Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * - - 5 votes

[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
11638 replies to this topic

#9976    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,065 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005

Posted 06 February 2012 - 12:02 PM

View PostOtharus, on 06 February 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

Anyway, we have established, that the etymology Nehalennia => NY-HEL => new light is not a 19th century invention, as Jensma thought, but older than 1711.

I agree.

Btw, using the "Alting" from your screenshot, I found another, somewhat less older old source:

Vaderlandsche historie. Deel 1 - Jan Wagenaar, 1749

http://www.dbnl.org/...ade01_01-x1.pdf

And the next is nice:

Helen
fem. proper name, from Fr. Hélène, from L. Helena, from Gk. Helene, fem. proper name, probably fem. of helenos "the bright one."

http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

"New (and) bright" would be something like "neos helenos" in Greek (?).

.

Edited by Abramelin, 06 February 2012 - 12:31 PM.


#9977    Alewyn

Alewyn

    Remote Viewer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 537 posts
  • Joined:26 Jun 2010

Posted 06 February 2012 - 02:24 PM

View PostOtharus, on 04 February 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

I think the high relevance of my post about Ottema was missed.



If he wrote things like this to Over de Linden he may have talked like this too, in meetings of the Genootschap, informally, or who knows where and when.

It may have been a good thing to shut him up.

If only he would have listened to Cornelis and chosen a better translation of that little odd word in the creation myth...

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

I am happy with Alewyn's 2nd edition, but I must admit that I am disappointed that, despite my several posts here about it, he chose to copy the mistake from Ottema that was copied by Sandbach. It might seem to be a tiny detail, but it makes a huge difference.

Alewyn, can you explain?
Otharus,
I can possibly explain best by first referring to my interpretation of the OLB’s creation myth rather than to my translation.

To start with, I have no doubt that the old Fryans had their prejudices and political agendas like anybody else.  Fasta, the first Folk Mother or Matriarch after the 2193 BC disaster, had her own agenda. She wanted to make sure that nobody questioned her position or that of the Burgh Maidens or, as I called them in my translation, the “matrons”. As with most politicians, she had to do a bit of “spin” to convince others that she was “the chosen one”.

The OLB tried to create the impression that these pious matrons always worked in the best interest of the nation and they always had all the right answers. In studying the OLB, one come to realize, however, that these women only worked in their own best interest for the most part and in accordance with their own political views and agendas. Most of the Fryans’ setbacks and eventual demise was caused by these women’s narrow-mindedness  and self interest. The process was only temporarily halted when Friso arrived on the scene in ca 300 BC.

If you read between the lines, the so-called “divine sanction and fellowship” that Fasta enjoyed, as well as the creation myth was nothing other than her own concoction.

In my second edition on page 86, I tried to explain my view as follows:

"Fasta’s obviously strengthened her own hand by convincing the nation that she enjoyed divine sanction and fellowship:

Upon my servant Fasta I have placed my hopes. Therefore, you must accept her as your Honorary Mother. If you follow my advice, she will hereafter remain my servant as well as all pious matrons who succeed her. Then shall the lamp that I have lighted for you never be extinguished. Its light shall always illuminate your intellect, and you shall always remain as free from foreign domination as the sweet river-water from the salt water of the boundless sea.

She not only established or re-established a corpus of laws under the claimed guidance of Frya, but she also recreated their origins and ancient history:

This stands written on the walls of Fryasburgh in Texland. It also stands in Stavia and in Medeasblik:

“It was Frya’s day, and it was seven times seven years since Fasta was appointed as Folk Mother by Frya’s desire. The burgh of Medeasblik was ready, and a Burgh Matron was chosen. Fasta would light the new lamp and this was done in the presence of all the people, when Frya called from her watch-star so that every one could hear it:

“Fasta, take your stylus and write the things which I may not speak.’
Fasta did as she was told. Thus we, Frya’s children, discovered our earliest history”


You see, I believe that the OLB’s whole creation myth was nothing more than a figment of Fasta’s mind. Despite this “little white lie”, nevertheless, she and her successors always tried to project an image of purity and celibacy. To my mind, therefore, I  find Ottema and Sandbach’s  translation of the word “odd” to  “hatred” or “hate” (“haat” in Afrikaans) to be correct and not the sexual connotation you put to it. (If my recollection of your argument is correct).

Having said all this, I did not loose any sleep over it as the creation myth is obviously not factual.


#9978    The Puzzler

The Puzzler

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,343 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2007

Posted 06 February 2012 - 03:14 PM

heel stone - light stone?

Anyway, I was on another direction and came across this:

LANGUAGE LINK

In the 18th century, historians discovered exciting proof of Phoenician-Celtic ties. An ancient Roman dramatist, Titus Maccius Plautus (died 184 B.C.) wrote a play, the Penulus in which he placed then current Phoenician into the speech of one of his characters. In the 18th century, linguists noticed the great similarity between that Phoenician and the early Irish Celtic language. In the adjacent box is a sample given by historian Thomas Moore's, History of Ireland, showing the connection between these languages. Leading 18th and 19th century scholars, such as Gen. Charles Vallancey, Lord Rosse, and Sir William Betham, also wrote on this subject. Vallancey, for instance, speaks of, 'The great affinity found in many words, nay whole lines and sentences of this speech, between the Punic [Phoenician] and the Irish.' Famed historian, George Rawlinson, added that this and other inscriptions are 'READILY EXPLICABLE, IF HEBREW BE ASSUMED AS THE KEY TO THEM, BUT NOT OTHERWISE.'(Phoenicia, p. 327)

THE SIMILARITY BETWEEN THE EARLY IRISH-CELTIC AND THE SECOND CENTURY, B.C., HEBREW- PHOENICIAN LANGUAGE, AS SHOWN BY THE PENULUS OF PLAUTUS:

PHOENICIAN OF PLAUTUS:

Byth lym mo thym nociothii nel ech an ti daisc machon

Ys i do iebrim thyfe lyth chy lya chon temlyph ula.

EARLY IRISH-CELTIC:

Beth liom' mo thime nociaithe, niel ach an ti dairie mae coinne

Is i de leabhraim tafach leith, chi lis con teampluibh ulla.

In 1772, General Charles Vallancey, a leading Irish scholar of the day, published his famous work, Essay On The Antiquity Of The Irish Language, Being A Collation Of The Irish With The Punic (Hebrew) Language.-In his opening remarks he states, 'On a collation of the Irish with the Celtic, Punic, Phoenician and Hebrew languages, the strongest affinity, (nay a perfect Identity in very many Words) will appear, it may therefore be deemed a Punic-Celtic compound.' Vallancey continues, 'from the Hebrew proceeded the Phoenician, from the Phoenician, Carthaginian, or Punic was derived the Aeolian, Dorian and Etruscan and from these was formed the Latin ... Of the Roman Saxon capital letters, the Irish use but three, all the others bear a very great resemblance to the primitive Hebrew and Phoenician.' (p. 2-3) Modern language scholars have confirmed that there is a definite connection between the Celtic and Hebrew, as we have shown in our tract, Hebrew And English.

http://www.1335.com/hebrew.html

So, this is saying that Phoenician is very close to Irish/Celtic and postulates that Europe was colonised by many Hebrews, but how about if the Irish/Celtic was more original and it was taken into Phoenicia, because it seems strange that only one language is so close to Phoenician.
I know it does not appear to be OLB language but I've only glanced at it really, with a deeper look it could show similarities.
This next bit says how the Druids were very much like Phoenician preists, just as the OLB says, they were priests from Sidon, who had come into the Gauls basically and controlled them all.

There are many other examples, however, of customs linking the Celtic Druids specifically with Israel. English historian, Williain Borlase, in his Antiquities Of Cornwall (1754) presented many pages of such evidence: Druids worshipped but one God and allowed no graven images, identical to the Hebrews, and in contradistinction with almost all other ancient religions.

Consecration was by sprinkling with blood, as in the Old Testament Hebrew worship. Druid priests were clothed in white, similar to the Hebrew priest's white ephod; sacrificial victims were bled to death, and the blood was collected in basins which served to sprinkle the altars; bulls were sacrificed, and the image of a bull (the heraldic sign of the Hebrew tribe of Ephraim) was carried into war.'While they performed their horrid rites of human sacrifice, the drums and trumpets sounded without intermission, that the cries of the miserable victims might not be heard.' (Compare Jer. 7:31-32, the Hebrew/Phoenician place of human sacrifice was called Tophet, meaning 'the drum'). They prayed with uplifted, hands, examined entrails for necromancy, and held the oak in veneration. The Druids used the magic wand in imitation of Moses' rod, poured libations, sacrificed upon the tops of rocks, investigated truth by lots, anointed rock pillars with oil, and marked out boundaries with stones. (pp. 104-132, 161) In these and so many other distinctive ways, the religious customs of the Celts and Hebrews bear an unmistakable resemblance



The OLB actually appears to be saying Wralda IS the Hebrew God imo, especially all the Biblical type wording.
It's like it all went out, got twisted and mangled and came back in.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#9979    Otharus

Otharus

    Poltergeist

  • Closed
  • 2,400 posts
  • Joined:20 Sep 2010

Posted 06 February 2012 - 03:38 PM

View PostAlewyn, on 06 February 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

To my mind, therefore, I  find Ottema and Sandbach’s  translation of the word “odd” to  “hatred” or “hate” (“haat” in Afrikaans) to be correct and not the sexual connotation you put to it.
Thank you for your answer, Alewyn.

The word is OD, not ODD, and my interpretation is not necessarily "sexual".

I have argued that the translation into "hatred" is based on Latin, while the word has a very different meaning in Old-Saxon (ancestral inheritance, luck, etc.) and Old-Norse (spirit, life-force).

Now guess what languages are more related to Old-Frisian? Not Latin!

That Ottema insisted in this mistranslation is even more shocking, because Over de Linden (and later his son) pointed out the better translations to him.

OdL also warned Ottema that if you tell your children stories about hate, they will more probably start fighting, while if you tell them about love, they will grow up more lovingly. I will copy and translate that letter when I visit the archives next time.

Also look at the context: something enters the three women, and AFTER THAT they give birth to 12 sons and 12 daughters.

There has to be something seriously wrong with you, if you believe that "hate" can make a woman pregnant (or that the old Frisians educated their children that way).

Quote

Having said all this, I did not loose any sleep over it as the creation myth is obviously not factual.
A creation myth defines how people think about the origin of life.

In Ottema's mind, the translation of OD into "hate", resulted in fantasies about white supremacy and the extermination of all coloured peoples.

Here lies the major difference in the minds of Ottema and Over de Linden.

- - - - - -

And I must admit, that it also feels like an insult if you translate the word that is the origin of my family name (as you will understand) with "hate".

Edited by Otharus, 06 February 2012 - 03:50 PM.


#9980    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,065 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005

Posted 06 February 2012 - 04:06 PM

Long ago I posted abut the "Frisia seu De viris rebusque Frisiae" by Martinus Hamconius. I also posted screenshots frpm that book..

But here I found another real copy:

http://books.google....nepage&q&f=true

And another couple of screenshots (and look at the list of the Frisian 'pantheon') :

Attached File  PHRESIA_INDICA-HAMCONIUS.jpg   89.74K   12 downloads

Attached File  FRISIAN_GODS-HAMCONIUS.jpg   32.59K   12 downloads
Stauo/Stavo > Jupiter
Fosta > Mars
Snein > Sol
Harco > Hercules
Holler > Pluto
Freda > Venus
VValdach > Diana
Meda > Medea

.

Edited by Abramelin, 06 February 2012 - 04:15 PM.


#9981    The Puzzler

The Puzzler

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,343 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2007

Posted 06 February 2012 - 04:27 PM

View PostOtharus, on 06 February 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:


Also look at the context: something enters the three women, and AFTER THAT they give birth to 12 sons and 12 daughters.

There has to be something seriously wrong with you, if you believe that "hate" can make a woman pregnant (or that the old Frisians educated their children that way).


Danish[edit] EtymologyFrom Old Norse oddr.

Noun od c. (singular definite odden, plural indefinite odde)

1.sharp point


http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/od

Also 'ord':
Old English EtymologyProto-Germanic *uzdaz, from Proto-Indo-European *wes- (“stab”). Cognates with Middle Dutch ort (Dutch oord), Old High German ort (German Ort), Old Norse oddr (Icelandic oddur, Swedish udd, Danish od).

PronunciationIPA: /ord/
Noun ord m.

1.point (especially of a weapon)
2.point of origin, beginning
3.front; vanguard, chief

http://en.wiktionary...ord#Old_English



Thâ hja blât kêmon spisde Wr.alda hjam mith sina âdama; til thju tha maenneska an him skolde bvnden wêsa. Ring as hja rip wêron krêjon hja früchda aend nochta anda drâma Wr.aldas. Od trâd to-ra binna: aend nw bârdon ek twilif svna aend twilif togathera ek joltid twên. Thêrof send alle maenneska kêmen.

When the last came into existence, Wr-alda breathed his spirit upon her in order that men might be bound to him. As soon as they were full grown they took pleasure and delight in the visions of Wr-alda.
Hatred found its way among them.
They each bore twelve sons and twelve daughters—at every Juul-time a couple. Thence come all mankind.


How does anyone literally translate the sentence?

Od
trad
to-ra
binna

Trad is tricky but I found it on this page as: to drive - I thought it might be 'tried' at first...?
vadásinen
Close:  cf. *trád- ‘to drive’ and in some dialects also ‘to hunt’

binna=inside
http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-B.pdf


Could even say something like: (the origin/beginning - sharp point) (drove) (to-ra?) (inside)

Describing how one would conceive.

Edited by The Puzzler, 06 February 2012 - 04:32 PM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#9982    Otharus

Otharus

    Poltergeist

  • Closed
  • 2,400 posts
  • Joined:20 Sep 2010

Posted 06 February 2012 - 04:28 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 06 February 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

Stauo/Stavo > Jupiter
Fosta > Mars
Snein > Sol
Harco > Hercules
Holler > Pluto
Freda > Venus
VValdach > Diana
Meda > Medea
So, apart from "Medea", the supposed creators hardly used this source...

The word "snein" is still the common Frisian word for "sunday".


#9983    The Puzzler

The Puzzler

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,343 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2007

Posted 06 February 2012 - 04:29 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 06 February 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

Long ago I posted abut the "Frisia seu De viris rebusque Frisiae" by Martinus Hamconius. I also posted screenshots frpm that book..

But here I found another real copy:

http://books.google....nepage&q&f=true

And another couple of screenshots (and look at the list of the Frisian 'pantheon') :

Attachment PHRESIA_INDICA-HAMCONIUS.jpg

Attachment FRISIAN_GODS-HAMCONIUS.jpg
Stauo/Stavo > Jupiter
Fosta > Mars
Snein > Sol
Harco > Hercules
Holler > Pluto
Freda > Venus
VValdach > Diana
Meda > Medea

.
Cool, lol, I gotta look tomorrow because I can hardly hold my eyes open... :sleepy:
Look forward to checking it out more tomorrow though.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#9984    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,065 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005

Posted 06 February 2012 - 04:30 PM

View PostOtharus, on 06 February 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

So, apart from "Medea", the supposed creators hardly used this source...

The word "snein" is still the common Frisian word for "sunday".

Sorry, not done yet:

Commentatio de Druidis occidentalium populorum philosophis multo quam antea - Joannes Georgius Frickius filius,Albertus Frickius, 1744

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

Anyway able to read Latin?

Attached File  FRICKIUS.jpg   75.11K   10 downloads

++++++++


EDIT:

You missed "Fosta" in the list?

And how about this "Occo"?? A druid? It gets weirder every second.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 06 February 2012 - 04:33 PM.


#9985    Otharus

Otharus

    Poltergeist

  • Closed
  • 2,400 posts
  • Joined:20 Sep 2010

Posted 06 February 2012 - 04:35 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 06 February 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

1.sharp point
...
1.point (especially of a weapon)
2.point of origin, beginning
3.front; vanguard, chief
Interesting, I didn't know those.

Quote

... drâma Wr.aldas. Od trâd ...
Please, have a look at the original.
The point should be between DRAMA and WR.ALDA.S.
There is no point between WR.ALDA.S and OD.

Edited by Otharus, 06 February 2012 - 04:45 PM.


#9986    The Puzzler

The Puzzler

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,343 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2007

Posted 06 February 2012 - 04:42 PM

View PostOtharus, on 06 February 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

Interesting, I didn't know those.


Please, have a look at the original.
The point should be between DRAMA and WR.ALDA.S.
There is no point between WR.ALDA.S and OD.
I will do that asap in the morning but it does not seem to make sense if Wralda is part of the Od sentence because it leaves the prior sentence with no ending, vision of...what? if not Wralda?

Ring as hja rip węron kręjon hja früchda aend nochta anda drâma Wr.aldas. Od trâd to-ra binna:

You think it should be:  ......nochta anda drama. Wralda's Od trad etc

I will check the original out tomorrow but glad you found the translation of Danish od useful.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#9987    Otharus

Otharus

    Poltergeist

  • Closed
  • 2,400 posts
  • Joined:20 Sep 2010

Posted 06 February 2012 - 04:44 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 06 February 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

You missed "Fosta" in the list?
No, Fosta is male here, unlike the Roman Vesta.


#9988    Otharus

Otharus

    Poltergeist

  • Closed
  • 2,400 posts
  • Joined:20 Sep 2010

Posted 06 February 2012 - 04:48 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 06 February 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

You think it should be:  ......nochta anda drama. Wralda's Od trad etc
The expression "anda drama" is used more in the OLB; it means "in the(ir) dreams".

Wralda's od = wralda his od.


#9989    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,065 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005

Posted 06 February 2012 - 04:50 PM

View PostOtharus, on 06 February 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

No, Fosta is male here, unlike the Roman Vesta.

Yeah, I already told you many 'gods and men' got a sex-change before they were allowed to show up in the OLB.

Well, what about the "Occo" then?

.

Edited by Abramelin, 06 February 2012 - 04:50 PM.


#9990    The Puzzler

The Puzzler

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,343 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2007

Posted 06 February 2012 - 04:51 PM

I see: DRAMA.WR.ALDA.S OD TRAD TORA BINNA

OK, same anyway... (blah blah) nochta anda drama .wraldas sharp point drove ---- inside.

EDIT: in the(ir) dream, interesting.

Edited by The Puzzler, 06 February 2012 - 04:55 PM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...