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[Merged] Gobekli Tepe


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#136    Abramelin

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 07:04 PM

I have posted that I am of the opinion that several of the mentioned sites had some sort of a death cult. Either they buried their dead in a special way (maybe they actually slaughtered their dead to feed the vultures) in their temples (or whatever we should call those circular buildings), or they sacrficed people/captives to their vulture god (or they did it both).

Such a culture could have been abhorred by others, maybe enemies, and these other people may have decided to either destroy the temples or bury them in a mound of dirt.

But what did eventually happen to this culture? Did it die out or did it move elsewhere to continue some form of their practise?

Then I had to think of the Parsi, Zoroastrians, who still give their dead a socalled open air burial which means they put their dead on a high and artificial platform, a circular temple on some mound or mountain:

Posted Image

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakhma

I think it was some 30+ years ago when I watched a black&white documentary about their burial practice. It was a gloomy, creepy, and dark movie, stuff nightmares are made of:  a corpse was brought into a circular building, a guy butchering the corpse into smaller pieces, and then masses of vultures fighting with eachother to get the most juicy pieces.

But these Zoroastrians are of much more recent times, right?

Well, the ancients thought differently:

The Zoroastrian Faith: Tradition and Modern Research
By 0 Nigosian


page 15:

Posted Image

http://books.google....lutarch&f=false



==


Goddess from Anatolia; volume one - James Mellaart, Udo Hirsch and Belkis Balpinar

Posted Image
Questionable reconstruction “vulture shrine”

http://www.rugkazbah...879&refnum=1879

Attached Files


Edited by Abramelin, 01 October 2012 - 07:44 PM.


#137    Harte

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 07:53 PM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 24 September 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

Now Gobekli Tepe has opened a whole Pandora's box and the only way mainstream historians can digest the dates is by calling it a one-off temple made by hunter gathers and not really a sign of civilization.But if Gobekli Tepe is not the evidence for a decently advanced civilization with a culture and relegion then what in the world is considered a sign of civilization i do not know?
That last part is obvious.

I mean, you obviously don't know the meaning of the term "civilization" in the Anthropological context.

So learn this.  The term "civilization" is a scientific term to Anthropologists.  Though there is not a single, set  definition for it, there are certainly hallmarks associated with calling a culture a civilization.  At least, in Anthropology.

The cultures that are associated with these ancient sites do not exhibit the hallmarks of what Anthropology calls a civilization.

So, you want them to call them a civilization anyway.

And it upsets you that they don't?

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 24 September 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

Hunter gatherers toiling hard to built such a hugh megalithic structure as a replacement for their caves is one the most stupid answer i have got for this question.
One thing I've learned here is that the more stupid people you talk to, the more stupid answers you'll get.

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#138    Abramelin

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 08:02 PM

View PostHarte, on 01 October 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:


The cultures that are associated with these ancient sites do not exhibit the hallmarks of what Anthropology calls a civilization.



Harte

I did hope I posted more than enough for you and anyone else to understand this wasn't just some 'culture'.

To me it looks like a real civilization.


#139    Macroramphosis

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 08:31 PM

Abramelin, whether civilization or culture, wasn't Zoroaster a figure more associated with the eastern part of Iran (or even Afghanistan), as such ? What connection are you trying to make here (beside the possibility of sky burials being practised in disparate locations) ? Are you trying to say that these people were Zoroastrians ? If you are, there is an intriguing point that the Gathas (the sacred texts of Zoroastrians) described a bipartite society from this era composed of priests and pastoralists, living in small organised, structured tribes or groups. Not a warrior in sight, eh ? The only question remains, how far west from Iran did the culture spread ?

Edited by Macroramphosis, 01 October 2012 - 08:40 PM.

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#140    Abramelin

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 09:13 PM

View PostMacroramphosis, on 01 October 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

Abramelin, whether civilization or culture, wasn't Zoroaster a figure more associated with the eastern part of Iran (or even Afghanistan), as such ? What connection are you trying to make here (beside the possibility of sky burials being practised in disparate locations) ? Are you trying to say that these people were Zoroastrians ? If you are, there is an intriguing point that the Gathas (the sacred texts of Zoroastrians) described a bipartite society from this era composed of priests and pastoralists, living in small organised, structured tribes or groups. Not a warrior in sight, eh ? The only question remains, how far west from Iran did the culture spread ?

I was trying to say that these people from Anatolia may have fled to or moved to Iran and India.

There they developed a new culture, a culture (or religion)  we now call "Zoroastrianism".

There they still practiced their 'death cult', but somewhat adapted.


#141    lightly

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 01:16 AM

Very interesting Abramelin.  I'm glad you resurrected the thread.     I read somewhere...   Some professional type person proposed  the idea that People from the eastern end of the  mediterranean moved inland when the area we're talking about changed from cold and dry to warmer and wetter.   Which would be  near the time of Gobekli's initial construction?
   It's not all deduced  where these people came from or where they went?

  As for  vultures...   I'd be more likely to believe in , instead of  a death cult,  some sort of Life after death cult?  With vultures delivering the beloved to the heavens   EYES  first!    I think vultures tend to take the eyes of the departed first.. followed by innards.. like the HEART.

Instead of priests "slaughtering people to feed vultures"..  maybe it was more like venerating the vultures and helping them take the departed to the heavens by placing them on platforms?

       I wonder if vultures may have played such a significant role in belief systems that images of their wings were still being used in Sumerian  etc.  Iconography?    ..  we see wings in later cultures too..  didn't the Egyptians still make a big deal about vulture wings?

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#142    Macroramphosis

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 04:34 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 01 October 2012 - 09:13 PM, said:

I was trying to say that these people from Anatolia may have fled to or moved to Iran and India.

There they developed a new culture, a culture (or religion)  we now call "Zoroastrianism".

There they still practiced their 'death cult', but somewhat adapted.

Isn't it more likely that it was the other way round, Abramelin ? That the migration route was east to west at this time, leading as you say to Crete and then the Aegean ?  I just wonder how an Anatolian bipartite society (which seemed non-violent and without weapons) would cope if it wandered eastwards into Iran via Iraq, which was on the way to becoming "Ubaidinized", to coin a term. Interestingly, the Ubaidians, who came to the fore from 5,550BC or so, were also mainly agriculturists, though it is thought that they may have been the source of the Sumerian language, from what I have read.  If this is so, or partly so, then can a link be made linguistically between the Anatolian cultures we have been discussing here and the Zoroastrians much further east, on the far side of this proto-Euphratian/Ubaidian development ? Just curious, and probably talking through my hat.

:unsure2:

Edited by Macroramphosis, 02 October 2012 - 04:35 AM.

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#143    Abramelin

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 07:00 AM

View PostMacroramphosis, on 02 October 2012 - 04:34 AM, said:

Isn't it more likely that it was the other way round, Abramelin ? That the migration route was east to west at this time, leading as you say to Crete and then the Aegean ?  I just wonder how an Anatolian bipartite society (which seemed non-violent and without weapons) would cope if it wandered eastwards into Iran via Iraq, which was on the way to becoming "Ubaidinized", to coin a term. Interestingly, the Ubaidians, who came to the fore from 5,550BC or so, were also mainly agriculturists, though it is thought that they may have been the source of the Sumerian language, from what I have read.  If this is so, or partly so, then can a link be made linguistically between the Anatolian cultures we have been discussing here and the Zoroastrians much further east, on the far side of this proto-Euphratian/Ubaidian development ? Just curious, and probably talking through my hat.

:unsure2:

It's kind of hard to connect the Anatolians with the Zoroastrians based on linguistics alone.

Although - as I posted earlier in this thread - Anatolia is now seen as the point of origin for PIE, it doesn't mean we know what language they actually spoke. For that we need at least a lot of inscriptions in their language together with inscriptions in a known language (a 'Rosetta Stone').

Anyway, it would be great to see writing that old, 11-9000 years old....

The only connection we can discover right now is by means of genetics and cultural artifacts.


#144    Abramelin

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 07:19 AM

View Postlightly, on 02 October 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

Very interesting Abramelin.  I'm glad you resurrected the thread. I read somewhere...   Some professional type person proposed  the idea that People from the eastern end of the  mediterranean moved inland when the area we're talking about changed from cold and dry to warmer and wetter.   Which would be  near the time of Gobekli's initial construction?
   It's not all deduced  where these people came from or where they went?

  As for  vultures...   I'd be more likely to believe in , instead of  a death cult,  some sort of Life after death cult?  With vultures delivering the beloved to the heavens   EYES  first! I think vultures tend to take the eyes of the departed first.. followed by innards.. like the HEART.

Instead of priests "slaughtering people to feed vultures"..  maybe it was more like venerating the vultures and helping them take the departed to the heavens by placing them on platforms?

   I wonder if vultures may have played such a significant role in belief systems that images of their wings were still being used in Sumerian  etc.  Iconography? ..  we see wings in later cultures too..  didn't the Egyptians still make a big deal about vulture wings?

From what I read the area we are talking about was wet and green (but warm?) right after (and at the end of) the last ice age. Several thousands of years later the area starting looking as it does now: dry and arid. That may have caused - among other things - to set people on the move to the west and the east, north and south.

--

OK, I called it a 'death culture', but you can call it 'afterlife culture' or whatever. If the vultures and the decapitated heads and the ritual sacrifices and the burials of ancestors inside their houses tell us anything, then it is that these people were obsessed with death and dying, and yeah, the afterlife.

-

Are the Egyptian and Sumerian cultures distant echos of their culture? I think we all would like to  know, but since excavations started only several decades ago, we will probably have to wait for another couple of decennia.


#145    lightly

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 10:44 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 02 October 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

From what I read the area we are talking about was wet and green (but warm?) right after (and at the end of) the last ice age. Several thousands of years later the area starting looking as it does now: dry and arid. That may have caused - among other things - to set people on the move to the west and the east, north and south.

--

OK, I called it a 'death culture', but you can call it 'afterlife culture' or whatever. If the vultures and the decapitated heads and the ritual sacrifices and the burials of ancestors inside their houses tell us anything, then it is that these people were obsessed with death and dying, and yeah, the afterlife.

-

Are the Egyptian and Sumerian cultures distant echos of their culture? I think we all would like to  know, but since excavations started only several decades ago, we will probably have to wait for another couple of decennia.


  thanks Abramelin.       didn't it turn from cold and dry to warmer and wetter about 12,000  years ago?  ...  Work calls  .. so i might not see your answer for awhile.

Oh.. and remember,  the decapitated heads were determined to be postmortem .  So  what could look like sacrificial Sacrifice to some .. might be a practice done out of great respect for the dead.   I would guess,  since there is only so much room Under a temple,,  that the space there was reserved for,   If found,  highly important people, and the rest got also got a respectful sendoff ,, via Vultures?      What they did to an enemy is anybody's guess?

Edited by lightly, 02 October 2012 - 10:51 AM.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#146    docyabut2

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 11:26 AM

They dated the site by the stones tools that were found near by. If the whole site was buried would`nt the  tools of  9000 bc be in the fillings?  No graves or tombs have been found yet to really date it.  


The archaeologists did find evidence of tool use, including stone hammers and blades. And because those artifacts closely resemble others from nearby sites previously carbon-dated to about 9000 B.C., Schmidt and co-workers estimate that Gobekli Tepe's stone structures are the same age.

Read more: http://www.smithsoni...l#ixzz288gzPygc


#147    Harte

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:22 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 01 October 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

I did hope I posted more than enough for you and anyone else to understand this wasn't just some 'culture'.

To me it looks like a real civilization.
Personal opinions aside, the site has yet to yeild evidence for the hallmarks of what Anthropology would call a civilization.

Doesn't mean that it won't.  Only that, so far, it has not.

Of course, they may have had all the hallmarks (or enough of them) but didn't leave evidence of it.

Harte

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#148    Abramelin

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:37 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 02 October 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

They dated the site by the stones tools that were found near by. If the whole site was buried would`nt the  tools of  9000 bc be in the fillings?  No graves or tombs have been found yet to really date it.  


The archaeologists did find evidence of tool use, including stone hammers and blades. And because those artifacts closely resemble others from nearby sites previously carbon-dated to about 9000 B.C., Schmidt and co-workers estimate that Gobekli Tepe's stone structures are the same age.

Read more: http://www.smithsoni...l#ixzz288gzPygc

http://en.wikipedia....kli_Tepe#Dating


#149    Abramelin

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:41 PM

View PostHarte, on 02 October 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

Personal opinions aside, the site has yet to yeild evidence for the hallmarks of what Anthropology would call a civilization.

Doesn't mean that it won't.  Only that, so far, it has not.

Of course, they may have had all the hallmarks (or enough of them) but didn't leave evidence of it.

Harte

I know this thread was originally about Göbekli Tepe, but I added finds from other, similar aged places in Anatolia.

Several of these sites show signs of mutual contact, and because they are all of about the same age I started thinking about more than just a culture.


#150    Macroramphosis

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:42 PM

Harte - what sort of further "hallmarks" are needed, as a matter of interest ?

Abramelin - I see that Colin Renshaw hypothesises that PIE may have 7th century Anatolian origins, I was still thinking that the origins were further east. In which case, by just PIE relation we can hypothesise a lot.

As for "sky burials", I was always under the impression that many cultures worldwide practiced some form of this in Palaeolithic or neo-Palaeothic times. It might not have been with the same clinical overtones, and with the same religious fervour that some cultures practice it today, or even with specific structures upon which it was practiced, but it seemed common enough, even if in some instances wild animals were also the architects of the practice as well as vultures. I'd class "sky burials" as being in the same branch of synchronicity as pyramids and wheels, for example. Many of these early cultures were astrologically religious, and it must have been natural for them to assume that the spirit and soul needed to go "up". I don't think it necessarily meant an obsession with death, but perhaps more a significant event in the cycle of life that needed attending to in the correct manner according to custom ?

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