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Could Atlantis be under Greenland's Ice?


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#346    DieChecker

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 08:30 PM

View PostMario Dantas, on 14 November 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

DieChecker,

Sorry, but what do you mean by "Human end of the timeline"?
I mean do you subscribe/follow the accepted "humans out of Africa" timelines? Because your post read to me like you did follow that timeline, with humans coming out of Africa and replacing the neanderthals in Europe.

Quote

I am not a "young Earth Creationist"!

Firstly, i should stress that it is just an experiment (for lack of a better word).
As a thought experiment, I totally agree that Greenland fits up against Africa/Europe at the Straights of Gibralter, and that it could be described in a manner that corrisponds with the description of Atlantis. Yet... I also must say that Greenland could not be Atlantis because there are many more marks in the negatives column, then in the positives column. Many, many more reasons/facts.

Quote

Greenland's ice is not that old, actually it is considerable younger than Antarctica's...
That may be true, but if Greenlands ice is even a million years old, that is way, way too long ago for Atlantis to be there. You can't say a turtle is a Fast Land Creature, even though it is way faster then a snail.

Quote

You all are speaking as if scientific knowledge is not flawed, science needs to be flawed to move on...

Regards,
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I disagree. Science does not need to be flawed or wrong in order to be have data and knowledge Added to it.

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#347    cormac mac airt

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 08:38 PM

View PostMario Dantas, on 14 November 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

DieChecker,

Sorry, but what do you mean by "Human end of the timeline"?

I am not a "young Earth Creationist"!

Firstly, i should stress that it is just an experiment (for lack of a better word).

Greenland's ice is not that old, actually it is considerable younger than Antarctica's...

You all are speaking as if scientific knowledge is not flawed, science needs to be flawed to move on...

Regards,
Mario Dantas

A better phrase would be "thought exercise" as it is not a true experiment.

Greenland's ice is alot older than anatomically modern human's migration out of Africa/Arabia and much more-so our ancestors migration into Eurasia, since the ice dates to c.115,000 - 330,000 BP.

http://www.ouramazin...enland-ice.html

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#348    Mario Dantas

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 08:50 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 14 November 2012 - 03:40 AM, said:

We're not talking about "eventually". We're not even talking about "if". We're talking about what evidence exists now. And the evidence that exists now does not support the contention that the tectonic plates moved drastically at any point within the last 200,000 years (for Homo sapiens) or the last 12,000 years (for Plato's Atlantis). Trying to get around it with a hypothetical impact that only moves the crust (as a whole) over the mantle without so much as leaving evidence of having done so is not an answer. It's wishful thinking.

cormac

I beg you to at least try to understand what is being forwarded. Yes, i agree that it is absurd!

Plato's story is first in my experiment, then everything had to be "re-engineered", geologically speaking. I believe that the time scale is not correct because there is a continental fit, in front of Gibraltar and a massive gravitational anomaly in the north Atlantic, not to mention that the Sahara desert appears at roughly the same time, etc, etc, etc.

I again ask, what would you expect to see? Orogenies, submerged ridges, young sea floors, hot-spots?

Posted Image

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https://picasaweb.google.com/106047243612755133722

2. Was Atlantis in Greenland?
http://a7lan7is.blogspot.com

#349    Quaentum

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 08:50 PM

View PostMario Dantas, on 14 November 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

I disagree, Atlantis is to be readily found when proper geologic evidence is forwarded. Until then it can only be considered a wishful thinking. No one knows how far back did Atlantis exist, if it exited at all. Plato told the story of a large island existing in the north Atlantic, that suddenly disappeared into the depths of the sea with a tremendous earthquake. In my opinion, these are the most important information given to us. I do not have to show anything!

That is maybe the least problem for Atlantis being true or not...

Regards,
Mario Dantas

We don't have to wait for "proper geologic evidence" to poke holes in Plato's story.  The following facts pretty much sink it as a valid historical place/event.
  • The Egyptians have no accounts of Atlantis
  • The Greeks (Save Plato) have no accounts of Atlantis including a war with Atlantis
  • None of the countries supposedly conquered by Atlantis have any accounts detailing it.
  • None of the cultural artifacts of Atlantis can be found though cultural artifacts of those countries supposedly occupied by Atlantis can be
  • Events described by Plato, such as the mud shoals, are not documented by any sea faring nation that existed at the time.
  • etc...

Likewise, your hypothesis about Greenland being Atlantis can be refuted.
  • There is no evidence anywhere in the world to support humans existing millions of years before the accepted time frame.
  • There is no evidence to support Greenland's move from west of Africa/Europe to it's current location in a short time frame.
  • A large object striking the Earth that could affect the movement of the tectonic plates would, when you look at where it would have to be to get Greenland to move in the right direction, have caused the African plate to move East, not North East as it is presently moving with the result that Africa would not be in it's current position but farther East.
  • There is no accounting anywhere in Africa or Europe of such an object striking the Earth in that vicinity which would exist if such an impact had occurred.
  • Greenland does not in any way match any of the tale of Atlantis as told by Plato.
  • Most of the reasons I used for refuting Plato's account as historical can also be used in refuting your hypothesis.

The reason know one knows how far back Atlantis existed is the same reason no one can find Santa's workshop.

You're right, you don't have to show anything though that puts you in the same category as Plato.  Telling an interesting story with no substance.

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#350    Mario Dantas

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 09:07 PM

View PostOniomancer, on 14 November 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

Crustal structure and origin of the Cape Verde Rise

"...geological observations suggest that these rocks have been tilted and uplifted about 4 km from the ocean floor"

"The Cape Verde rise is one of the largest swells in the world's oceans, rising some 2.2 km above the expected depth of the cretaceous seafloor according to depth-age relationships"

https://docs.google...._mzBnvc4FQwYABg

Oniomancer,

Thanks for the article, i had already read it! The Cape Verde islands also bear the strongest positive gravitational anomaly in the world...

This island's (S. Antão) volcano is rising more than 6.000 m above the ocean floor:

Posted Image

Regards,
Mario Dantas

1. Catalog of Images
https://picasaweb.google.com/106047243612755133722

2. Was Atlantis in Greenland?
http://a7lan7is.blogspot.com

#351    cormac mac airt

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 09:09 PM

View PostMario Dantas, on 14 November 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

I beg you to at least try to understand what is being forwarded. Yes, i agree that it is absurd!

Plato's story is first in my experiment, then everything had to be "re-engineered", geologically speaking. I believe that the time scale is not correct because there is a continental fit, in front of Gibraltar and a massive gravitational anomaly in the north Atlantic, not to mention that the Sahara desert appears at roughly the same time, etc, etc, etc.

I again ask, what would you expect to see? Orogenies, submerged ridges, young sea floors, hot-spots?

~SNIP~

Regards,
Mario Dantas

You don't get to "re-engineer" the facts, they speak quite well for themselves and what they show is that your "thought exercise" never happened.

I expect you to use the facts that exist and explain how your exercise could have happened based on same, not make up your own facts.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#352    Mario Dantas

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:11 PM

Cormac,

I will be straight with you! I had done a while ago a somewhat long text, in which i explain why i believe Greenland might have moved "instantaneously" northwards. My theory (or whatever you might want to call it) evolve around a basic idea: that an hypothetical  impacting event occurred, forcing continents to “drift” apart with dire geologic consequences. It is my belief that there is scientific evidence of an ancient impact on earth.

The geoid map’s gravitational anomaly in the north Atlantic ocean floor indicate that something might have happened there (within the strongest positive gravitational anomaly in the world), and moreover, covering almost entirely that segment of the northern MAR, where coincidentally, Plato says Atlantis was located...

It is possible that an intense tectonic event might have happened in the north Atlantic, and the ocean floor somehow is very similar to the shape of the island of Greenland (i hope you cannot deny this):

http://nacc.upc.es/t...eoid-europe.png

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-2H19xdvrP0w/TFcMP4YOgrI/AAAAAAAAEFU/S7WD2qoqlmg/s475/Atlantis.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-GoNm4zCu86E/TGLBo3nje2I/AAAAAAAAEMw/xCdi84DSc8Y/s546/grace-geoid-europe.png
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-C4ieiLoP1ks/TGLBo8Ee5JI/AAAAAAAAEM0/eBv5gs1UWcc/s497/EGM08_Geoid_thumb.gif
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-QLzKFAz4qjs/TFcThw6NozI/AAAAAAAAEFo/JdAksYlxR8E/s795/ATLANTIS+one.jpg

I believe that a large meteoric impact occurred in the Indian ocean with consequences having reached the whole planet, and afterwards, evidences of this event were almost entirely erased by means of water invasion and debris turmoil as well as strong earthquakes that formed a new “unrecognizable” geomorphology. The gravitational anomaly patent in the Indian ocean (actually the largest negative anomaly in the world) is perhaps the only “proof” of a large impact.

Mythology, on the other hand is not a proof of anything, although Plato’s references to a mysterious “Phaeton” and tremendous earthquakes, which ultimately led to the demise of Atlantis, should be seriously considered, absence of evidence is definitely not evidence of absence:

There is a story, which even you have preserved, that once upon a time Paethon, the son of Helios, having yoked the steeds in his father's chariot, because he was not able to drive them in the path of his father, burnt up all that was upon the earth, and was himself destroyed by a thunderbolt. Now this has the form of a myth, but really signifies a declination of the bodies moving in the heavens around the earth
http://classics.mit....to/timaeus.html

The “information” we get from the “Phaeton” (son of Helios) myth (whether by Plato, Ovid, Philostratus, Diodorus Siculus, Apollonius Rhodius, Euripides, Aeschylus, etc) is probably indicating a sizable impact with our planet. The fact that this myth is mentioned not only by Plato, but by various other known personalities of ancient Greece, could be indicating that there might be a shred of truth in the whole story? How could Plato describe a gigantic impact and its consequences just for the sake of storytelling nearly half a century BC?

Ovid, in Metamorphoses possibly made the most vivid description of this strange myth, IMO:

And Phaethon, flames ravaging his auburn hair, falls headlong down, a streaming trail of light, as sometimes through the cloudless vault of night a star, though never falling, seems to fall. Eridanus receives him, far from home, in his wide waters half a world away. And bathes his burning face. The Naides Hesperiae bury his smouldering body in a tomb and on a stone engrave this epitaph : `Here Phaethon lies, his father’s charioteer; great was his fall, yet did he greatly dare.’ His father, sick with grief, had hidden his face, shrouded in misery, an, if the tale is true, one day went by without the Sun. The flaming fires gave light--some gain at least in that disaster. Clymene, distraught with sorrow, said whatever could be said in woes so terrible and beat her breast, and roamed the world to find his lifeless limbs and then his bones, and found his bones at last buried beside a foreign river-bank. And, prostrate there, she drenched in tears his name carved in the marble and hugged it to her breast. His sister’s too, the three Heliades, wept sad tears, their futile tribute to the dead, and long lay prostrate on their brother’s tomb, bruising their breasts and calling day and night Phaethon who never more would hear their moans. Four times the waxing crescent of the moon had filled her orb, in their wonted way, wailing was now their wont, they made lament [and were transformed into amber-crying poplar-trees; and his friend Kyknos was transformed into a swan] . . .
Sol [Helios] meanwhile, dishevelled, his bright sheen subdued as in the gloom of an eclipse, loathing himself, loathing the light, the day, gives way to grief, and, grief rising to rage, denies his duty to the world. `Enough’, he cries, `Since time began my lot has brought no rest, no respite. I resent this toil, unending toil, unhonoured drudgery. Let someone else take out my chariot that bears my sunbeams, or, if no one will, and all the gods confess they can’t, let Jove [Zeus] drive it, and, as he wrestles with the reins, there’ll be a while at least when he won’t wield his bolt to rob a father of his son; and, when he’s tried the fiery-footed team and learnt their strength, he’ll know no one should die for failing to control them expertly.’
Then all the deities surround Sol [Helios] and beg him and beseech him not to shroud the world in darkness. Jupiter [Zeus], indeed, defends his fiery bolt and adds his royal threats. So Sol [Helios] took in hand his maddened team, still terrified, and whipped them savagely, whipped them and cursed them for their guilt that they destroyed his son, their master, that dire day." Ovid, Metamorphoses 1. 750 ff
http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Phaethon.html

http://www.howwedrive.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/rubens_fall_of_phaeton.jpg

Please consider the following passages from the same author:

“And when the reins fall loose upon their backs, the horses swerve away and, unrestrained, gallop through tracts of air unknown and race headlong, out of control, running amok amid the stars fixed in the vault of heaven, hurtling the chariot where no road had run. And now they climb to highest heaven, now plunge sheer in breakneck descent down to the earth. Luna [Selene the Moon] with wonder sees her brother’s team running below her own; the scalding clouds steam; the parched fields crack deep, all moisture dried, and every summit flames; the calcined meads lie white; the leaf dies burning with the bough and the dry corn its own destruction feeds. These are but trifles. Mighty cities burn with all their ramparts; realms and nations turn to ashes; mountains with their forests blaze. Athos is burning, Oete is on fire, and Tmolus and proud Taurus Cilix and the crest of Ide, dry whose springs were once so famed, and virgin Helicon and Haemus, still unknown, unhonoured. Aetne burns immense in twofold conflagration; Eryx flames and Othrys and Parnasos’ double peaks; Cynthus and Dindyma and Mycale and Rhodope, losing at last her snows, and Mimas and Cithaeron’s holy hill. Caucasus burns; the frosts of Scythia fail in her need; Pindus and Ossa blaze and, lordlier than both, Olympus flames and the airy Alpes and cloud-capped Appeninus. Then Phaethon saw the world on every side ablaze--heat more that he could bear. He breathed vapours that burned like furnace-blasts, and felt the chariot glow white-hot beneath his feet. Cinders and sparks past bearing shoot and swirl and scorching smoke surrounds him; in the murk, the midnight murk, he knows not where he is or goes; the horses whirl him where they will. The Aethiopes then turned black, so men believe, as heat summoned their blood too near the skin”

Then was Libya’s dusty desert [the Sahara] formed, all water scorched away.

or

“Then the sad Nymphae bewailed their pools and springs; Boeotia mourned her Dirce lost, Argos Amymone, Ephyre Pirene; nor were Flumina (Rivers) safe though fortune’s favour made them broad and deep and their banks far apart; in middle stream from old Peneus rose the drifting steam, from Erymanthus Phegaicus too and swift Ismenos, and Caicus Teuthranius and the Tanais; Maeander playing on his winding way; tawny Lycormas, Xanthus doomed to burn at Troy a second time; Melas Mygdonius, that sable stream; the pride of Eurotas Taenarius. Eurphrates Babylonius burned, Phasis, Hister [Danube] and Ganges were on fire, Orontes burned and racing Thermodon; Alpheus boiled, fire scorched Spercheus’ banks. The gold that Tagus carried in his sands ran molten in the flames, and all the swans that used to charm the Maeonian banks with song huddled in mid Cayster sweltering. The Nilus in terror to the world’s end fled and his head, still hidden; this seven mouths gaped dusty, seven vales without a stream. The same disaster dried the Ismarian rivers, Hebrus and Strymon, dried the lordly flow of the Hesperian waters, Rhodanus [Rhode] and Rhenus [Rhine] and Padus [Po], and Thybris [Tiber], promised empire of the world. Earth everywhere splits deep and light strikes down into Tartara (the Underworld) and fills with fear Rex Infernus (Hell’s monarch) [Haides] and his consort [Persephone]; the wide seas shrink and where ocean lay a wilderness of dry sand spread; new peaks and ranges rise, long covered by the deep, and multiply the scattered islands of the Cyclades. The fishes dive, the dolphins dare no leap their curving course through the familiar air, and lifeless seals float supine on the waves; even Nereus, fathoms down, in his dark caves, with Doris and her daughters, felt the fire. Thrice from the waters Neptunus [Poseidon] raised his arm and frowning face; thrice fled the fiery air.”
http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Phaethon.html

I ask what would you make of this? Is it not true that the gravitational anomaly lies exactly where Ovid, and others attest that in fact an earth impacting event occurred?

Eridanus receives him, far from home, in his wide waters half a world away. And bathes his burning face.
The Naides Hesperiae bury his smouldering body in a tomb and on a stone engrave this epitaph : `Here Phaethon lies, his father’s charioteer; great was his fall, yet did he greatly dare.’ His father, sick with grief, had hidden his face, shrouded in misery, an, if the tale is true, one day went by without the Sun.

I wonder also why Plato tells us that Zeus is to call the other gods together:

“Zeus, the god of gods, who rules according to law, and is able to see into such things, perceiving that an honourable race was in a woeful plight, and wanting to inflict punishment on them, that they might be chastened and improve, collected all the gods into their most holy habitation, which, being placed in the centre of the world, beholds all created things. And when he had called them together, he spake as follows-* The rest of the Dialogue of Critias has been lost.
http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/critias.html

Zeus, according to Ovid, also gathers the gods but additionally, strikes Phaeton with a thunderbolt:

“But Pater Omnipotens (the Almighty Father) [Zeus], calling the gods and him who gave the chariot to attest creation doomed were now his aid not given, mounted the highest citadel of heaven, whence he was wont to veil the lands with clouds and roll his thunders and his lightnings hurl. But then no clouds had he the lands to veil, nor rain to send from heaven to soothe their pain. He thundered; and poising high his bolt to blast, struck Phaethon from the chariot and from life, and fire extinguished fire and flame quenched flame. The horses in wild panic leapt apart, burst from the traces and flung off the yoke, there lies the reins, the sundered axle there, here the spokes dangle from a shattered wheel, and far and wide the signs of wreckage fly. And Phaethon, flames ravaging his auburn hair, falls headlong down, a streaming trail of light, as sometimes through the cloudless vault of night a star, though never falling, seems to fall. Eridanus receives him, far from home, in his wide waters half a world away. And bathes his burning face.”

I am awfully sorry for the length of this post. My goal should be to show others an idea and discuss it, genuinely...

Very likely, something took place there (in the Indian ocean). NinetyEastRidge and the “rapid” move of the Indian subcontinent have a same direction...

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image



Regards,
Mario Dantas

1. Catalog of Images
https://picasaweb.google.com/106047243612755133722

2. Was Atlantis in Greenland?
http://a7lan7is.blogspot.com

#353    cormac mac airt

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:52 PM

Quote

I had done a while ago a somewhat long text, in which i explain why i believe Greenland might have moved "instantaneously" northwards.

"Instantaneously" is a matter of interpretation, as geologically it means something much different from what it means in regards to anatomically modern humans (us).

Quote

It is my belief that there is scientific evidence of an ancient impact on earth.

There've been many impacts in the past. I'm waiting for you to show evidence of one that's relevant to the timeframe and location of Plato's Atlantis c.9600 BC.

"This looks similar to that" doesn't mean much unless you can show they're actually connected, both geologically and temporally. So far you haven't.

Quote

...absence of evidence is definitely not evidence of absence...

But it is the only evidence that exists and therefore the only evidence that matters.

Timaeus doesn't say impacts, it says the story is about "a declination of the bodies moving in the heavens around the earth". You're trying to make more of it than what it says.

Comparative mythology is not a science. It's what one does when they're bored and have no facts.

Whatever initiated India's move northward millions of years ago has no relevance to the timeframe of Homo sapiens or Atlantis.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#354    Quaentum

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 05:20 PM

View PostMario Dantas, on 15 November 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

absence of evidence is definitely not evidence of absence:

Absence of evidence neither validates nor supports any hypothesis or belief.  Further, willful ignorance of facts, combined with absence of evidence, insures the failure of any hypothesis.

AA LOGIC
They didn't use thousands of workers - oops forgot about the work camps
There's no evidence for ramps - You found one?...Bummer
Well we know they didn't use ancient tools to cut and shape the stones - Chisel marks?  Craps
I still say aliens built them!

#355    Harte

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 06:24 PM

View PostMario Dantas, on 15 November 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

... absence of evidence is definitely not evidence of absence...
Of course it is.  Are you claiming that the concept of "evidence of absence" cannot possibly have any validity?  If not, then what, exactly, would constitute evidence of absence?
If so, then please lay out your logical process for arriving at such a loony idea as there not possibly existing any evidence of absence of anything.  After all, if absence is impossible to prove, we are really in a tight spot.

As a teacher, I take roll every day.  What justification do I have for marking a student absent, if not the absence of evidence for his presence?

Absence of evidence is the only possible evidence for the absence of a thing.  Your quote of Sagan (yes, that's who you were quoting) ignores the very real fact that he was being sarcastic when he said that.

Playing word games is evidence of a weak argument.  However, in your case, since you have no actual argument here (only a "let's pretend" scenario,) I suppose that's okay.

Harte

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#356    Mario Dantas

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 04:50 PM

DieChecker,

You must make an effort and leave humans time frame out of this equation. When you say "humans coming out of Africa and replacing the neanderthals in Europe", seems like they (Neanderthals) weren't humans...

"As a thought experiment, I totally agree that Greenland fits up against Africa/Europe at the Straights of Gibralter, and that it could be described in a manner that corrisponds with the description of Atlantis. Yet... I also must say that Greenland could not be Atlantis because there are many more marks in the negatives column, then in the positives column. Many, many more reasons/facts."

Well, i intend to demonstrate that there is a great coincidence of facts and when you put them under a different "light"and "perspective", you can predict geologic events that happened in different chronological periods in the north Atlantic region. My theory can explain why is there sand in the Sahara, or an Atlas range, in front of Gibraltar.

But i disagree with what you said:

"Science does not need to be flawed or wrong in order to be have data and knowledge Added to it"

of course it does have to have flaws, since nobody is perfect, right?...

Regards,
Mario Dantas

1. Catalog of Images
https://picasaweb.google.com/106047243612755133722

2. Was Atlantis in Greenland?
http://a7lan7is.blogspot.com

#357    Mario Dantas

Mario Dantas

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 09:29 PM

View PostQuaentum, on 14 November 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

We don't have to wait for "proper geologic evidence" to poke holes in Plato's story.  The following facts pretty much sink it as a valid historical place/event.
  • The Egyptians have no accounts of Atlantis
  • The Greeks (Save Plato) have no accounts of Atlantis including a war with Atlantis
  • None of the countries supposedly conquered by Atlantis have any accounts detailing it.
  • None of the cultural artifacts of Atlantis can be found though cultural artifacts of those countries supposedly occupied by Atlantis can be
  • Events described by Plato, such as the mud shoals, are not documented by any sea faring nation that existed at the time.
  • etc...
Likewise, your hypothesis about Greenland being Atlantis can be refuted.
  • There is no evidence anywhere in the world to support humans existing millions of years before the accepted time frame.
  • There is no evidence to support Greenland's move from west of Africa/Europe to it's current location in a short time frame.
  • A large object striking the Earth that could affect the movement of the tectonic plates would, when you look at where it would have to be to get Greenland to move in the right direction, have caused the African plate to move East, not North East as it is presently moving with the result that Africa would not be in it's current position but farther East.
  • There is no accounting anywhere in Africa or Europe of such an object striking the Earth in that vicinity which would exist if such an impact had occurred.
  • Greenland does not in any way match any of the tale of Atlantis as told by Plato.
  • Most of the reasons I used for refuting Plato's account as historical can also be used in refuting your hypothesis.

The reason know one knows how far back Atlantis existed is the same reason no one can find Santa's workshop.

You're right, you don't have to show anything though that puts you in the same category as Plato.  Telling an interesting story with no substance.


Quaentum,

Plato's Critias says the following:

and there they implanted brave children of the soil, and put into their minds the order of government; their names are preserved, but their actions I have already said, they were men who dwelt in the mountains; and they were ignorant of the art of writing, and had heard only the names of the laws of their predecessors, they knew only by obscure traditions; and as they themselves and their children lacked for many generations the necessaries long past; for mythology and the enquiry into antiquity are first introduced into cities when they begin to have leisure, and when they see that the their actions. This I infer because Solon said that the priests in their narrative of that war mentioned most of the names which are recorded prior military pursuits were then common to men and women, the men of those days in accordance with the custom of the time set up a figure and image of the virtue which belongs to them without distinction of sex. <a name="142">

http://classics.mit....to/critias.html

Even though nothing seems to demonstrate the veracity of Plato's Atlantis, it is something in which i personally believe. The intelligent "poking holes" in Plato's tale made by you, simply attest, probably, the dimension of the phenomena.

Regarding Greenland not being Atlantis, the impact did not occur neither in Europe or Africa, but where the largest negative anomaly in the world is located, in all geoid maps without exception, that is near the Indian subcontinent:

Posted Image

http://www.uni-stutt..._geod/geoid.GIF

When you say:

"A large object striking the Earth that could affect the movement of the tectonic plates would, when you look at where it would have to be to get Greenland to move in the right direction, have caused the African plate to move East, not North East as it is presently moving with the result that Africa would not be in it's current position but farther East."


Posted Image


I think it is not that easy... there could have been many possible trajectories and as many possible ancient earth rotation patterns, at the supposed time of impact, to jump to conclusions that easily. Meaning that we could not know that quickly how it could have actually happened.

Regards,
Mario Dantas

1. Catalog of Images
https://picasaweb.google.com/106047243612755133722

2. Was Atlantis in Greenland?
http://a7lan7is.blogspot.com

#358    Mario Dantas

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 10:33 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 14 November 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

You don't get to "re-engineer" the facts, they speak quite well for themselves and what they show is that your "thought exercise" never happened.

I expect you to use the facts that exist and explain how your exercise could have happened based on same, not make up your own facts.

cormac

Cormac,

I am not making up facts, as you put it. Nevertheless, I will try to show every bit of information related to this specific subject. I know that it could not be enough, but it is what i have got...

Actually, where to begin? According to Plato, Atlantis was an island that was situated where Greenland existed, millions of years ago, exactly. This could be considered a coincidence, but the fact is that, in the ambit of this experiment, there are much more available geologic data "corroborating" the existence of an island in front of Gibraltar:

Posted Image

What did provoke the end of the last ice age? Is it not the Quaternary a very short period? The Pleistocene/Holocene frontier is really not even visible in some geologic timescale:

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

"The Holocene, or "Recent" (the latest epoch) is too short to be shown clearly on this timeline to the right of the Pleistocene (P) epoch. Q stands for the Quaternary period."

http://en.wikipedia....ogic_time_scale


Information regarding the Pleistocene and Holocene (curiously 11.500 ya...)

Posted Image

I find it funny how one can ignore what actually took place on earth, 10.000 years ago and "pretend" to actually know events that took place billions/millions years ago...

Regards,
Mario Dantas

1. Catalog of Images
https://picasaweb.google.com/106047243612755133722

2. Was Atlantis in Greenland?
http://a7lan7is.blogspot.com

#359    cormac mac airt

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:16 PM

View PostMario Dantas, on 18 November 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

Cormac,

I am not making up facts, as you put it. Nevertheless, I will try to show every bit of information related to this specific subject. I know that it could not be enough, but it is what i have got...

Actually, where to begin? According to Plato, Atlantis was an island that was situated where Greenland existed, millions of years ago, exactly. This could be considered a coincidence, but the fact is that, in the ambit of this experiment, there are much more available geologic data "corroborating" the existence of an island in front of Gibraltar:

Posted Image

What did provoke the end of the last ice age? Is it not the Quaternary a very short period? The Pleistocene/Holocene frontier is really not even visible in some geologic timescale:

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

"The Holocene, or "Recent" (the latest epoch) is too short to be shown clearly on this timeline to the right of the Pleistocene (P) epoch. Q stands for the Quaternary period."

http://en.wikipedia....ogic_time_scale


Information regarding the Pleistocene and Holocene (curiously 11.500 ya...)

Posted Image

I find it funny how one can ignore what actually took place on earth, 10.000 years ago and "pretend" to actually know events that took place billions/millions years ago...

Regards,
Mario Dantas

That's your first fabrication, as Plato says that Atlantis is located outside the Pillars of Hercules, IN FRONT OF said pillars in c.9600 BC. He never makes any claim connection Atlantis with Greenland. Also, Athanasius Kircher's map isn't evidence that Atlantis existed.

Quote

This could be considered a coincidence, but the fact is that, in the ambit of this experiment, there are much more available geologic data "corroborating" the existence of an island in front of Gibraltar:

Really there's not, as core samples drilled throughout the North Atlantic don't support the claim of a place, such as Plato's Atlantis, having existed at any point in the ancient past.

Quote

I find it funny how one can ignore what actually took place on earth, 10.000 years ago and "pretend" to actually know events that took place billions/millions years ago...

I do too, so why don't you stop doing it.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#360    Mario Dantas

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 12:21 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 15 November 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

"Instantaneously" is a matter of interpretation, as geologically it means something much different from what it means in regards to anatomically modern humans (us).



There've been many impacts in the past. I'm waiting for you to show evidence of one that's relevant to the timeframe and location of Plato's Atlantis c.9600 BC.

"This looks similar to that" doesn't mean much unless you can show they're actually connected, both geologically and temporally. So far you haven't.

Timaeus doesn't say impacts, it says the story is about "a declination of the bodies moving in the heavens around the earth". You're trying to make more of it than what it says.

Comparative mythology is not a science. It's what one does when they're bored and have no facts.

Whatever initiated India's move northward millions of years ago has no relevance to the timeframe of Homo sapiens or Atlantis.

cormac

I mentioned "instantaneously", as that is what was referred to by Plato (e.g.in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth...). This hypothetic event is not to be tested, in my experiment, under the "canonic" chronological timescale. Geochronology cannot be taken into account!

Regarding Timaeus not having said this or that (btw you are correct), what i can tell you is that they (Timaeus and Critias) were together when Socrates first demands whether someone knew of a similar story as the one proposed in the Republic dialog. Timaeus dialog only makes mention to Atlantis in one single paragraph. It is one single story told by the two dialogs and every bit of information is supposed to be one and the same.

Regarding the Indian geological movement (millions of years) being or not in any way related to the human timeframe, or Atlantis (as you put it), is, again, not to be taken into consideration, in this experiment.

Regards,
Mario Dantas

1. Catalog of Images
https://picasaweb.google.com/106047243612755133722

2. Was Atlantis in Greenland?
http://a7lan7is.blogspot.com




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