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Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]


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#3241    Abramelin

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:37 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 29 March 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

I'd ask - how many bothered to make copies of a long, unusual, hard to understand, inappropriate and dangerous to have, manuscript that could jeopardize their lives?
Or who had the inclination or yearning to keep it intact as the Oera Linda family had?

I was talking 6th century BCE. They understood the language.

So they had at least some 6-800 years to make copies if they had wanted to - or even longer in some parts of Europe, because Christianity had not arrived yet.

And why would only the Westfrisians have that yearning?


#3242    The Puzzler

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:39 AM

View PostApol, on 29 March 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

In the OLB a W is what it says it is - a double V. You can see it in for instance Hidde Oera Linda's letter, where the same word is written with two V's and one W respectively:

I have vvrskrêven them on foreign paper. If you inherit them, you must also wrskríva them – likewise your children, so that they never become lost.

You see it all the time: Vvl, Wl (vile),  Vvnnen, Wnnen (won), Vvr, Wr (over), Vvrda, Wrda (places) - and Vvral, Wral (over all, everywhere)
Yes I agree now, I had not noticed the other portions of the original manuscript until seeing the post here today. Rather interesting really.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#3243    The Puzzler

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:46 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 29 March 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

I was talking 6th century BCE. They understood the language.

So they had at least some 6-800 years to make copies if they had wanted to - or even longer in some parts of Europe, because Christianity had not arrived yet.

And why would only the Westfrisians have that yearning?

Well, I tell you, I don't think I would have bothered at the time. Also it appears it's only the Oera Linda family who have added to this particular manuscript - you think all families did that too?

There could have been 5 originals, maybe copied by 3-5 people who were in the appropriate circumstances to copy it, not flooded out or had no home or left the country or been over taken by Magy....
Then of them, maybe got copied another few times, not added to and lost or what-not, unknown to us, known about and burned through fear of even having it, many reasons to get rid of it even.
Just cause it says to do it (copy it) who actually does what they are told? Just saying, half of them might not have even copied it once. Depends on the person and their personality and their interest in it etc.
The Oera Lindas kept theirs in tact, finding it important and relevant to them.

IMO the odds just aren't there of being lots of copies around.

Edited by The Puzzler, 29 March 2013 - 10:47 AM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#3244    Abramelin

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:46 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 29 March 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

Yes I agree now, I had not noticed the other portions of the original manuscript until seeing the post here today. Rather interesting really.

Alternately using W and VV is a sign people were no yet used to using only the W. That was the situation around 1600 CE:

The shift from the ligature 'vv' to the distinct letter 'w' is thus gradual, and is only apparent in abecedaria, explicit listings of all individual letters. It was probably considered a separate letter by the 14th century in both Middle English and Middle German orthography, although it remained an outsider not really considered part of the Latin alphabet proper, as expressed by Valentin Ickelsamer in the 16th century, who complained that

"Poor w is so infamous and unknown that many barely know either its name or its shape, not those who aspire to being Latinists, as they have no need of it, nor do the Germans, not even the schoolmasters, know what to do with it or how to call it; some call it we, [... others] call it uu, [...] the Swabians call it auwawau
."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W.


#3245    The Puzzler

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:52 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 29 March 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

Thek-k-en-e seems to be a logical choice, but then we have to change -N- for -K- .

But both the 'tohnekka' and the 'tunica' were made of wool, so I don't think people would have bathed wearing these things.
I don't think they bathes in them, just comparing the name, a garment that may have been from toe to neck - like a long dress or covering, which I'd be pretty sure she'd be wearing and I'm familiar with little short tunics but in the instance I think the word might not be tunic at all - but covering.

The letter change is somewhat hard yes, for now, but the meaning and similarity as you agree does seem logical, so I'll check it more.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#3246    Abramelin

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:55 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 29 March 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

Well, I tell you, I don't think I would have bothered at the time. Also it appears it's only the Oera Linda family who have added to this particular manuscript - you think all families did that too?

There could have been 5 originals, maybe copied by 3-5 people who were in the appropriate circumstances to copy it, not flooded out or had no home or left the country or been over taken by Magy....
Then of them, maybe got copied another few times, not added to and lost or what-not, unknown to us, known about and burned through fear of even having it, many reasons to get rid of it even.
Just cause it says to do it (copy it) who actually does what they are told? Just saying, half of them might not have even copied it once. Depends on the person and their personality and their interest in it etc.
The Oera Lindas kept theirs in tact, finding it important and relevant to them.

IMO the odds just aren't there of being lots of copies around.

The Frisians were the ones who resisted conversion to Christianity the longest of all European tribes, as far as I know, so more than just the Frisians in Leeuwarden (or Enkhuizen) may have felt the need to preserve their book of their history and laws.

Same thing may have happened during the time the Magi took over, and they must have known of the book.

And there where not only Over de Lindens in Leeuwarden and Enkhuizen, but elsewhere too.


#3247    Apol

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:06 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 29 March 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

So every other forgot to make copies but only Cornelis Over de Linden's direct ancestors did ?

From the paragraph I posted I get the idea that it may not have been uncommon to make copies, so if it is all true, then there should be at least another surviving copy, somewhere.

Don't forget, this happened around mid 6th century BCE, so long before the Christian era there may have been many copies.

Or did the need to make copies only arise because of those Christians, but maybe all other Fryans started too late?

According to the book it was seemingly made one copy only. You can read it from what Apollânja and Wiljo write.
The Oera Linda's were in a leading position, and it was also Adela's idea to do the transcriptions.
That particular family probably felt a special responsibility for taking care of their people's history.
Moreover, they hadn't any copy machines in those days - it was quite a work to make transcriptions, and how and where should they do it? And the scribes had certainly enough to do, and people in general had enough to think about - they didn't think of things so remote from their daily lives as to see to it that their history became preserved.
And Adela's family took care of the recording, so why should they then worry about it?
Another thing: If there existed several copies, the individual families keeping them wouldn't be so concerned about them not getting lost.
It would also have been dangerous to be in the possession of a manuscript like that in those times.
And the writings would have to be copied over and over again as time went on.
I think we should be happy that a history like that has survived at all.

Edited by Apol, 29 March 2013 - 11:08 AM.


#3248    Abramelin

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:06 AM

View PostNO-ID-EA, on 28 March 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

What for block printing , pre-Guttenburg.........Is it not more likely they are parts damaged beyond reading ?.......Surely we have to surmise that although he says he saved it in the flood that some damage was caused ,he could not have saved it undamaged from the flood , otherwise why did he need to copy it at all



Is there a difference though in being faithful to the meaning , but using updated words with the same meaning , ......and just as double U = W ....could we presume M = double n ?.........That double U being W , is why you might recall i thought the W was the U with the line in the middle of it shown in the full stand and run script .

See bolded text: no, I don't think so.

Here is part of the original letter sheet:

(click to enlarge)

Attached File  OLB_NM.jpg   8.13K   3 downloads

And every people from around the Med and the Middle East had a separate letter for -N- and -M-  for thousands of years already.


#3249    Abramelin

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:10 AM

View PostApol, on 29 March 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

According to the book it was seemingly made one copy only. You can read it from what Apollânja and Wiljo write.
The Oera Linda's were in a leading position, and it was also Adela's idea to do the transcriptions.
That particular family probably felt a special responsibility for taking care of their people's history.
Moreover, they hadn't any copy machines in those days - it was quite a work to make transcriptions, and how and where should they do it? And the scribes had certainly enough to do, and people in general had enough to think about - they didn't think of things so remote from their daily lives as to see to it that their history became preserved.
And Adela's family took care of the recording, so why should they then worry about it?
Another thing: If there existed several copies, the individual families keeping them wouldn't be so concerned about them not getting lost.
It would also have been dangerous to be in the possession of a manuscript like that in those times.
And the manuscript would have to be copied over and over again as time went on.
I think we should be happy that a manuscript like that has survived at all.


They may have not been interested in their own history that much, but they sure must have felt the need to copy all those laws and regulations?

So someone living in a burgt like Münster, Buda, Kattenburch and so on would at least copy those laws and regulations, and others after him or her.


#3250    The Puzzler

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:11 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 29 March 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

Alternately using W and VV is a sign people were no yet used to using only the W. That was the situation around 1600 CE:

The shift from the ligature 'vv' to the distinct letter 'w' is thus gradual, and is only apparent in abecedaria, explicit listings of all individual letters. It was probably considered a separate letter by the 14th century in both Middle English and Middle German orthography, although it remained an outsider not really considered part of the Latin alphabet proper, as expressed by Valentin Ickelsamer in the 16th century, who complained that

"Poor w is so infamous and unknown that many barely know either its name or its shape, not those who aspire to being Latinists, as they have no need of it, nor do the Germans, not even the schoolmasters, know what to do with it or how to call it; some call it we, [... others] call it uu, [...] the Swabians call it auwawau
."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W.
Interesting too.

So, is W a separate letter? Maybe not. Maybe it's just showing the double ligature version of it's use, VV as what appears as W in the letter list - which might not actually be a W - as well as regular V as V. The same letter no-id-ea mentioned. The W that is on the manuscript pages could be from sheer laziness to lift your ink pen, unneeding to dip again. Being a lazyish person, I'd do that, not take my pen off while joining 2 V's. It's just a running writing/cursive step without being officially cursive.

Edited by The Puzzler, 29 March 2013 - 11:17 AM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#3251    The Puzzler

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:12 AM

View PostApol, on 29 March 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

According to the book it was seemingly made one copy only. You can read it from what Apollânja and Wiljo write.
The Oera Linda's were in a leading position, and it was also Adela's idea to do the transcriptions.
That particular family probably felt a special responsibility for taking care of their people's history.
Moreover, they hadn't any copy machines in those days - it was quite a work to make transcriptions, and how and where should they do it? And the scribes had certainly enough to do, and people in general had enough to think about - they didn't think of things so remote from their daily lives as to see to it that their history became preserved.
And Adela's family took care of the recording, so why should they then worry about it?
Another thing: If there existed several copies, the individual families keeping them wouldn't be so concerned about them not getting lost.
It would also have been dangerous to be in the possession of a manuscript like that in those times.
And the writings would have to be copied over and over again as time went on.
I think we should be happy that a history like that has survived at all.
Exactly Apol.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#3252    The Puzzler

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:14 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 29 March 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

They may have not been interested in their own history that much, but they sure must have felt the need to copy all those laws and regulations?

So someone living in a burgt like Münster, Buda, Kattenburch and so on would at least copy those laws and regulations, and others after him or her.
I think the times changed and those laws became obsolete, you followed OTHER laws now and forgot you even had your own laws once.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#3253    The Puzzler

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:18 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 29 March 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

The Frisians were the ones who resisted conversion to Christianity the longest of all European tribes, as far as I know, so more than just the Frisians in Leeuwarden (or Enkhuizen) may have felt the need to preserve their book of their history and laws.

Same thing may have happened during the time the Magi took over, and they must have known of the book.

And there where not only Over de Lindens in Leeuwarden and Enkhuizen, but elsewhere too.
Just to acknowledge my error, their was 1 original, not 5.

I hear you but my opinion is that it's possible that no copies exist today.

The Oera Lindas may have been one of the few original Frisian families even still in Frisia.

Recalling this:

The ancient Frisii were forced to resettle within Roman territory as serfs (laeti) about 300, and disappeared as a distinct group. (snip..) Third, after the collapse of the Roman Empire, there was a decline in population as Roman activity stopped and Roman institutions withdrew. As a result of these three factors, the Frisii and Frisiaevones disappeared from the area. The coastal lands remained largely unpopulated for the next two centuries

As climatic conditions improved, there was another mass migration of Germanic peoples into the area from the east. This is known as the "Migration Period" (Volksverhuizingen). The northern Netherlands received an influx of new migrants and settlers, mostly Saxons, but also Angles and Jutes. Many of these migrants did not stay in the northern Netherlands but moved on to England and are known today as the Anglo-Saxons. The newcomers that stayed in the northern Netherlands would eventually be referred to as "Frisians", although they were not descended from the ancient Frisii.

These new Frisians settled in the northern Netherlands and would become the ancestors of the modern Frisians.[37][38] (Because the early Frisians and Anglo-Saxons were formed from largely identical tribal confederacies, their respective languages were very similar. Old Frisian is the most closely related language to Old English[39] and the modern Frisian dialects are in turn the closest related languages to contemporary English.) By the end of the 6th century, the Frisian territory in the northern Netherlands had expanded west to the North Sea coast and, by the 7th century, south to Dorestad. During this period most of the northern Netherlands was known as Frisia. This extended Frisian territory is sometimes referred to as Frisia Magna (or Greater Frisia).

http://en.wikipedia....the_Netherlands

Edited by The Puzzler, 29 March 2013 - 11:31 AM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#3254    Abramelin

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:31 AM

Even if the Frisii were resettled, then they still could have taken their books with laws and chronicles with them?

It's not like taking a boulder along with you?

Just compare it with the Jewish diaspora: they took their books along too.


#3255    Abramelin

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:33 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 29 March 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

I think the times changed and those laws became obsolete, you followed OTHER laws now and forgot you even had your own laws once.

Those laws finally became obsolete in West Friesland too, but still they copied them.

I can't imagine the West Frisian Over de Lindens were that unique.





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