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Is Israel an Apartheid state?


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#76    third_eye

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 12:40 AM

View Postand then, on 14 May 2013 - 12:35 AM, said:

Still no answers - just more misdirection.  It's like the hateful bleating of sheep -

answers ?

Posted Image

"no truer words ever spoken"

what do you know of hatred other than your own ?
sheep knows not hate ... but then again .... you would be one to hate sheep

Quote

' ... life and death carry on as they always have ~ and always will, only the dreamer is gone ~ behind the flow of imagination, beyond any effort to be still
dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions, only the dreamer is gone ~ the dream never ends
'

GIFTS WITH NO GIVER - a love affair with truth ~ Poems by Nirmala

third_eye ' s cavern ~ bring own beer


#77    and then

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 03:23 AM

View Postthird_eye, on 14 May 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

answers ?

Posted Image

"no truer words ever spoken"

what do you know of hatred other than your own ?
sheep knows not hate ... but then again .... you would be one to hate sheep
You don't know me.  You may, and I'm being generous, MAY understand what I say but I doubt it.  You are too busy with your checklist of why you hate anyone who stands up for a Zionist to really try to know me.  You assume I hate because I have the audacity to disrespect what you hold dear.  What does that say about you?  At least I'm honest enough to label my opinions as such and not expect the world to agree with everything I say.  If supporting the state of Israel is an example of hatred in your eyes then declare it so.  IOW show some guts instead of just whining.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#78    Erikl

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 05:59 AM

Quote

Propaganda eh? No sir!

Yep, propaganda. And you also seem to misread into your own quotes, as you've failed to understand the text that you've posted here. Basic Laws in Israel are an uncodified constitution. The lack of a written constitution, doesn't mean that a country or a government is free to do whatever it wants - also the existence of a constitution doesn't mean that a country is a democracy as well.
Also the fact Israel, just as the UK, New Zealand etc., has uncodified constitution as opposed to a single written document US-style, has nothing to do with the sinister, conspirative aspirations you allocate to it (to oppress etc.), but simply the result of Israel over pluralistic democracy and lack of agreement by most parts of its society on how that single document should look like. For the same reason, the average life span of a government in Israel is 2.5 years, even though each term is 4 - most governments just don't survive that long, because our current political system give too much stress on pluralism than on stability.

As for discrimination etc., in Israel - ofcourse it exists. It exists anywhere in the West. Is it any different in Israel than in other liberal democracies? ofcourse not. Does it amount to apartheid? ofcourse not. Does the fact that non-Christians need to live in a country with three crosses on its flag (St. George's, St. Andrews' and St. Patrick's) and sing "God save the queen" means there's an opressive religious regime in the UK opressing non-Christians? Does the Finnish Aliens Act which provides autmatic citizenship to every person of Finnish origin discriminates people that don't have Finnish origin? yep. Same as additional 31 countries in the world which provide Law of return immigration policy which obviously discriminates people that do not belong to that ethnic group.

Israel is no different in that. Trying hard, after you failed to propogate your "Israel is an apartheid state" lie, to make it appear otherwise, is pathetic at best.

Quote

Once upon a time Palestine had 600,000+ Jews and 1,300,000 million Palestinians... 750,000 Palestinians were expelled from their homes and lands. Then there was an electorate of 600,000+ Jews and 100,000+ Palestinians in the newly declared state of Israel. This self proclaimed "Jewish State and democracy" refused to grant these Palestinians the right of return their OWN homeland for time immemorial.
Let me fill in the blanks in your story. The "1947 invasion of Israel to Palestine" didn't happen. There was no Israel back then, and there was no Palestine state back then. It began as a civil war between two groups living under the British mandate in the region. It began after the UN decided on division of the land into two states. The violence was started by the Palestinian/Arab side, which wanted all the land, while the Jews happily agreed to their part. Let me also fill in more blanks for you - while some Palestinians might have been expelled, most of them fled under the promise of their leadership that they will soon be able to return not only to their homes, but to what would become the ghost towns that used to be the Jewish towns, after all the Jews would be murdered. Let me also fill in for you and the readers, that the Palestinians have called foreign militaries to invade into the land, thus have found themselves under Jordanian and Egyptian occupations until 1967.
And ofcourse let me also fill in yet another blank fact for you - at the same time some 600,000 Arabs left the land to the sorrounding Arab states, some 900,000 Jews were expelled from those Arab states and have found home in the newly founded Israel.

Ofcourse this nice little tale of ours got nothing to do with the lie you were reapeating previously, saying Israel wishes to occupy the Middle East and establish the biblical "Greater Israel" empire. If anything, again, Israel is the only country in the last several decades under several different administrations (some of them right wing) to give off land, some of it several times it's current size.

But isn't it nice to live in a dream world?

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#79    third_eye

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 06:09 AM

View Postand then, on 14 May 2013 - 03:23 AM, said:

You don't know me.  You may, and I'm being generous, MAY understand what I say but I doubt it.  You are too busy with your checklist of why you hate anyone who stands up for a Zionist to really try to know me.  You assume I hate because I have the audacity to disrespect what you hold dear.  What does that say about you?  At least I'm honest enough to label my opinions as such and not expect the world to agree with everything I say.  If supporting the state of Israel is an example of hatred in your eyes then declare it so.  IOW show some guts instead of just whining.

save your 'generosity' and don't embarrass yourself with your 'assumptions' about my 'hatred' with your 'honesty'

your hatred to anything not pro zionapartheid is what started you flinging accusations of anti antisemitism my way,
you don't show 'support' for a "state' of Israel" ... you support the murderous genocidal and ethnic cleansing of Muslims ...

at least I make an effort to know what I am 'whining' about ....
do you have the guts yourself to admit your incompetence in differentiating between 'nationalism' and 'atrocity' ?

Posted Image

I'd put up some links but you'll just ignore them ... I'll type some excerpts of the right honorable and revered Mr Albert Einsteins' letters but then you might find him not pro zion enough and embarrass us all and accuse him of antisemitism ....

Do I insist you 'agree' and 'respect' my views ?
Honestly ... your opinions on this topic is totally beyond any hope of comprehension except hate, it matters none to me .... when you accuse me of antisemitism ... you go too far ... at least have the guts and honesty to admit to it.

I would state my opinions again here but it would be a waste of time ... and that is my honest opinion without a shadow of assumptions.

Quote

' ... life and death carry on as they always have ~ and always will, only the dreamer is gone ~ behind the flow of imagination, beyond any effort to be still
dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions, only the dreamer is gone ~ the dream never ends
'

GIFTS WITH NO GIVER - a love affair with truth ~ Poems by Nirmala

third_eye ' s cavern ~ bring own beer


#80    Erikl

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 07:05 AM

Actually, Albert Einstein was a Zionist and was actually offered the position of the President of Israel. He declined for two reasons:
a) He was very old and feared for his health
B) He was more interested dedicating his last remaining years to science than to politics

From wikipedia:


"Einstein served on the Board of Governors of The Hebrew University of Jerusalem. In his Will of 1950, Einstein bequeathed literary rights to his writings to The Hebrew University, where many of his original documents are held in the Albert Einstein Archives.[30]

When President Chaim Weizmann died in 1952, Einstein was asked to be Israel's second president, but he declined, stating that he had "neither the natural ability nor the experience to deal with human beings."[31] He wrote: "I am deeply moved by the offer from our State of Israel, and at once saddened and ashamed that I cannot accept it."[32]"


Edited by Erikl, 14 May 2013 - 07:08 AM.

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#81    Erikl

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 07:18 AM

And even more quotes of Einstein about Zionism:

“Zionism springs from an even deeper motive than Jewish suffering. It is rooted in a Jewish spiritual tradition whose maintenance and development are for Jews the basis of their continued existence as a community.” (Manchester Guardian, October 12, 1929)

“Long before the emergence of Hitler I made the cause of Zionism mine because through it I saw a means of correcting a flagrant wrong.” (Letter to Jawaharlal Nehru, Prime Minister of India, June 13, 1947)
“The Jewish people alone has for centuries been in the anomalous position of being victimized and hounded as a people, though bereft of all the rights and protections which even the smallest people normally has...Zionism offered the means of ending this discrimination. Through the return to the land to which they were bound by close historic ties...Jews sought to abolish their pariah status among peoples.” (Letter to Jawaharlal Nehru, Prime Minister of India, June 13, 1947)


“Can Jewish need, no matter how acute, be met without the infringement of the vital rights of others? My answer is in the affirmative. One of the most extraordinary features of the Jewish rebuilding of Palestine is that the influx of Jewish pioneers has resulted not in the displacement and impoverishment of the local Arab population, but in its phenomenal increase and greater prosperity.” (Letter to Jawaharlal Nehru, Prime Minister of India, June 13, 1947)

Regarding “the nature of [the] Arab opposition. Though the Arab of Palestine has benefited...economically, he wants exclusive national sovereignty, such as is enjoyed by the Arabs of Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Lebanon and Syria [sic]. It is a legitimate and natural desire, and justice would seem to call for its satisfaction.” But at the end of the first world war, the Allies gave the Arabs 99% of the “vast, underpopulated territories” liberated from the Turks to satisfy their national aspirations and five independent Arab states were established. One percent was reserved for the Jews “in the land of their origin.” “In the august scale of justice, which weighs need against need, there is no doubt as to whose is more heavy.” What the Jews were allotted in the Balfour Declaration “redresses the balance” of justice and history. Brush aside “the rivalries of power politics and the egotism of petty nationalist appetites” and support “the glorious renascence which has begun in Palestine.” (Letter to Jawaharlal Nehru, Prime Minister of India, June 13, 1947)


To be honest, though, Einstein was a Labour Zionist, and was harsh criticizer of right-wing Zionist political factions, as were many other Labour Zionists back then. One has to remember that for the first century of Zionism, since 1880 to 1977, Zionism and the state of Israel were ruled mainly by Labour Zionism.
Probably most of the quotes of "Einstein against Zionism" that our rivals in this discussion will try to bring forth can be divided to either quotes of Einstein against right-wing, revisionist Zionism (and as I said, it was a minority faction of Zionism until about 30 years ago and had opposition from most Zionists), or in the early debates for the division of the British Mandate of Palestine, which he as many other dovish Zionists initially opposed, but when it did happen in 1947 he continued to support Zionism and the newly formed State of Israel.

Now, let the misdirection and misleading of our "rivals" here start :rolleyes:

Edited by Erikl, 14 May 2013 - 07:19 AM.

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#82    third_eye

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 08:47 AM

the early Zion principles were hijacked ... Einstein himself stated his worries about this inevitability ...

i ) Letter to Mr Hellpach (the irony of the name) published in Mein Weltbild, Amsterdam : Querido Verlag 1934

ii) Letter to an Arab dated MArch 15, 1930 - Mein Weltbild, Amsterdam : Querido Verlag 1934

iii) The Jews of Israel - From Radio Broadcast for the United Jewish Appeal, November 27 1949.
Published in Out of My Later Years. New York: Philosophical Library 1950


~end of file

Quote

' ... life and death carry on as they always have ~ and always will, only the dreamer is gone ~ behind the flow of imagination, beyond any effort to be still
dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions, only the dreamer is gone ~ the dream never ends
'

GIFTS WITH NO GIVER - a love affair with truth ~ Poems by Nirmala

third_eye ' s cavern ~ bring own beer


#83    and then

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 09:02 AM

View Postthird_eye, on 14 May 2013 - 08:47 AM, said:

the early Zion principles were hijacked ... Einstein himself stated his worries about this inevitability ...

i ) Letter to Mr Hellpach (the irony of the name) published in Mein Weltbild, Amsterdam : Querido Verlag 1934

ii) Letter to an Arab dated MArch 15, 1930 - Mein Weltbild, Amsterdam : Querido Verlag 1934

iii) The Jews of Israel - From Radio Broadcast for the United Jewish Appeal, November 27 1949.
Published in Out of My Later Years. New York: Philosophical Library 1950


~end of file
Okay you are king for a day three eyed.....how do you resolve the "problem"?  What do you do with the 6 million Zionists who occupy this historic homeland of Palestine?

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#84    third_eye

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 09:14 AM

View Postand then, on 14 May 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

Okay you are king for a day three eyed.....how do you resolve the "problem"?  What do you do with the 6 million Zionists who occupy this historic homeland of Palestine?

Who are you to be king maker ? Who am I to be made king ? Need we a king to provide a solution ?

Look up the Mr Einstein's Letter to an Arab ... he suggests a 'solution' but will it be sufficient ?

Mr Einstein wasn't optimistic and he explained why .... his concerns applies still to this day //

One thing that won't help is the perpetuation of more hatred ... by all parties ....

Posted Image


my belief is still affirmative positivity would help lead to a solution //

~have a nice day 'and then'


~edit : image copyright Paul Foreman http://www.mindmapinspiration.com

Edited by third_eye, 14 May 2013 - 09:23 AM.

Quote

' ... life and death carry on as they always have ~ and always will, only the dreamer is gone ~ behind the flow of imagination, beyond any effort to be still
dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions, only the dreamer is gone ~ the dream never ends
'

GIFTS WITH NO GIVER - a love affair with truth ~ Poems by Nirmala

third_eye ' s cavern ~ bring own beer


#85    and then

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 09:39 AM

View Postthird_eye, on 14 May 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

Who are you to be king maker ? Who am I to be made king ? Need we a king to provide a solution ?

Look up the Mr Einstein's Letter to an Arab ... he suggests a 'solution' but will it be sufficient ?

Mr Einstein wasn't optimistic and he explained why .... his concerns applies still to this day //

One thing that won't help is the perpetuation of more hatred ... by all parties ....

Posted Image


my belief is still affirmative positivity would help lead to a solution //

~have a nice day 'and then'


~edit : image copyright Paul Foreman http://www.mindmapinspiration.com
We agree on this last.  If the two sides ...TWO sides... could mend fences the conflict would end.  But it will take two working together, not one being asked to make all the concessions.  And I wish you a nice day also sir.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#86    Yamato

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 04:37 PM

View PostErikl, on 13 May 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

Your twisted logic, which seems to try to find things which aren't there, just for the heck of it, is frustrating. Israel is Jewish as Poland is Polish. It's not Jewish as Iran is Islamist. Got it? (probably not).
If Poland instituted "Polish-only" policies in its country while considering land it was occupying to be surrounded by non-poles who are therefore needing to be oppressed, then it would be the same as Poland.  Poland has no sign of the kind of policies that are going on in Israel today so it's a meaningless comparison with regards to the topic.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#87    Erikl

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 05:12 PM

View PostYamato, on 14 May 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

If Poland instituted "Polish-only" policies in its country while considering land it was occupying to be surrounded by non-poles who are therefore needing to be oppressed, then it would be the same as Poland.  Poland has no sign of the kind of policies that are going on in Israel today so it's a meaningless comparison with regards to the topic.

Well Israel is no way Jewish only, evident by the fact that 25% of it's citizens are not Jewish, yet enjoy full human and civil rights. But ofcourse there will be prejudice in favor of the dominant ethnic group - just as there is in Poland or all the other countries. The right of return and immigration laws favoring the majority of the population are, as shown, very common in many other countries. Just as the British flag has not one but three different crosses. Do you think that the Jewish or Muslim or Hindu minorities want that? or the fact that the anthem says "God bless the queen". Or the fact that the weekend is on Sunday, rather than on Saturday or Friday, or that most businesses do not work on Christmas and Easter - these are all hallmarks of a Christian society, even if today most of the Brits are not religious and Britain is a democracy. Same goes for Israel's Jewishness.

So stop trying to portray it as if Israel is something which is not - this is being continuously refuted through out all of this thread.

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#88    Yamato

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 05:17 PM

View PostErikl, on 15 May 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

Well Israel is no way Jewish only, evident by the fact that 25% of it's citizens are not Jewish, yet enjoy full human and civil rights. But ofcourse there will be prejudice in favor of the dominant ethnic group - just as there is in Poland or all the other countries. The right of return and immigration laws favoring the majority of the population are, as shown, very common in many other countries. Just as the British flag has not one but three different crosses. Do you think that the Jewish or Muslim or Hindu minorities want that? or the fact that the anthem says "God bless the queen". Or the fact that the weekend is on Sunday, rather than on Saturday or Friday, or that most businesses do not work on Christmas and Easter - these are all hallmarks of a Christian society, even if today most of the Brits are not religious and Britain is a democracy. Same goes for Israel's Jewishness.

So stop trying to portray it as if Israel is something which is not - this is being continuously refuted through out all of this thread.
Sorry, I can't reconcile non-Jews having full rights in a Jewish state.  Especially after reviewing the evidence.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#89    Erikl

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 05:28 PM

View PostYamato, on 15 May 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

Sorry, I can't reconcile non-Jews having full rights in a Jewish state.  Especially after reviewing the evidence.

Which evidence? all of what you or Jenkings wrote here was refuted.

You simply do not accept facts.

I encourage you to visit Israel yourself on your way to one of those protests in the disputed territories.

But who am I kidding. When it comes to hate Israel, you are a religious zealot.

Edited by Erikl, 15 May 2013 - 05:30 PM.

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#90    Yamato

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 05:30 PM

View PostErikl, on 15 May 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

Which is evidence? all of what you or Jenkings wrote here was refuted.

You simply do not accept facts.

I encourage you to visit Israel yourself on your way to one of those protests in the disputed territories.

But who am I kidding. When it comes to hate Israel, you are a religious zealot.
I like Israel no more or less than any other country generally, I just wish Zionist policy would pack its bags and exit stage left.   You hurl insults at me because of a policy disagreement.   Instead of refuting anything you shoot the messengers.

You're in blind denial of what your government is doing but you're hardly in the majority.    Most Israelis agree with me.   Saying I "hate Israel" is tantamount to cluelessness.

Edited by Yamato, 15 May 2013 - 05:33 PM.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela




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