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Edward Snowden NSA whistleblower


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#106    spartan max2

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 03:18 PM

Everyone relax with the whole he is a Chinese spy stuff. The chinese have no reason to overthrow us, sure they probably spy on us just like we spy on them.

We are the two biggest trade partners in the world.

He went to hong kong because it is the safest place for him. China tends to not listen to U.S demands as much as the rest of the world.
Plus hong kong is part of china but it is way diffrent. It is kinda like its own country, or at least it use to be. its complicated.

" I imagine that the intellegent people are the ones so intellegent that they dont even need or want to look "intellegent" anymore".
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#107    spartan max2

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 03:21 PM

View PostThe world needs you, on 16 June 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

Meanwhile Snowden is considered a hero by Hong Kong. Some are attending rallies in favor of Snowden and calls to "arrest Obama". One sign had a picture of Snowden claiming he was "in" and another picture of Jackie Chan labeling him as "out".

The Chinese government meanwhile might want to keep Snowden to "interrogate" him. Will they do it nicely? Set him up in a state mansion in cushy luxury in exchange for his patronage? Or will they hold him in a small cramped cell and torture secrets out of him?

Also is the Chinese government allowing the citizens of Hong Kong to publicly gather and demonstrate as a distraction? Allow them to focus on Snowden and the US spying "on them" as a way to ramp up their own Chinese domestic efforts to expand their own spy-on-their-own-citizen programs? As a way to secretly continue their crackdown in liberties in Hong Kong?

So my questions is this: Does China usually allow citizens of Hong Kong to protest in such a fashion? If this was a protest against their own government instead of ours, a foreign power, would it be allowed? Does the Chinese government have any reservations now about the anti-US demonstrations?

Hong Kong is alot diffrent then main land china.

" I imagine that the intellegent people are the ones so intellegent that they dont even need or want to look "intellegent" anymore".
Criss Jami

#108    Spiral staircase

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 05:21 PM

View Postspartan max2, on 16 June 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:



Hong Kong is alot diffrent then main land china.

While that is fairly obvious what is not is how exactly are they different and what if anything is changing regarding such differences.

Care to elucidate in how exactly you believe they are different in the present and any changes you forsee?

Below are a couple of comments from Hongkongers themselves.

Quote

"It's quite ironic," Mo told the crowd of several hundred in a rainy plaza Saturday, "that Mr. Snowden thought Hong Kong is truly free and we have impeccable rule of law in this city. Those who are longtime residents here know that our freedoms are being stifled almost on a daily basis on every front, and our rule of law is facing all kinds of political challenges."

Notching up the wryness in her voice, she added: "So good luck to Mr. Snowden."

The former National Security Agency contractor and self-confessed secrets leaker might have been even more worried if he had read a recent op-ed by Law Yuk-kai, director of Hong Kong Human Rights Monitor.

"Since 1997, when the British government returned Hong Kong to China after getting assurances that this former colony's traditions of rule of law and individual freedom would be respected, the political, legal and human rights landscape here has become ever less conducive to the protection of civil liberties," he wrote. "Mr. Snowden's positive view of Hong Kong no longer matches the reality."

Snowden may not have realized it, but he has sought shelter in this city of 10 million at a particularly fraught time. A sizable contingent of residents here are fed up with their local government, which they regard as too beholden to officials in Beijing. They are chafing at what they see as mainland authorities' interference in areas such as education policy. Complaints are growing about harassment of journalists, attempts to control the media and a trend toward press self-censorship.

*snip*

But others note that the Snowden case could be a boon for the powers that be.

"Surely Snowden's praise for our city's freedoms can be turned into a slap in our pan-democrats' face if the Beijing loyalists play their cards right," commentator Michael Chugani wrote in the South China Morning Post.

"The democrats have long labeled Hong Kong as a society of shrinking freedoms under Chinese rule, hence the 'Occupy Central' movement for true democracy. But now an ex-CIA spy says we're freer than the U.S. Let's see how the loyalists are going to milk this."

http://www.latimes.c...0,1337287.story





#109    spartan max2

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 05:35 PM

View PostThe world needs you, on 16 June 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

While that is fairly obvious what is not is how exactly are they different and what if anything is changing regarding such differences.

Care to elucidate in how exactly you believe they are different in the present and any changes you forsee?

Below are a couple of comments from Hongkongers themselves.



http://www.latimes.c...0,1337287.story

As much as i trust the Los angeles times lol( sarcasm), I have to disagree. Yes they have been having goverment enroachment problems.  But much in the same way that the U.S has been.

Hong Kong is a Special Administrative District When the british let china have hong kong sometime in the 1990's the chinese took it over but made it this special administrative district, basically letting them rule themselves the way they want. Hence how the communist chinese got most of their money. Hong Kong is one of the most capitilast places in the world. China makes money off that, lots of it.

In the past years the chinese goverment has been takeing more and more power yes. But as you can see in Hong Kong they can still protest out on the street, cause they have that freedom. Unlike in maineland china.

Or you can listen to the U.S news that wants to make him look like a traitor for telling us that out goverment is spying on us :whistle:

http://wiki.answers...._Kong_and_China

http://www.businessw...hina-leung-says

My first source just sums it up and the second source is some current hong kong news which will give a glimpse of how there" two system one country" thing works.

Edited by spartan max2, 16 June 2013 - 05:44 PM.

" I imagine that the intellegent people are the ones so intellegent that they dont even need or want to look "intellegent" anymore".
Criss Jami

#110    questionmark

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 05:42 PM

View PostWickian, on 10 June 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

He said that he didn't do it for others, he did it for himself.  He doesn't want to live in the world we're finding ourselves in and sacrificed his career, and possibly freedom, to try and change it.

And that is what I suspect too, the problem is that once you blew the whistle on some organizations you have no chance but to have a few aces up your sleeve, in this case it was the spying methods used on the Chinese. In the US nobody would have moved a finger to stop him from being thrown into the deepest hole in Leavenworth.

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#111    pallidin

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 05:58 PM

Knowingly divulging "state secrets" is a treasonable crime in many(if not all) countries.

Penalties can range from many years or life in prison, to even death, depending on assessed damage and country national security violation penalties.

What IS clear is that he committed a treasonous act under US law. That is not EVEN in question within the bi-partisan Select Committee on Intelligence.

He is a total dipweed, and I hope he stands trial.

In the "old days", given his confession and abundant evidence of guilt, he would not even make it to trial in many countries.

Oh, and besides being a traitor, he is also a coward, because he ran instead of "lawyering-up" and standing his ground in the US.

What a dipweed.


#112    Babe Ruth

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 06:34 PM

I think I asked you before Palladin, and didn't get an answer: what part of "no warrant shall issue except upon probable cause" do you not understand?

In which reality is it a crime to reveal government crimes? :innocent:


#113    Glorfindel

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 07:40 PM

View Postpallidin, on 16 June 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

Knowingly divulging "state secrets" is a treasonable crime in many(if not all) countries.

Penalties can range from many years or life in prison, to even death, depending on assessed damage and country national security violation penalties.

What IS clear is that he committed a treasonous act under US law. That is not EVEN in question within the bi-partisan Select Committee on Intelligence.

He is a total dipweed, and I hope he stands trial.

In the "old days", given his confession and abundant evidence of guilt, he would not even make it to trial in many countries.

Oh, and besides being a traitor, he is also a coward, because he ran instead of "lawyering-up" and standing his ground in the US.

What a dipweed.

Ignoring and violating the Constitution is an act of treason under US law. The People are the nation, not the "government".

Edited by Glorfindel, 16 June 2013 - 07:41 PM.


#114    Ashotep

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 01:17 AM

I don't think Hong Kong will be turning him over.  The people of Hong Kong took to the streets in support of him.

http://www.cbsnews.c...lcoming-refuge/


#115    Spiral staircase

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 01:30 AM

View PostHilander, on 17 June 2013 - 01:17 AM, said:

I don't think Hong Kong will be turning him over.  The people of Hong Kong took to the streets in support of him.

http://www.cbsnews.c...lcoming-refuge/

So you believe China listens to what its people want?

Besides being a special administrative region (like Macau) we all know Beijing is going to decide either way. If they want to deal with us and return him they will. If they want to bargain with us for him they will. If they want to keep him they can either say, "no, we won't return him, he is ours," or they could "pretend" to allow the Hongkongese courts decide (as a way to slow it down or deny our extradition request) but in the end it will be Beijing's decision. That is my view.

Do you believe Hong Kong and their courts will actually have the final say?

Because we are eventually going to ask for him back...

Keep in mind if he already is a Chinese spy they (Beijing) could just get rid of him (already having juiced him) and make it look "suspicious" and claim we sent in our own agents to off him "on their land" and then act all like the innocent victims who had no part in any of it other than to say, "wtf America spies on us then sends in agents to assassinate someone on our land."

They also want Taiwan back.

Edited by The world needs you, 17 June 2013 - 01:35 AM.


#116    pallidin

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 03:26 AM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 16 June 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

I think I asked you before Palladin, and didn't get an answer: what part of "no warrant shall issue except upon probable cause" do you not understand?

In which reality is it a crime to reveal government crimes? :innocent:

You call it a "government crime", whereas the facts simply do not support that notion, as the program was reviewed for Bill of Rights violations prior to inception, and none was found, then subsequently approved by the bi-partisan Select Commitee's on Intelligence(House and Senate)

However, I know you're not a big fan of any government, so that was for other's whom recognize the importance.

In any event, the collection of Meta-data is not new.The Census, insurance companies questionaires, etc are examples, and is not illegal.

What's done with Meta-data is the question.

With the secret programs at issue here, a judicial warrant IS REQUIRED to go further with Meta-data analysis, and probable cause IS REQUIRED, so that completely knocks-out your first insinuation that this amounts to a warrantless search.

I know that these TRUTHS do not satify you, but oh well.

EDIT: Oh yeah... NO, it is not a crime to reveal government crimes(in the US) , but the accuser MUST TAKE STEPS TO PROVE that a crime was commited, otherwise it's just speculative "hot air"

Edited by pallidin, 17 June 2013 - 03:42 AM.


#117    glorybebe

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 03:35 AM

View PostThe world needs you, on 13 June 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:



Doesn't this seem insincere?

Isn't that what is being done here?

Instead of commenting on the information presented regarding Snowden a couple few just want to focus on our fellow poster...

Keep in mind this thread is about Snowden himself. Discussing him seems in order. Do you have another view of Snowden himself than what is being presented?
What it looks like is a smear compaign to make Snowden look like an antisocial freak rather than looking at the good he did.  If I was a conspiracy theorist, I would question who you worked for.....

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#118    Yamato

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 04:46 AM

Hong Kong is one of the freest and happiest places on earth.   Far different lifestyle than mainland China, although China is learning and progressing towards a freer and freer society while America is going the other way.

I'll let Ron Paul say it all about Snowden!


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#119    Babe Ruth

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 01:07 PM

View Postpallidin, on 17 June 2013 - 03:26 AM, said:

You call it a "government crime", whereas the facts simply do not support that notion, as the program was reviewed for Bill of Rights violations prior to inception, and none was found, then subsequently approved by the bi-partisan Select Commitee's on Intelligence(House and Senate)

However, I know you're not a big fan of any government, so that was for other's whom recognize the importance.

In any event, the collection of Meta-data is not new.The Census, insurance companies questionaires, etc are examples, and is not illegal.

What's done with Meta-data is the question.

With the secret programs at issue here, a judicial warrant IS REQUIRED to go further with Meta-data analysis, and probable cause IS REQUIRED, so that completely knocks-out your first insinuation that this amounts to a warrantless search.

I know that these TRUTHS do not satify you, but oh well.

EDIT: Oh yeah... NO, it is not a crime to reveal government crimes(in the US) , but the accuser MUST TAKE STEPS TO PROVE that a crime was commited, otherwise it's just speculative "hot air"

No Pallidin, there ARE NOT warrants under PRISM.  There is NO PROBABLE CAUSE.

As you are asserting that there is either, please provide proof.

It's quite clear that this megadata is gathered on everybody and anybody, without a warrant and with no probable cause.

You can fool yourself into thinking there is, but I'm perhaps paying closer attention than you are.


#120    Spiral staircase

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 01:09 PM

Snowden is now turning toward telling how the UK spied on all the other countries who visited the 2009 G20 meeting in London, England.

So, how would he even have this information? Seems a bit far-fetched from a low level private contractor analyst and this could disrupt global affairs as well as hurt our allies.

This is revealed right as a G8 meeting begins, also in the UK, this time in Northern Ireland. His "America spies on China" leak also had suspicious timing around the Sunnylands meeting between Obama and Xi Jinping.

Quote

Foreign politicians and officials who took part in two G20 summit meetings in London in 2009 had their computers monitored and their phone calls intercepted on the instructions of their British government hosts, according to documents seen by the Guardian. Some delegates were tricked into using internet cafes which had been set up by British intelligence agencies to read their email traffic.

The revelation comes as Britain prepares to host another summit on Monday – for the G8 nations, all of whom attended the 2009 meetings which were the object of the systematic spying. It is likely to lead to some tension among visiting delegates who will want the prime minister to explain whether they were targets in 2009 and whether the exercise is to be repeated this week.

The disclosure raises new questions about the boundaries of surveillance by GCHQ and its American sister organisation, the National Security Agency, whose access to phone records and internet data has been defended as necessary in the fight against terrorism and serious crime. The G20 spying appears to have been organised for the more mundane purpose of securing an advantage in meetings. Named targets include long-standing allies such as South Africa and Turkey.

There have often been rumours of this kind of espionage at international conferences, but it is highly unusual for hard evidence to confirm it and spell out the detail. The evidence is contained in documents – classified as top secret – which were uncovered by the NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden and seen by the Guardian. They reveal that during G20 meetings in April and September 2009 GCHQ used what one document calls "ground-breaking intelligence capabilities" to intercept the communications of visiting delegations.

This included:
• Setting up internet cafes where they used an email interception programme and key-logging software to spy on delegates' use of computers;
• Penetrating the security on delegates' BlackBerrys to monitor their email messages and phone calls;
• Supplying 45 analysts with a live round-the-clock summary of who was phoning who at the summit;
• Targeting the Turkish finance minister and possibly 15 others in his party;
•  Receiving reports from an NSA attempt to eavesdrop on the Russian leader, Dmitry Medvedev, as his phone calls passed through satellite links to Moscow.

*snip*

GCHQ intercepted foreign politicians' communications at G20 summits / Exclusive: phones were monitored and fake internet cafes set up to gather information from allies in London in 2009

Edited by The world needs you, 17 June 2013 - 01:50 PM.





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