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Famed Roman shipwreck reveals more secrets


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#46    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 05:08 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 16 February 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

As I told you a million times: It does not matter what you think, it matters what you can demonstrate. Archimedes "could" have build a atomic bomb, he had everything he needed....except the need. And that is what it always comes down to: Was there a need for large scale need for open water navigation? No? Then there was no need to break your head about exact time. Was there international quick long distance communication? No? Well then time was irrelevant, you got there when you got there and so on.

Things, all through history, have not been made because they could (or could not) but because there was an immediate benefit or a need for it.

Speculating on all that "could have happened beyond what is demonstrable" is an exercise for those without any meaningful tasks to occupy themselves with.I don't fall in that category.

Thats exactly where Im going. We found something like watch on ship. So I thought why not.
Also how do you know that there wasnt long distance communications?
Roman artifacts in Vietnam and Japan.
Greeks who went northen of UK.
Phoenicians and Chartageans...

I dont know but I learnt that there were big distance travels. Also can provide more info. It depends what do you found big distance travels.

Edited by the L, 16 February 2013 - 05:12 PM.

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#47    Frank Merton

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 05:15 PM

It looks as though the ancients could have had an industrial revolution but didn't.  Could widespread slavery have been a reason?


#48    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 05:19 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 16 February 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

It looks as though the ancients could have had an industrial revolution but didn't.  Could widespread slavery have been a reason?

Slavery was abolished after steam engiene. British empire abolished it. Some empires much earlier then BE. But credit goes to them.

@Questionmark,

You need to sail more to India then to America.

Edited by the L, 16 February 2013 - 05:19 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#49    questionmark

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 05:22 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 16 February 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

It looks as though the ancients could have had an industrial revolution but didn't.  Could widespread slavery have been a reason?

Slavery or not (because there were ancient civilization where slavery was not a economical factor, like ancient Egypt) it mostly did not happen because they were lacking the means of communication to sell in a large scale. If a pottery artisan can sell 50 vases a month he is not going to marter his brain how he can build 500. The typical example is the steam engine, the first functional one was build by a French guy named Papin (besides the Aeropile by Heron of Alexandria, of course), but that machine was a flop. 50 years later Watt did the same thing and advanced to millionaire.

View Postthe L, on 16 February 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

Slavery was abolished after steam engiene. British empire abolished it. Some empires much earlier then BE. But credit goes to them.

@Questionmark,

You need to sail more to India then to America.

And you have a coast to stick to all of the way. a very good navigation reference.

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#50    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 05:26 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 16 February 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

And you have a coast to stick to all of the way. a very good navigation reference.

Yes but Dutch sailed trough India ocean. Also do you know how Europeans reinvented way around Africa and  went step by step. And built pillars as they progressed.(Portugal). Clock might be useful.
Dutch use clock for that travel. And if you went once on open Med sea and use clock and found out adventages you can do copy paste tech on Ocean.

Also Britain is island. As Azores. As many others.

Vietnam seems far. Japan seems far.

Edited by the L, 16 February 2013 - 05:28 PM.

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#51    Frank Merton

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 05:27 PM

Oh I suspect its all very complicated, but Roman slavery as an institution disappeared about the same time Christianity became dominant and was replaced by serfdom, a completely different thing.  The later abolishments of slavery had to do with places where it had been reintroduced.  I think the lack of a need to develop labor-saving institutions and devices was the main reason.

Of course a number of inventions, such as the stirrup, the printing press, compasses, and who knows what may also have been necessary precursors.


#52    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 05:29 PM

Not to mentioned maps where we see Antartica and Australia before it was discovered or islands who are now submerged.

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#53    Everdred

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 05:32 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 16 February 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

.

The "ancients", especially the Romans and the Greeks left us lots of self adulation on how and what they did, I fail to see astronomy among them. But astrology was very common in Greece, where the exact hour is less relevant than the exact day. The ascendent theory was not introduced to astrology until the 17-18th century. And only there you need to know the hour. And as we see by the known machines, that is what they were used for: astrology, not astronomy.

The Ancient Greeks and Romans were quite advanced astronomers.  They made precise observations and developed astronomical models to explain observed phenomena, including models that dealt with complex problems like retrograde motion.  Of course they didn't quite get everything right, but they did remarkable work.

And note that water clocks were widespread in antiquity for use with astronomy and other applications.


#54    Frank Merton

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 05:35 PM

Now I would find maps showing Antarctica and Australia far more impressive if the other now-submerged islands hadn't been there.  That raises questions.


#55    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 05:37 PM

Only question is ...could it be that we re construct antikythera mechanism wrongly. Could it be that also have had time keeping and with it help sailors to know longitude.

View PostFrank Merton, on 16 February 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

Now I would find maps showing Antarctica and Australia far more impressive if the other now-submerged islands hadn't been there.  That raises questions.

I speak of different maps... Same as we call Bering straight Bering. And we all know it isnt.

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#56    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 05:39 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 16 February 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:


Of course a number of inventions, such as the stirrup, the printing press, compasses, and who knows what may also have been necessary precursors.

Steam engiene is invented BC.

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#57    questionmark

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 05:49 PM

View PostEverdred, on 16 February 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

The Ancient Greeks and Romans were quite advanced astronomers.  They made precise observations and developed astronomical models to explain observed phenomena, including models that dealt with complex problems like retrograde motion.  Of course they didn't quite get everything right, but they did remarkable work.

And note that water clocks were widespread in antiquity for use with astronomy and other applications.

Water clocks were not really precise enough, their dials were adequate to show 20 minutes time lapses and were not as common as you want to make us believe. In all of Greece there was demonstrably one. And there was a whole new law created for its use and the rights citizens had to inform themselves about the time.

After the Greek, the Alexandrian had a water clock 100 years before the first one came to Rome, in 10 AD erected by Augustus in the Campus Martius. Not until Trajan's reign (~100 AD) did it become fashionable to own a clock at all (no matter if sundial or water clock).

And the Roman time pieces were hardly precise, as they tried to divide the day (no matter if Summer or Winter) in 12 equal parts, something that never quite worked. By the time it occurred to somebody that day and night might have different hours the Roman empire was on a very steep decline.

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#58    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 05:57 PM

Questionmark do you think my idea have logic in it? :blink:

Edited by the L, 16 February 2013 - 05:57 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
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#59    questionmark

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 05:57 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 16 February 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Oh I suspect its all very complicated, but Roman slavery as an institution disappeared about the same time Christianity became dominant and was replaced by serfdom, a completely different thing.  The later abolishments of slavery had to do with places where it had been reintroduced.  I think the lack of a need to develop labor-saving institutions and devices was the main reason.

Of course a number of inventions, such as the stirrup, the printing press, compasses, and who knows what may also have been necessary precursors.

Not really, all you have to do to understand history is to follow the money. Things are seldom implemented  "for the hell of it". They are to achieve a gain.

View Postthe L, on 16 February 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

Questionmark do you think my idea have logic?

not very often.

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#60    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 05:59 PM

I know we dont agree about many things. I thought on this particular.
Could it be that we re construct antikythera mechanism wrongly, could it be that also have had time keeping and with it help sailors to know longitude?

Its more logic to have watch on ship then astronomical model.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."




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