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Demons, what are they?

fallen angels demons angels

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#166    danielost

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 10:17 PM

View PostJor-el, on 01 April 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:



I have another thread called "Does the Spirit world exist?" I'm sure there you will find a number of people there who would categorically disagree with you on that being the only fact.

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#167    Star of the Sea

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 10:18 PM

View PostJor-el, on 01 April 2013 - 09:55 PM, said:

Yes, I could classify it as that, although some opinions might differ. Footsoldiers do the hard work.

The RCC see that the Greek daimon has come to mean the same as devil and means 'evil spirit or fallen angel.'

Greek daimon and daimonion, Latindaemonium)

In Scripture and in Catholic theology this word has come to mean much the same as devil and denotes one of the    evil spirits  or fallen angels  . And in fact in some places in the New Testament where the Vulgate, in agreement with the Greek, has daemonium, our vernacular versions read devil. The precise distinction between the two terms in ecclesiastical usage may be seen in the phrase used in the decree of the Fourth Lateran Council: "Diabolus enim et alii daemones" (The devil and the other demons), i.e. all are demons, and the chief of the demons is called the devil.

Now what you are saying is very interesting if you take a look at this:

But though the word demon is now practically restricted to this sinister sense, it was otherwise with the earlier usage of the Greek writers. The word, which is apparently derived from daio "to divide" or "apportion", originally meant a divine being; it was occasionally applied to the higher gods and goddesses, but was more generally used to denote spiritual beings of a lower order coming between gods and men. For the most part these were beneficent beings, and their office was somewhat analogous to that of the angels in Christian theology. Thus the adjective eydaimon "happy", properly meant one who was guided and guarded by a good demon. Some of these Greek demons, however, were evil and malignant. Hence we have the counterpart to eudamonia "happiness", in kakodaimonia which denoted misfortune, or in its more original meaning, being under the possession of an evil demon. In the Greek of the New Testament and in the language of the early Fathers, the word was already restricted to the sinister sense, which was natural enough, now that even the higher gods of the Greekshad come to be regarded as devils.
We have a curious instance of the confusion caused by the ambiguity and variations in the meaning of the word, in the case of the celebrated "Daemon" of Socrates. This has been understood in a bad sense by some Christian writers who have made it a matter of reproach that the great Greekphilosopher was accompanied and prompted by a demon. But, as Cardinal Manning clearly shows in his paper on the subject, the word here has a very different meaning. He points to the fact that both Plato and Xenophon use the form daimonion, which Cicero rightly renders as divinum aliguid, "something divine". And after a close examination of the account of the matter given by Socrates himself in the reports transmitted by his disciples, he concludes that the promptings of the "Daemon" were the dictates of conscience, which is the voice of God

http://www.newadvent...then/04710a.htm

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#168    euroninja

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 10:20 PM

I knew you would say that. You're right. Luke 22:31, Revelation 12:12, 2 Corinthians 4:4.

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#169    Jor-el

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 10:39 PM

View PostStar of the Sea, on 01 April 2013 - 10:18 PM, said:

The RCC see that the Greek daimon has come to mean the same as devil and means 'evil spirit or fallen angel.'

Greek daimon and daimonion, Latindaemonium)

In Scripture and in Catholic theology this word has come to mean much the same as devil and denotes one of the evil spirits  or fallen angels  . And in fact in some places in the New Testament where the Vulgate, in agreement with the Greek, has daemonium, our vernacular versions read devil. The precise distinction between the two terms in ecclesiastical usage may be seen in the phrase used in the decree of the Fourth Lateran Council: "Diabolus enim et alii daemones" (The devil and the other demons), i.e. all are demons, and the chief of the demons is called the devil.

Now what you are saying is very interesting if you take a look at this:

But though the word demon is now practically restricted to this sinister sense, it was otherwise with the earlier usage of the Greek writers. The word, which is apparently derived from daio "to divide" or "apportion", originally meant a divine being; it was occasionally applied to the higher gods and goddesses, but was more generally used to denote spiritual beings of a lower order coming between gods and men. For the most part these were beneficent beings, and their office was somewhat analogous to that of the angels in Christian theology. Thus the adjective eydaimon "happy", properly meant one who was guided and guarded by a good demon. Some of these Greek demons, however, were evil and malignant. Hence we have the counterpart to eudamonia "happiness", in kakodaimonia which denoted misfortune, or in its more original meaning, being under the possession of an evil demon. In the Greek of the New Testament and in the language of the early Fathers, the word was already restricted to the sinister sense, which was natural enough, now that even the higher gods of the Greekshad come to be regarded as devils.
We have a curious instance of the confusion caused by the ambiguity and variations in the meaning of the word, in the case of the celebrated "Daemon" of Socrates. This has been understood in a bad sense by some Christian writers who have made it a matter of reproach that the great Greekphilosopher was accompanied and prompted by a demon. But, as Cardinal Manning clearly shows in his paper on the subject, the word here has a very different meaning. He points to the fact that both Plato and Xenophon use the form daimonion, which Cicero rightly renders as divinum aliguid, "something divine". And after a close examination of the account of the matter given by Socrates himself in the reports transmitted by his disciples, he concludes that the promptings of the "Daemon" were the dictates of conscience, which is the voice of God

http://www.newadvent...then/04710a.htm

I would disagree in just two small parts (highlighted in red), but that is due to a lack of textual connections between demons and these higher divine gods and them being classified as divine beings. The wiser word would be spiritual beings not divine beings.

Divinity as such belongs to the gods and to God and these were actually known by another name, the bene elohim, "the sons of God" who were never connoted with demons. Some of them would actually be classed biblically as fallen angels.

Before God actually sparated Abram from the rest of the nations, these people typically communicated with the spirtual world and had spirit guides and spirit friends, many of whom were later worshipped in the form of idols, but these are not the "gods" of the ancient world, gods like Baal, Enki, or Marduk, they were rather personal and familial gods.

An ancient Hebrew word, Shedim describes them well.

Shedim is the Hebrew word for demons. The word shedim appears only twice (always plural) in the Tanakh, at Psalm 106:37 and Deuteronomy 32:17. It was possibly a loan-word from Akkadian in which the word sedu referred to a protective, benevolent spirit. Both times the term appears in the Tanakh, it deals with child or animal sacrifice to false gods that are called demons.[3] The word may also derive from the "Sedim, Assyrian guard spirits"[4] as referenced according to lore "Azael slept with Naamah and spawned Assyrian guard spirits known as sedim".[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shedim

Edited by Jor-el, 01 April 2013 - 10:50 PM.

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#170    Star of the Sea

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 10:51 PM

View PostJor-el, on 01 April 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

I would disagree in just two small parts (highlighted in red), but that is due to a lack of textual connections between demons and these higher divine gods and them being classified as divine beings. The wiser word would be spiritual beings not divine beings.

Divinity as such belongs to the gods and to God and these were actually known by another name, the bene elohim, "the sons of God" who were never connoted with demons. Some of them would actually be classed biblically as fallen angels.

Thanks Jor-el, there does seem to be some ambiguity to the terms. Now you've got my head in a whirl with throwing in: 'the sons of God' being classed as 'fallen Angels'. :D  Good stuff though!


oops: typo, meant ^being

Edited by Star of the Sea, 01 April 2013 - 11:26 PM.

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#171    Goddess_Lilith

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 11:24 PM

View PostJor-el, on 01 April 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:





I have another thread called "Does the Spirit world exist?" I'm sure there you will find a number of people there who would categorically disagree with you on that being the only fact.

I am denying they do or do not exsist. Have you read any of my posts or are you just understanding them? Bible verses are NOT fact and either are views and beliefs. You have failed at every.attempt to give any FACTS on what demons are is all my point is. I don't know that anyone can give absolute 100% facts on what they are. You DO NOT have facts and from the sounds of it, I don't know if you know what a FACT even is. I appreciate all the info you are able to provide about views and beliefs though. Thank you.


#172    Paranoid Android

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 04:46 AM

The following is from the top of the Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs section.  Posting Guidelines:

Quote

Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs
'Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs' board guidelines Please always respect the beliefs of other members - the bashing of specific religions, countries, races or belief systems is strictly disallowed. Several of the topics in this section cover some sensitive areas and it is important to respect the views of others; this means no flaming, no flamebaiting, no trolling and no personal attacks. We must also ask that members do not use the forums to promote or 'preach' their personal spiritual beliefs to others.

The Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs board is primarily aimed at discussing general topics pertaining to religion and spirituality, for skeptic vs believer style discussion and debate on the nature of spirituality themed topics please visit the Spirituality vs Skepticism board.
Of particular note is the final paragraph - this is not for skeptic-vs-believer style debates.  That doesn't mean that differences of opinion cannot happen, but continuous arguing over details detracts from the purpose of this section, so let's just take a step back and back to the topic of discussing demons

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Edited by Paranoid Android, 02 April 2013 - 04:50 AM.

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#173    CrimsonKing

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 07:10 AM

View PostGoddess_Lilith, on 01 April 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:

I am denying they do or do not exsist. Have you read any of my posts or are you just understanding them? Bible verses are NOT fact and either are views and beliefs. You have failed at every.attempt to give any FACTS on what demons are is all my point is. I don't know that anyone can give absolute 100% facts on what they are. You DO NOT have facts and from the sounds of it, I don't know if you know what a FACT even is. I appreciate all the info you are able to provide about views and beliefs though. Thank you.

I can see your way of thinking but i also have my own.Nothing against others who have their own firm beliefs,good and bad does not only apply to christians as im sure you know.I have not seen or read many of your posts as you have only 54,with as many topics as we have on UM it is understandable.

No i do not believe the bible to be some divine book as it was written and translated several times by man,some even translated it to control the masses.It also contains stories from others far older than its own religion.

I myself as i have said energy cannot die therefore i believe some amount of consciousness could be retained in some kind of spirit form (to be determined) what a spirit form really is.My own opinion is that maybe this left over energy can become transformed or manifest itself to whatever someone gives it enough meaning to be.Almost like the old spells of a glamour or in a way like the elm street movies where it took the power of belief to make it real.

For me there are enough mysteries in time and space (being as large a time and distance frame as i can comprehend) to wrap myself up in some form of organized religion theist or atheist (yes i consider atheist most,not all) a form of organization also.I do not need any other being here to see my views if they agree or disagree.When im gone im gone one way or the other none can do a damn thing about it   ;)

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#174    euroninja

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 09:24 AM

View PostCrimsonKing, on 02 April 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

No i do not believe the bible to be some divine book as it was written and translated several times by man,some even translated it to control the masses.It also contains stories from others far older than its own religion.

When im gone im gone one way or the other none can do a damn thing about it   ;)
You have a point there.


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#175    White Crane Feather

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 04:46 PM

View Postmarkprice, on 29 March 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:








Those are your posts so obviously you did not encounter actual entities but your theoretical versions which were easy ...
That is certainly a possibility. If there is some other sort of demon that I have never encountered, then I must concede that I cannot know about that in which I do not know about. But I'll say that my experiences cover most of what people describe as demonic experiences. People even come to me for help with their own. As of yet no powerful evil demons. On the contrary. I have learned that any entity aware enough to be so powerful must have become aware enough to rise above petty melovolance. Evil really is a biological construct built on primal instincts and control of others for some sort of gain. These motivations simply do not exist in spiritual form. Jealousy, rage, anger, subjugation, sadism etc etc... Can all be traced through evolutionary psychology and various branchings of habitual endorphin seeking. If demons exist, they must be a physical being like a powerful alien. They are not spirit beings. Spirit beings live above the chaos of physical reality. But no... I have not met them all, I have only come to understand an environment.  An environment where malovolance is a fish out of water.

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#176    Jor-el

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 08:42 PM

View PostGoddess_Lilith, on 01 April 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:

I am denying they do or do not exsist. Have you read any of my posts or are you just understanding them? Bible verses are NOT fact and either are views and beliefs. You have failed at every.attempt to give any FACTS on what demons are is all my point is. I don't know that anyone can give absolute 100% facts on what they are. You DO NOT have facts and from the sounds of it, I don't know if you know what a FACT even is. I appreciate all the info you are able to provide about views and beliefs though. Thank you.

I think one cannot actually "deny" both options, either you deny one, or you deny the other. Bible verses are as much fact as you will get while you are still alive. But how many times do we actually bother to listen to facts? They do not change your life, you can ignore them at will and still do what you want to do. Everybody has seen smokers lungs or warnings on cigarette packs, how many have actually stopped smoking because of that?

Facts don't change minds or lives...

The only fact we can quantify is that the spirit world exists and has beings in it that do not like us and want to destroy us, either through seduction or through lies.

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#177    euroninja

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 10:20 PM

View PostGoddess_Lilith, on 01 April 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:

You have failed at every.attempt to give any FACTS on what demons are is all my point is. I don't know that anyone can give absolute 100% facts on what they are. You DO NOT have facts and from the sounds of it, I don't know if you know what a FACT even is. I appreciate all the info you are able to provide about views and beliefs though. Thank you.
I offer you the Holy Spirit as a fact. We also have ruins of ancient cities underwater. The Dwarka ruin was Krishna's city. He fought the demon Naraka and his armies. The story is not christian but a christlike god on earth battled demons and we a tangible ruined city.

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#178    LocalLegend

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 06:00 PM

Consider String or M-theory. It gives rise to the notion of Multiple Dimensions with no fixed amount. If M-theory is correct that there is more than one "Reality" than I assert Why wouldn't there be another form of life capable of multi-dimensional consciousness? Just because Human Beings are vastly incapable of any awareness outside of this reality, why couldn't there be creatures capable of projecting a form and speaking in this one?
On contemplation there is speculation currently of Symbiotic and Parasitic Dimensions; I would assume that a "Demon" would be a creature capable of multi-dimensional awareness from a parasitic reality, one that feeds on some aspect of this one. Demon's have, supposedly, enticed people to commit heinous crimes. To feed on the act itself? The surprise of a new victim...eh whatever, M-theory opened the door to all sorts of silliness.

Edited by LocalLegend, 03 April 2013 - 06:01 PM.


#179    markprice

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 06:18 PM

View PostWoIverine, on 01 April 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

Liar?  Guess what, I've got a nicer term for you bub, I'll clue you in...it starts with douche and ends with bag. You can think whatever you want, I couldn't care less. If you're interested in learning anything new (which i seriously doubt because you come off as a complete closed minded tool) google is your friend. Like I said, I'm not here to spoon feed you, that's not my job, research things yourself, if you're interested. LEARN SOMETHING NEW, IT'S NOT THAT DIFFICULT. However, if you have zero energy or will to do so, then shut your mouth and remain ignorant.

And this is all you got: insults and zero information. You got nothing but lies there DB.

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#180    markprice

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 05:22 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 02 April 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

That is certainly a possibility. If there is some other sort of demon that I have never encountered, then I must concede that I cannot know about that in which I do not know about. But I'll say that my experiences cover most of what people describe as demonic experiences. People even come to me for help with their own. As of yet no powerful evil demons. On the contrary. I have learned that any entity aware enough to be so powerful must have become aware enough to rise above petty melovolance. Evil really is a biological construct built on primal instincts and control of others for some sort of gain. These motivations simply do not exist in spiritual form. Jealousy, rage, anger, subjugation, sadism etc etc... Can all be traced through evolutionary psychology and various branchings of habitual endorphin seeking. If demons exist, they must be a physical being like a powerful alien. They are not spirit beings. Spirit beings live above the chaos of physical reality. But no... I have not met them all, I have only come to understand an environment.  An environment where malovolance is a fish out of water.

The underlined is theory, good theory but still theory. I don't think they are aliens because they attach to earth in specific locations. This was all new to me and I had similar theories. They don't evolve like living things; they exist in a hierarchy from low level to what I wouldn't call a demon but a Devil. You could call this theory as well but when it hits you it is like nothing else on earth. There is nothing good about it. Pure pain and destruction in any way it chooses. It could not be stopped and I wasn't the first to try and fail. If it was in my house or something that would be another story but on its turf forget about it.

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