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Nazi Atomic bomb used in 1943


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#46    tazjet

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 12:37 PM

 DieChecker, on 01 November 2010 - 09:19 PM, said:

I went to the National Archive Online and tried to search for this document. I could not find it. Perhaps you would be so kind as to introduce some proof that it is real?

I have seen it all over the internet, thanks to google searches, but none of those quotes has a link to the original source, or a picture of the document. Given... a picture of the document does not really mean anything either.

Unless we can all read the document, then what you are posting is just hearsay.


Sounds like an interesting book.

Here is what Wikipedia has to say:

http://en.wikipedia...._weapon_program

Also here is a link to AboveTopSecret.com where this subject was discussed and dismissed a couple weeks ago. Apparently the warhead design is ridiculously inadiquite for what a nuclear device would need for critical mass.
http://www.abovetops...hread620332/pg1





Wikipedia is constantly revised, edited and re-edited by combattive contributors, so the content is often contested and shifting like quicksand.

My apologies for sloppy citation. The signal to my knowledge was first cited in German and has been referred to since in English by various commentators like Joseph Farrell.

The original reference to it was in German by Edgar Mayer and Thomas Mehner, Hitler und die, Bombe" (Rottenburg: Kopp Verlag, 2002),  
http://vho.org/VffG/2005/1/Holzner99-102.html

In English I think this link to a PDF of “Reich of the Black Sun,” cites the document. You can search the PDF for words or phrases:
http://www.whale.to/b/farrell.pdf

I believe from an author friend in the United States that only US citizens can access NARA archives online. In any case it is on a microfilm SRA roll which would defeat any effort to find it online. SRA relates to records of communications by Japanese Diplomatic Attache during WW2.

The full citation is Japanese Diplomatic signal intercept 12 December 1944 (Magic decrypt) Trans 14 Dec 44 (3020- B, "Stockholm to Tokyo, No. 232.9 December 1944 (War Department), National Archives, RG 457, SRA 14628-32, declassified October 1, 1978

IIRC the signal refers to destruction of the 19th Division 150 miles south of Kursk in June 1943, before the famous tank battle. There was the reduction of the Izmur Pocket about this time frame, just north of Karkov. I think the 19th Division were also referred to as the Vorezneh Rifles, but I am no expert in Soviet units.  

I have faith that the document cited exists.

http://www.whale.to/b/farrell.pdf

Edited by tazjet, 29 April 2012 - 12:41 PM.


#47    tazjet

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 12:58 PM

 badeskov, on 13 April 2012 - 04:51 AM, said:

Indeed that may be true, but certainly not with nuclear devices. If they actually had nuclear devices (which we know that they had not), they would have been much more useful in the theater of war. i.e., the Eastern front or at British Airfields.

Cheers,
Badeskov

Well no you don't know... you are only stating an opinion.

All we know is Germany lost the War. Threats were made to Hitler in July 1944 via Lisbon by the Americans to use nuclear weapons on Dresden unless he abandoned Germany's nuclear weapons. Churchill also warned he would use the RAF to drop anthrax infected cattle cakes all over the German countryside.

The British in seeking to prosecute General Dornberger at Nuremberg cited a CSDIC summary of evidence taken from his own comments evesdropped by hidden microphones, relating to secret surrender talks at Lisbon in 1944. These talks are nowhere else disclosed in historical records yet the British were prepared to cite them in evidence at Nuremberg.

Regards the question why not use the weapons tactically against airfields or Soviet ground forces?

If the Americans laboured from 1942 to 1945 and only produced three nuclear weapons in that time including: Trinity (Mark I bomb) Little Boy (Mark II) and Fat Man (Mark III) then please explain to me why they specifically used them on undamaged Japanese cities rather than tactically in the battle for Okinawa?

The answer is they were too precious and too rare to be wasted tactically and a devastating attack on New York would have greater impact. A Soviet tank division could be replaced. A couple of squadrons on an airfield could also have been replaced. Other airfields could be pressed into service within days or hours with new units. Such tactical use would have been meaningless compared to a knock out blow against New York which Hitler was apparently fixated upon.

Edited by tazjet, 29 April 2012 - 12:59 PM.


#48    PersonFromPorlock

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 06:17 PM

 tazjet, on 29 April 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

Well no you don't know... you are only stating an opinion.

The German surrender was unconditional, which means (among other things) that they lost all control of their own records. It beggars the imagination that we would not have come across documents describing the development and use of an atomic weapon, even if it was only a 'dirty bomb'. What we do have is a clear paper trail that shows their atomic effort was - like many of their research efforts - fragmented, desultory and unsuccessful.

Incidentally, while I won't guarantee the accuracy of my memory, I'm pretty sure we had one more atomic bomb in reserve at the end or WW2.


#49    sickpuppy

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 08:20 PM

i've heard of occums razor, but i wonder if there is a judge-judy bull**** detecter?


Quote

It beggars the imagination that we would not have come across documents describing the development and use of an atomic weapon, even if it was only a 'dirty bomb'.
right.. so this is a bit like drawing a comparison to operation paperclip.. it would beggar the imaginations of US citizens to learn the enemy nazi scientists were drafted over to their science programs

(as opposed to)

Quote

What we do have is a clear paper trail that shows their atomic effort was - like many of their research efforts - fragmented, desultory and unsuccessful.
right... so this has all the credibility of a FOX news report..


..i couldn't say/prove one way or another if they had the technology back then (personally, i think they did) ..but like judge judy, i know a pile of bull**** when i hear it, and that makes me curious about what the REAL story is..

My contribution is deciding how giant mutant space goats travel in space.
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#50    PersonFromPorlock

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 01:36 AM

 unit, on 29 April 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

right.. so this is a bit like drawing a comparison to operation paperclip.. it would beggar the imaginations of US citizens to learn the enemy nazi scientists were drafted over to their science programs

I hate to tell you, but the joke back in the '50s (I was there) was that the Russians beat us into space because "their Germans are better than ours."


#51    Time Spy

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 02:37 AM

 tazjet, on 03 October 2010 - 10:04 AM, said:

The following intercepted Japanese diplomatic signal was intercepted during World War 2: "Stockholm to Tokyo" No. 232.9 December 1944 (War Department), National Archives, RG 457,  declassified October 1, 1978.  



*my italics

This is not a fantasy or an illusion. The signal interception known as a MAGIC decrypt was kept classified after the war. The Japanese throughout WW2 had no knowledge that their encyphered diplomatic signals from Berlin and Stockholm were being read in London and Washington.

I am unsure where you have received such knowledge, but you are quie right.  A nuclear bomb not detinated properly is nothing more than a massive C-4 bomb with a major explosion.  However, that's all it was at Kursk, not to mention elsewhere.  The Germans were quite compulsive and jumped the gun, not knowing the proper procedures in creating the after shock of a total after implosive reprocusion.  They later sent Japan the heavy water in hope of a better result with a superior technology. Like it or not God works in mysterious ways. and decided enough was enough. Hate is unexceptable and can only be rewarded with a contemptable judgmental verdict. The whirlwind was sown, and thus was it reaped, although terrible as it was in innocent destruction.  The end must become a means, when will we ever learn from our mistakes?

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#52    tazjet

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 01:13 AM

 Hanslune, on 04 October 2010 - 03:09 PM, said:

Except that his scientists didn't know how to build one. Nor did they have a planet to make one. The closest thing they had to a plant that might have been able to do that was destroyed in March 1945.

Look closely at what the Americans and Soviets had to commit as resources to get it done then look at what Germany did - not even close.

Take a look at the weight of the first warheads made - how would the German's have lifted them? That is if they had made one.

Strangely skilled percision workers don't recall having made the materials or the mechanism to do all of this

Its all space gas.......


You assume wrongly that the only path to developing nuclear weapons is attaining critical mass. USA took that path because it was the least complicated method.

The Nazis however worked on a different principle these days referred to as Inertial confinement fusion (ICF) or Third Generation Nuclear weapons. The Nazi scientist who led the German WW2 Atomic bomb project Dr Kurt Diebner taught USA how to dispense with critical mass by adopting Nazi techniques when he was inducted into Operation Paperclip.

USA stopped using Mark III critical mass nuclear weapons in 1948 when Operation sandstone tested levitated Pu cores at Eniwetok in 1948.


#53    tazjet

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 01:40 AM

 DieChecker, on 01 November 2010 - 09:19 PM, said:

I went to the National Archive Online and tried to search for this document. I could not find it. Perhaps you would be so kind as to introduce some proof that it is real?

I have seen it all over the internet, thanks to google searches, but none of those quotes has a link to the original source, or a picture of the document. Given... a picture of the document does not really mean anything either.

Unless we can all read the document, then what you are posting is just hearsay.




It is not hearsay at all. If you are sufficiently interested to acquire it then follow this citation:
Declassified authority NND 947022
RG 0457 National Security Agency / Central Security Service, entry # A1 9004, Japanese Army Attache message translations
SRA 14,200 through 15,000 ("Translation Reports of Intercepted Japanese Army Attache signals Aug 25,1941 - Aug 1945")

With thanks to my friend William J Pellas who posted these pictures elsewhere here is the actual document:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image


Quote

Sounds like an interesting book.

Here is what Wikipedia has to say:

http://en.wikipedia...._weapon_program

Also here is a link to AboveTopSecret.com where this subject was discussed and dismissed a couple weeks ago. Apparently the warhead design is ridiculously inadiquite for what a nuclear device would need for critical mass.
http://www.abovetops...hread620332/pg1

Critical mass has not been a requirement in the US inventory since 1948. For example the nuclear warhead detonated by North Korea in February 2013 was 7 kilotons and used just 0.4 kilograms of Uranium -not 64kg (ie critical mass)

Wikipedia is a plethora of hearsay comments by multiple authors many of whom know less than they think they do.

Nazi scientists figured out how to compress deuterium sufficiently to ignite a fusion burn which then saturated a compressed fissile target with sufficient neutrons to replicate criticality in a "natural fissile Critical Mass"


#54    tazjet

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 01:46 AM

 spud the mackem, on 13 April 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

Disagree on your aircraft post,or are you saying the German Pilots were not as good ? The Spitfire was acknowledged by the German Pilots ,to be far superior to what they had....I didnt forget the other foreign nationals I just didnt have time to add them in at the time I posted . Ok  you can shut up now, Cheers....

By late in the war the Germans had lost their best pilots and had not trained sufficient new pilots nor due to fuel shortages trained pilots adequately, the reversal of the situation in 1939 and yes they did have superior aircraft in most respects except that they lacked the high temperature alloys necessary for high performance piston engines and increasingly had to make technology deal with lower and lower grades of fuel. The Me-262 however could use crude oil, diesel or coal tar.


#55    Quaentum

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 04:07 PM

 tazjet, on 12 March 2013 - 01:40 AM, said:


It is not hearsay at all. If you are sufficiently interested to acquire it then follow this citation:
Declassified authority NND 947022
RG 0457 National Security Agency / Central Security Service, entry # A1 9004, Japanese Army Attache message translations
SRA 14,200 through 15,000 ("Translation Reports of Intercepted Japanese Army Attache signals Aug 25,1941 - Aug 1945")

With thanks to my friend William J Pellas who posted these pictures elsewhere here is the actual document:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image




Critical mass has not been a requirement in the US inventory since 1948. For example the nuclear warhead detonated by North Korea in February 2013 was 7 kilotons and used just 0.4 kilograms of Uranium -not 64kg (ie critical mass)

Wikipedia is a plethora of hearsay comments by multiple authors many of whom know less than they think they do.

Nazi scientists figured out how to compress deuterium sufficiently to ignite a fusion burn which then saturated a compressed fissile target with sufficient neutrons to replicate criticality in a "natural fissile Critical Mass"

There are some problems with the document:

It says:  To Tokyo (Summer(Vice Chief, General Staff))

It seems that at that time there was no vice chief of the general staff

http://en.wikipedia....al_Staff_Office

At the time the bombing was done south east of Kursk, the area was behind German lines so they would have been bombing their own troops and not the Russians.

http://www.naval-his...ussianFront.htm

The reference in December 1944 to the heavy water plant in Norway  "Which has from time to time been bombed by English"  was a plant that had been put out of operation in early 1943

Quote

These operations—codenamed "Grouse," "Freshman," and "Gunnerside"—finally managed to knock the plant out of production in early 1943.


http://en.wikipedia...._water_sabotage

Further:  You have been here http://www.militaryp...bout-Nazi-nukes  since 2010 posting about the same thing and some of the interesting parts about that site is they found that the rifle division was not in that area at the time the attack supposedly took place.

From just these few things I can say the document is most likely a fake

AA LOGIC
They didn't use thousands of workers - oops forgot about the work camps
There's no evidence for ramps - You found one?...Bummer
Well we know they didn't use ancient tools to cut and shape the stones - Chisel marks?  Craps
I still say aliens built them!

#56    jaylemurph

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 05:55 PM

 Quaentum, on 12 March 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

From just these few things I can say the document is most likely a fake

....ahh, but do fakes count as hearsay?

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Deeply venial

#57    keithisco

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 06:32 PM

 altitudewarrior, on 13 April 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

.

Posted Image

.

The very last sentence in the Telegraph scanned report, tells us that "reliable agents in Germany reported that the bomb had been tested and proved a failure" ... is this a QED moment??

Edited by keithisco, 12 March 2013 - 06:36 PM.


#58    third_eye

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 08:17 PM

Adolf would have just gave Eva a nice fireworks show if he had the nukes

Posted Image

http://www.evabraun.dk/


~edit : linkage

Edited by third_eye, 12 March 2013 - 08:18 PM.

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#59    DieChecker

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 09:50 PM

 tazjet, on 12 March 2013 - 01:40 AM, said:

It is not hearsay at all. If you are sufficiently interested to acquire it then follow this citation:
Declassified authority NND 947022
RG 0457 National Security Agency / Central Security Service, entry # A1 9004, Japanese Army Attache message translations
SRA 14,200 through 15,000 ("Translation Reports of Intercepted Japanese Army Attache signals Aug 25,1941 - Aug 1945")

With thanks to my friend William J Pellas who posted these pictures elsewhere here is the actual document:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

But, it WAS hearsay till evidence was presented. Thanks for doing so... If I said that my wife shot me, till I produced evidence she did, my testimony would be hearsay.

I'm going to chose for discussion purposes to believe these documents, but they still don't prove a nuclear attack in Russia in 1943. They say a "new kind of weapon" and then the report goes on to say that they are still working on the "atom splitting bomb".

Even if the attack occured, it might have been some other new weapon, like a fuel air bomb.

When did the US develop the technology to the point we could build a "5 kilogram" atomic bomb?? Even the Davy Crockett (1956) recoilless rifle delivered nuke had a warhead that was 23kg.

Quote

Critical mass has not been a requirement in the US inventory since 1948. For example the nuclear warhead detonated by North Korea in February 2013 was 7 kilotons and used just 0.4 kilograms of Uranium -not 64kg (ie critical mass)
Critical mass is subject to density and shape. So, basically the 64 kg is for a sphere just sitting there. But if explosives are used (Spherical or linear pressure) the Critical Mass is reduced such that only several kgs could be needed. The Hiroshima bomb had 6 kg in it.

Regardless the effect is still called Critical Mass. It is the bringing together of the materials to a denisty that it will self sustain the reaction that is called Critical Mass, not the numeric weight/mass that is required in room temperature and pressure.

Can you point me to where the N Koreans used only 0.4 kg of Uranium? I'm finding sites saying it was a 0.4 kiloton reaction, but not 0.4 kg of uranium....

Quote

The minimum mass of fissile material that can sustain a nuclear chain reaction is called a critical mass and depends on the density, shape, and type of fissile material, as well as the effectiveness of any surrounding material (called a reflector or tamper) at reflecting neutrons back into the fissioning mass. Critical masses in spherical geometry for weapon-grade materials are as follows:
   Uranium-235   Plutonium-239
Bare sphere: 56 kg 11 kg
Thick Tamper: 15 kg 5 kg

The critical mass of compressed fissile material decreases as the inverse square of the density achieved. Since critical mass decreases rapidly as density increases, the implosion technique can make do with substantially less nuclear material than the gun-assembly method. The "Fat Man" atomic bomb that destroyed Nagasaki in 1945 used 6.2 kilograms of plutonium and produced an explosive yield of 21-23 kilotons [a 1987 reassessment of the Japanese bombings placed the yield at 21 Kt]. Until January 1994, the Department of Energy (DOE) estimated that 8 kilograms would typically be needed to make a small nuclear weapon. Subsequently, however, DOE reduced the estimate of the amount of plutonium needed to 4 kilograms. Some US scientists believe that 1 kilogram of plutonium will suffice.
http://www.fas.org/n...nuke/design.htm

Quote

Nazi scientists figured out how to compress deuterium sufficiently to ignite a fusion burn which then saturated a compressed fissile target with sufficient neutrons to replicate criticality in a "natural fissile Critical Mass"
This again is either opinion or hearsay.

So now you are saying the Germans invented Fusion? And fission? It might have been possible, but I've yet to see evidence that it happened. AFAIK the deuterium plants they had never really produced even a fraction of the deuterium they would have needed. But, that might just be History-written-by-the-Conquorer talking....

Edited by DieChecker, 12 March 2013 - 09:51 PM.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#60    keninsc

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 10:22 PM

Does it not strike you as odd that such a secret project would have been known to an ally? We told no one until Pottsdamn about our project......of course Stalin already knew about it.

The Germans never had a bomb or a program to speak of.





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