sadly, happen. Whereas with religion, it's much more of a gray area. you have to be objective if you're teaching a child such things and I don't see that objectivity in you.

(I remember I wrote something too, a poem based on a completely diferent book about pond life.)
So you understand my reasoning here, if not my agreement with the content.


View Postshadowhive, on 04 June 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

Personally I think the whole thing comes over as a bad idea. You're starting off with the basic teaching that 'jesus is your friend'. At the same time, you'd be teaching them how to make friends and act around people. When they get to the age appropriate stuff, especially the more extreme stuff they may turn to you and go 'dad, you said jesus was my friend,so why does he act in a way that you have always taught me is not the way to act with my friends?' And then you're stuck with the tricky problem of trying to justify that. I only say this because I'm known people bought up in christian homes in the way you say and there always comes to a point like that here it falls apart because jesus acting in a way a friend is not supposed to does not compute as being correct and it all starts to unravel.
What does Jesus do that friends don't normally do?

Edited by Paranoid Android, 04 June 2013 - 11:36 AM.

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My blog is now taking a new direction.  Dedicated to my father who was a great inspiration in my life, I wish to honour his memory (RIP, dad) by sharing with the world what he had always kept to himself.  More details, http://www.unexplain...showentry=27811

#470    shadowhive

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 12:22 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 04 June 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

Oh, they don't ignore the Bible here.  I've never sat in a Sunday School class before to see what they go through before they come back to the congregation carrying arts and crafts to show their parents, but I know that we are a Bible based church and therefore we would teach the Bible to the kids.  That would mean children's Bibles (I've seen some "comic Bibles" that leave out all the heavy stuff, make it like a comic book and have the characters with speech bubbles.  So they would have learnt about what the Last Supper was (Jesus' last night on earth before he died and later came back to life), and then they did some fun activities to strengthen their understanding of that.

To be honest, it all sounds very strange.

Quote

You're right, it is entirely their choice.  And their choices will have an impact on the afterlife, and while I cannot speak for them personally (I don't know what their thought processes are) God does, and it's him who will judge.  As I said I can't imagine a Christian shunning the Bible's words to meet regularly without severely compromising their actual commitment to that belief.

The problem is, you're working on the assumption that you know their thoughts and actions. Not only that but you're assuming what god would do to them, ssolely based on one thing. All of that sounds extremely... well.

Quote

So you understand my reasoning here, if not my agreement with the content.

I suppose. But I also don't see why a person shuld be made to believe something before they're emotionally mature enough to do so independantly.


Quote

What does Jesus do that friends don't normally do?

Well if you dismiss him he grants them eternal death. I'm sure you'd not teach your child that it'd be acceptable to kill someone who stopped being their friend or ignored them.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#471    Paranoid Android

Paranoid Android

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 01:13 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 04 June 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

To be honest, it all sounds very strange.
Why?


View Postshadowhive, on 04 June 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

The problem is, you're working on the assumption that you know their thoughts and actions. Not only that but you're assuming what god would do to them, ssolely based on one thing. All of that sounds extremely... well.
And yet I also admit that I am not able to Judge.  I will not judge.  Only God can judge.  I can point out possibilities, but they would not be made as direct accusations.  


View Postshadowhive, on 04 June 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

I suppose. But I also don't see why a person shuld be made to believe something before they're emotionally mature enough to do so independantly.
Which is the crux of our disagreement, so I guess we leave this discussion where it is.


View Postshadowhive, on 04 June 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

Well if you dismiss him he grants them eternal death. I'm sure you'd not teach your child that it'd be acceptable to kill someone who stopped being their friend or ignored them.
Of course I would not teach such.  But of course they would know that Jesus is "special".  He is not like Jason or Trung or Mohammed who is just their friend on earth.  Again this is part of age appropriate learning.  To know that friendship with Jesus is actually different from from friendship with others.  But as a start, at age appropriate points, I don't think bringing it up is actually that wrong.  But again, we agree on this, and that puts us right back where we were in the last post.

Edited by Paranoid Android, 05 June 2013 - 03:02 AM.

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My blog is now taking a new direction.  Dedicated to my father who was a great inspiration in my life, I wish to honour his memory (RIP, dad) by sharing with the world what he had always kept to himself.  More details, http://www.unexplain...showentry=27811




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