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The Only Way to Escape Hell


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#16    libstaK

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 01:12 AM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 11 August 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

one of the books ruled apopyrhical by the Council of Nicea had either Peter or Paul getting a guided tour of Heaven, and seeing the uffering in Hell said "Oi! What about them then?" and being told by his guide (iirc the Prophet Daniel) that the suffering would end when a truely devout soul in Heaven asked God to forgive them. Oddly enough, the idea that Hell wasn't a permenent place of suffering wasn't well liked at Nicea so as quietly consigned to the dust bin.
How interesting because I have always maintained this was already done.  Jesus Christ's next to last words on the cross were "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".

I guess Nicea "missed a bit" in their endeavours to cull ... don't have much nice to say about the Canon according to Nicea btw, just saying.

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

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#17    Beany

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 03:24 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 12 August 2012 - 01:05 AM, said:

I'll bring the marshmallows.

Hell is not a place it is a state of mind. Just ask those ruined by meth or heroin.

I never ubderstood why Jesus was such a sacrifice. It dosnt seem like anything was sacrificed if indeed he was god and was ressurected. Where is the sacrifice in that?
You're right, hell is not only a metaphor, it can also be a condition.  And it's all here on our planet: pogroms, ethnic cleansing, gulags, extermination camps, all one needs to do is look on a globe or a map to find hell, created not by satan, but by our own brothers & sisters. If there is an epic battle between good & evil, God & Satan, it is being fought here, out in the open, with millions of witnesses and millions of victims, with each of us choosing sides by our own inaction or action. It's not a war of words or ideas, either, it's being fought with guns and swords, RPGs, missiles, chemicals, for power and wealth.

Edited by Beany, 12 August 2012 - 03:28 AM.


#18    lozaleibou

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 07:08 AM

View PostKryso, on 11 August 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

I believe there is a guide book on the subject, by someone who went there and back: Dante's Inferno. A book - just like the Bible. Written by man - just like the Bible.

Kryso, you believe that Dante went to hell and came back? Yet you won't believe that Jesus, died and rose again to tell us the way to be free.....Yes, the bible was penned by man, but it is the Inspired, Infallible word of God....how else can you possibly explain 66 volumes, written in the time frame of 2,000 year by 40 different people and the central theme, the constant message does not change - our Creator gave us the greatest gift of free will - the freedom to chose His way or our own way. But that gift came at a price and God chose to pay the price for that gift - Jesus was the way He paid it, and in the Bible - the very words of God - from beginning to end, that story of redemption doesn't change. How do you explain that? I am praying that the blinders that the enemy has firmly on you will be lifted, and you will see the truth - the truth that has not changed since the beginning of time, the truth that will never change for all of eternity. We are created, eternal beings. Your final address - where you will be spending eternity is up to you - you have free will, given at a cost that we could never pay on our own. What are you going to do with that gift? What are you going to do with this knowledge of Jesus Christ? Who is Jesus Christ to you?


#19    Rlyeh

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 08:12 AM

View Postlozaleibou, on 12 August 2012 - 07:08 AM, said:

how else can you possibly explain 66 volumes, written in the time frame of 2,000 year by 40 different people and the central theme, the constant message does not change
You must be reading a different book then.

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I am praying that the blinders that the enemy has firmly on you will be lifted, and you will see the truth - the truth that has not changed since the beginning of time, the truth that will never change for all of eternity.
Thinking is much more effective.
It's also rather odd your "truth" begins with a fictional story.

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Who is Jesus Christ to you?
A dead man.

Edited by Rlyeh, 12 August 2012 - 08:14 AM.


#20    Beany

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 03:54 PM

Dante didn't literally travel to hell & back. The story is an allegory or parable. They are ways of bringing abstract ideas into the physical world with the aim of increasing understanding of these ideas. Unfortunately, many people have come to believe in the allegories are real and true stories, instead of a representation of an idea. i.e. depictions of imps & demons in religious art. Those figures are a representation of an idea, not a representation of something the artist actually saw or omething that actually lived, but a way of  introducing the concept of sin on to the canvas. Here's the definition of allegory: a. The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.


b. A story, picture, or play employing such representation. John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress and Herman Melville's Moby Dick are allegories.

2. A symbolic representation: The blindfolded figure with scales is an allegory of justice.It




#21    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 10:02 PM

View PostlibstaK, on 12 August 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

How interesting because I have always maintained this was already done.  Jesus Christ's next to last words on the cross were "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".
I thought that was Jesus saying "don't be pissed off at these idiots, they're actually following "the plan" even though they're doing it more gleefully then I'd have liked".

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I guess Nicea "missed a bit" in their endeavours to cull ... don't have much nice to say about the Canon according to Nicea btw, just saying.
The whole point of Nicea was an exercise in control, cherry picking the bits of the NT and Epistles that promote their view of Christianity and suppressing the rest.

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

#22    ZaraKitty

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:32 PM

Seen this nice little quote before.

No loving God will torture someone for eternity because they were misguided and jaded in life. I cannot fathom this kind of mentality.

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#23    SunGod

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 01:18 PM

To decrypt mystical teaching of sufis , cabballahs , budhist etc. And the word of god written on books and big stones in each country almost around the world.

"ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. " Jesus ( Gamachi'sa)
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."  Albert Einstein.

#24    Jackofalltrades

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 02:06 PM

View PostToadie, on 10 August 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

Best way to escape hell is not to believe in it

Does that also mean that if a criminal commits a crime and DOES NOT believe a prison exists they wont go to it ?

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#25    Beany

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 02:46 PM

View PostJackofalltrades, on 18 August 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

Does that also mean that if a criminal commits a crime and DOES NOT believe a prison exists they wont go to it ?
Poor analogy. Prisons exist is this time/space continuum, are composed of matter, we can see them, touch them, experience them with our sense, whereas heaven and hell are concepts, with no physical existence that has been found.


#26    Ben Masada

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 09:00 PM

View PostToadie, on 10 August 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

Best way to escape hell is not to believe in it

Easy said than done. Tell this to the preachers of the gospels. They need hell to make a living.

Ben


#27    Ben Masada

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 09:03 PM

View Postbones101proof, on 10 August 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

My question is where is hell exactly? And do other planets have a local hell also, or is it interplanetary? How about for animals? You know, like bad dogs that chew your new shoes and get into the trash can while you're out on a sinful gluttonous fast food run? Did they ever mention that part?

Hell is the grave, where we all must go to some day, including the dogs who chew new shoes.

Ben


#28    Ben Masada

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 09:53 PM

View Postlozaleibou, on 11 August 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

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The only way to escape hell is to believe that Jesus took that punishment for you when he died on the cross.

Well, according to the Scriptures, "Through his own fault only shall any one die." (Jer. 31:30)  What Jesus are you talking about, a Greek one? If he was Jewish, he could not have died for another.

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Ben, why would Jesus say 'I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me.' John 14:6?

Because he was Jewish and spoke as part of the Jewish People.

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No mention of Moses there. Jesus came to fulfil the law - to be the once-and-for-all atonement for all sins so that we can spend eternity with Him.

And to warn us all - the Jews - to do exactly the same. (Mat. 5:18,19) Through his own foult only shall anyone die. (Jer. 31:30) There is no eternity to spend with as far as man is concerned. (Gen. 3:22) Only God is eternal. Whoever is born must die. Death is part of life.

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The law as given to show just how inadequate we are - there is no one, except for Jesus, that is capable of meeting every letter on the law.

The Law in the Golden Rule says that we should not do unto others what we would not like they did unto us. Do you think the money-changers in the front  area before the Temple liked to be whipped and caused financial damage to their way to make a living? I don't think so. Therefore, Jesus broke the Law. Read John 2:15. Did Jesus meet that letter of the Law? Obviously not. It means he was also a sinner just like anyone else.

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This is why Jesus was the only acceptable atonement for man - because he was perfect in thought, word and deed.

Would you like to be called a fraud, a wicked person, blind guide, blind fool, whitewashed tomb full of filth, a murder, brood of serpent, etc? I don't think you would. Read Mat. 23:13-34. If that's true, those were the terms Jesus addressed the Pharisees with. Was he still perfect by breaking the Golden Rule?

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He was a willing sacrifice for all of humanity

Are you sure? How can you see willingness in Jesus in the Gethsemane where he prayed for three times in sweats of blood asking not to have to die on the cross? When he realized he was wasting his time, he said "Be thy will done BUT NOT MINE." Not mine! Yes, it means that it was not his will to die for nobody.
The poor fella was pushed to the cross against his will. (Mat. 26:39)

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you just have to believe in you heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus rose from the dead and IS God - Romans 10:9. That's how you escape hell.

Jesus was a Jewish man whose Faith was Judaism. There is no such a thing as a man being god in Judaism. Unless he was a Greek demigod which is the son of a god with an earthly woman.

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BTW Toadie, that attitude is going to get you a front row seat in the lake of fire. You can sinceely believe that gravity doen't exist - you can't see it, smell it, taste it, hear it or touch it - but when you jump off a cliff, you'll know it exists - but by then it's too late.

Perhaps you think you are discussing this issue with a Greek person? Your talk is too hellenistic. Nothing Jewish to talk about Jesus.

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Don't make the same foolish mistake here. Eternity is going to be a long time.

Let me enlighten you about eternity. Read Genesis 3:22. Eternal life was not an attribute granted to man. When Adam and Even were banished from the Garden of Eden, the reason was to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. It means that eternity was not for man but for God only.

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Seek the truth, the absolute truth - not the worlds version of the truth, and I pray that you will believe Jesus when He lifts the blinders off your eyes.

What is the truth? Jesus said that the truth is the Word of God, according to John 17:17. The Word of God which was given to Israel only and to no other people on earth. Read Psalm 147:19,20. Now, you know who has the truth. "To the Law and the Testimony; if you don't speak according to this method, it is because you do not have the truth." (Isa. 8:20)

Ben


#29    Ben Masada

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 09:58 PM

View PostKryso, on 11 August 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

I believe there is a guide book on the subject, by someone who went there and back: Dante's Inferno. A book - just like the Bible. Written by man - just like the Bible.

I have read Dante's Inferno twice. Not that "just like the Bible." Unless you mean the NT. The idea is there, but not "just like." Written by man, yes, I agree with you.

Ben


#30    Ben Masada

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 10:01 PM

View PostLilly, on 11 August 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

Every religion purports to have the one true way to salvation...believe in the religion and escape punishment and/or hell. However, none of these religions ever offers up any proof for this notion.  Kind of interesting when one thinks about it.

There is no proof for what does not exist; I mean, in Christian terms. But hell as the grave, people go there everyday soon or later.

Ben





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