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"In atheists we distrust"


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#91    me-wonders

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 03:57 PM

View PostSherapy, on 03 January 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

Great point,  (I'd add with the emphasis being for MW)  I do not think love has much of a place in the land of the law, this is where I think religion places a stipulation (love) where none is actually needed. I do not need to love anything or anyone to follow the rules. I simply choose to be a part of accepting the rule of the law for the betterment of the myself and the whole to ensure quality of life and freedom for all. Personally, I do not see a need/place for religion, but I am not opposed to anyone who does.

When I was young an older woman said when I got older I would want religion in my life.  I now understand well the truth of what she said, as well as holding the understanding of youth being too busy with other things, to care about spiritual matters, expect to wonder if ghost are real, and if a love potion can really work.  So now as I ponder the spiritual truths, I know I wasn't always so moved to do so, as I think of such things now. However, religions are very damaging to my belief in God, because they focus on an unbelievable God, and insist if their idea of God is not accepted, then a person doesn't have God and morals.  They do not recognize myth for what it is, and confuse myth as literally God's truth, and it is when we think we know God, that we know God not.

Joseph Campbell wrote of how similar myths around the world are.  He said people everywhere get spontaneous spiritual awareness, and often this awareness is preserved in a myth.  "Myth is to bring us into a consciousness that is spiritual".  

And then we have Chardin, the Catholic priest who was forbidden to publish, because the church said his work is full of flaws.  :whistle:   Like the bible is a book validated by science?  :td: Anyway, Chardin said we are , "the process of evolution reflecting on itself."
Chardin said, God is asleep in rocks and minerals, waking in plants and animals, to know self in man.


I want pull The-Unexpected-Soul into this matter of  what humans are.   I think our judgment regarding all human matters is greatly improved with science, so I really wish, as Christians gave up the notion that the earth is the center of the universe, religions would give up the idea that we are not product of evolution.   However, I agree some atheist take this too far.  What other animal reflects on the nature of self and God?  Can any other animals be reverent and in awe?  We not only think, but we think about what we think, and we can know there is far more to know than we will ever personally know.  In fact, the more we know, the more we know of what we do not know.   Humans take thinking to a whole new level, and when our lives are behind us, we have time to reflect on God.  :wub:

I do want to say, those who speak of love are right on.  God is not just an intellectual consideration, but very much about our attitude and feeling.  Believing there is a God, and experiencing love, go hand in hand.

Edited by me-wonders, 04 January 2013 - 04:26 PM.


#92    ChloeB

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 04:40 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 29 December 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:

The title for this thread comes from a short article by Ara Norenzayan, associate professor of psychology at the university of Vancover in British Columbia in the New Scientist 17 march 2012 I will write out the article here

One of the most persistent but hidden prejudices tied to religion is intolerance of atheists.Surveys consistently find that  in societies with religious majorities, atheists have one of the lowest approval ratings of any social group, including other religions.(American Sociological review, vol. 71, p 211)

This intolerance has a long history., Back in 1689 Enlightenmant philosopher John Locke wrote in "A Letter Concerning Toleration."

"Those are not at all to be tolerated who deny the being of God. Promises, Covenants and Oaths, which are the Bonds Of Humane Society, can have no hold upon an atheist"

Why do believers reject atheists, who are not a visible, powerful or even coherent social group? The answer seems to be the same force that helped religions expand while maintaing social cohesion: supernatural surveillance.

My colleagues Will Gervaise, Azim shariff and I have found that Locke's intuition-that atheists cannot be trusted to cooperate- is the root of the intolerance.(Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, vol.101,p.1189)

Outward displays of belief in a watchful God are viewed as a proxy for trustworthiness. Intolerance of atheists is driven by the intuition that people behave better if they feel that a God is watching them.

While atheists think of their disbelief as a private matter of conscience, believers treat their absence of belief in a supernatural surveillance as a threat to cooperation and honesty.

Any spelling errors etc. are my own.

I am interested in comments, opinions and observations, on this POV.

This is something that kind of relates something we've been studying, Kohlberg's Cognitive Moral Development Theory.  I think theists tend to put their trust in the very first stage:

Posted Image

And not just theists, but obedience to avoid punishment is probably the foundation of our behavior, as that is how we are raised up as small children, but I think where the distrust lies when a theist would compare a fellow theist to an atheist in levels of trustworthiness is that there are some areas where people can probably reliably consider that they can act without getting caught, as authorities can't be everywhere all the time, but a theist believes that God is always there, always watching and demands obedience and will dole out punishment, nothing escapes God's watchful eyes; therefore, a theist believing this will feel that his behavior is scrutinized always and believe he conducts himself accordingly regardless if any human could possibly ever know and if consequences aren't necessarily certain, but he will always believe God is judging and watching so he would probably believe himself to be less likely to do things immoral, wrong, selfish, harmful, etc. than an atheist who doesn't have the threatening feeling of the eye in the sky that sees all.

“You've gotta dance like there's nobody watching,
Love like you'll never be hurt,
Sing like there's nobody listening,
And live like it's heaven on earth.”
― William W. Purkey

#93    ChloeB

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:01 PM

View Postme-wonders, on 04 January 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

When I was young an older woman said when I got older I would want religion in my life.  I now understand well the truth of what she said, as well as holding the understanding of youth being too busy with other things, to care about spiritual matters, expect to wonder if ghost are real, and if a love potion can really work.  So now as I ponder the spiritual truths, I know I wasn't always so moved to do so, as I think of such things now. However, religions are very damaging to my belief in God, because they focus on an unbelievable God, and insist if their idea of God is not accepted, then a person doesn't have God and morals.  They do not recognize myth for what it is, and confuse myth as literally God's truth, and it is when we think we know God, that we know God not.

Joseph Campbell wrote of how similar myths around the world are.  He said people everywhere get spontaneous spiritual awareness, and often this awareness is preserved in a myth.  "Myth is to bring us into a consciousness that is spiritual".  

And then we have Chardin, the Catholic priest who was forbidden to publish, because the church said his work is full of flaws.  :whistle:   Like the bible is a book validated by science?  :td: Anyway, Chardin said we are , "the process of evolution reflecting on itself."
Chardin said, God is asleep in rocks and minerals, waking in plants and animals, to know self in man.


I want pull The-Unexpected-Soul into this matter of  what humans are.   I think our judgment regarding all human matters is greatly improved with science, so I really wish, as Christians gave up the notion that the earth is the center of the universe, religions would give up the idea that we are not product of evolution.   However, I agree some atheist take this too far.  What other animal reflects on the nature of self and God?  Can any other animals be reverent and in awe?  We not only think, but we think about what we think, and we can know there is far more to know than we will ever personally know.  In fact, the more we know, the more we know of what we do not know.   Humans take thinking to a whole new level, and when our lives are behind us, we have time to reflect on God.  :wub:

I do want to say, those who speak of love are right on.  God is not just an intellectual consideration, but very much about our attitude and feeling.  Believing there is a God, and experiencing love, go hand in hand.

“There seem to be only two kinds of people: Those who think that metaphors are facts, and those who know that they are not facts. Those who know they are not facts are what we call "atheists," and those who think they are facts are "religious." Which group really gets the message?”
Joseph Campbell, Thou Art That: Transforming Religious Metaphor

...................neither group gets it imo.

“You've gotta dance like there's nobody watching,
Love like you'll never be hurt,
Sing like there's nobody listening,
And live like it's heaven on earth.”
― William W. Purkey

#94    Bluefinger

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:02 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 29 December 2012 - 01:53 AM, said:

I lll trust an atheist far sooner than a fundamentalist. That's for sure.

I have seen "scales" of spiritual development that put atheistic thought quite high on the development list, as aposed those that follow specific religions.

I think that thought development improves when the family core within a society improves.  We can see low development in impoverished urban areas.  There is also an increase in crime rate in those areas, far greater than in areas with higher development.  Certainly, these people don't leave impregnated women alone, rob banks, and curse at a judge in court simply because their religion tells them to.  So the use of religion isn't really the culprit in poor thought development, as you stated.

Quote

Where the problem exist is the assumption that morality is based on spiritual beliefs....it is in a way, but morality comes from a deeper place me thinks.

In regards to hostility toward atheism, it is often accused as an evil belief that leads to the breakdown of society.  While many religions have broken down society, the source of social breakdown is more often than not to be because of political corruption.

This can even be learned by reading the Bible.  Jesus challenged the political leaders of the Jewish Nation, calling them corrupt and self-serving.  They had him killed, which is typical in societies where activists challenge political corruption, such as the case with Pope John Paul I.  He was going to air out the dirty laundry between the Vatican Bankers, the Mafia, and the Free Masons.  He was killed 33 days after becoming Pope.

As Jesus was led to the cross, women mourned for Him.  His response was that they should mourn for themselves an their children.  Forty years later, Jewish robbers and thugs hijacked the Jewish war with Rome and committed all sorts of wicked deeds against the inhabitants of Jerusalem.  About 1.1 million Jews died at Jerusalem in 70 CE.  

This proves my point:  Political corruption is followed by social breakdown.  Not necessarily religion.

Quote

I tend to fall into the cultural relativist camp on morality. Religons ten to influence culture, therefor anyone not believing in that religion is suspect, even though that person is just as affected by the moral base of the religion despite not being a follower of it.

I disagree.  History proves that culture changes religion more than religion changes culture.  How else did we get a Latin theology that differs so greatly from the original Hebrew theology?  Culture changes religion.  It magnifies the elements it agrees on and rejects those it doesn't.  Why else do you think that Bishop Shelby Spong has gine through great lengths to spread Unorthodox Christian teachings that support homosexuality?  Such a thing wasn't necessary 60 years ago.  Why?  Because culture didn't challenge it.  That proves my point, I believe.

It is not enough to have a good mind.  The main thing is to use it well.     - Descartes

#95    ChloeB

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:14 PM

View PostBluefinger, on 04 January 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:



I disagree.  History proves that culture changes religion more than religion changes culture.  How else did we get a Latin theology that differs so greatly from the original Hebrew theology?  Culture changes religion.  It magnifies the elements it agrees on and rejects those it doesn't.  Why else do you think that Bishop Shelby Spong has gine through great lengths to spread Unorthodox Christian teachings that support homosexuality?  Such a thing wasn't necessary 60 years ago.  Why?  Because culture didn't challenge it.  That proves my point, I believe.

I agree with you there, and I don't know why people can't just say that changing cultures are why we see such a different attitudes in the God of OT and NT, but people need their absolutes and their religious beliefs to be of divine source and not influenced by man, even when they so obviously are.  They change with mankind and their environment and that's probably a good indicator any personification or anthropomorphization of God has man's signature all over it, as in the bible, a product of a time and culture past.

“You've gotta dance like there's nobody watching,
Love like you'll never be hurt,
Sing like there's nobody listening,
And live like it's heaven on earth.”
― William W. Purkey

#96    scowl

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:40 PM

View PostBluefinger, on 04 January 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

I think that thought development improves when the family core within a society improves.  We can see low development in impoverished urban areas.  There is also an increase in crime rate in those areas, far greater than in areas with higher development.

There's a "cause and causation" issue with that statement. Perhaps people who don't have the economic power of a two-income family household have fewer choices about where to live. It doesn't mean they're stupid. It means they can't live someplace with nice schools.

Also outside of "impoverished urban areas" you can find plenty of large uneducated families living in rural poverty everywhere in America.

Quote

This can even be learned by reading the Bible.  Jesus challenged the political leaders of the Jewish Nation, calling them corrupt and self-serving.  

What Jewish Nation? The Jews had a province under the Roman Empire at that time but it wasn't a nation. If the Jewish leaders were guilty of anything, it was bowing to the Romans to give their people some degree of freedom.


#97    Bluefinger

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 06:24 PM

View Postscowl, on 04 January 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:



There's a "cause and causation" issue with that statement. Perhaps people who don't have the economic power of a two-income family household have fewer choices about where to live. It doesn't mean they're stupid. It means they can't live someplace with nice schools.

Also outside of "impoverished urban areas" you can find plenty of large uneducated families living in rural poverty everywhere in America.

When people address the social aspect of education and religion, they are rarely referring to rural areas.  Rarely to we hear of impoverished rural families.  Uneducated, maybe.  But the education they receive is sufficient for their society.  People in urban areas have the problem of dense populations consuming more resources than they can provide.

So I think my point still stands.  The issue we have is that political corruption causes poverty among those they betray and poverty often leads to widespread crime.  Often religion is used to keep things that way.  That does not mean that religion is the cause though.  As a Christian, even I can recognize this dynamic.

Quote

What Jewish Nation? The Jews had a province under the Roman Empire at that time but it wasn't a nation. If the Jewish leaders were guilty of anything, it was bowing to the Romans to give their people some degree of freedom.

You might want to read Flavius Josephus' works The Antiquities of the Jews and The Wars of the Jews.  Judea was a sovereign nation until about 37 BC, when its last king was usurped by an Idumean named Herod and was handed over to imprisonment.  But what Josephus also discusses is the many corruptions among the Jews in the political realm.  Lastly, the Jews overthrew their oppressors in 66 CE only to set over themselves merciless an bloodthirsty tyrants.  Yes, political corruption did lead to the breakdown of their society.  Since the temple was rebuilt, politicians among the Jews were entrenched in conspiracy as they murdered each other for seats of power.  Their internal power struggle led to Judea's collapse.

It is not enough to have a good mind.  The main thing is to use it well.     - Descartes

#98    Capt Amerika

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 08:12 PM

Interesting article.
I have found my interactions with Atheists to be much different however.
In the article the writer says
"While atheists think of their disbelief as a private matter of conscience, believers treat their absence of belief in a supernatural surveillance as a threat to cooperation and honesty."
I have noticed in todays society it is the Atheist that tends to be the intolerant one.  (painting with wide brush here, i realize most just mind their own business)
Every year around Christmas time they flow out of the woodwork to proclaim that there is no god!
Stop the Myth!  Stop the Lies! etc...
I for one believe in God.  I do not attend church as it is my choice not to.
I can not prove Gods existence, and therefore i do not belittle anyone for their beliefs or non-beliefs.
I believe in the "live and let live" concept, i find it makes everyone happy.
In the end, Not one single person on this planet can point ot 100% absolute proof of how we got here. whether it be from a creation of a deity, evloving from a wet rock or simply abandonded here as criminals by aliens  :alien:
Until that day comes, i wish everyone would just be tolerant of everyone elses beliefs and non-beliefs.


#99    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 08:56 PM

View PostCapt Amerika, on 04 January 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

Every year around Christmas time they flow out of the woodwork to proclaim that there is no god!

Around Christmas time you say?  Interesting ...  Well, it could be that they like to do a spot of moonlighting .How it works is - .At Christmas they are atheist and they chant - "THERE IS NO GOD ..YOU PESKY BELIEVERS"  Then for the rest of the year they turn intro more agnostic, and chant - WELL, MAYBE THERE IS A GOD?.. WE JUST...... DON'T KNOW !! :P

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 04 January 2013 - 08:56 PM.

Posted ImageRAW Berris... Dare you enter?

If there's a heaven...I hope to hell I get there !

#100    Mr Walker

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:47 PM

View PostSherapy, on 03 January 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

Great point,  (I'd add with the emphasis being for MW)  I do not think love has much of a place in the land of the law, this is where I think religion places a stipulation (love) where none is actually needed. I do not need to love anything or anyone to follow the rules. I simply choose to be a part of accepting the rule of the law for the betterment of the myself and the whole to ensure quality of life and freedom for all. Personally, I do not see a need/place for religion, but I am not opposed to anyone who does.
Why do you care about bettering yourself or "the whole"? Why worry about "quality of life"? Why choose "to be a part"?  Caring, of which love is a part because without love there is no care or compassion, is the motivator.

People who dont care only obey the law for fear, particularly of consequence; or from a learned sense of duty/obligation/obedience to law. In both cases, if they cannot be observed they may chose not to obey the law or treat people with respect and care. However an inner motivation of love drives a person, regardless of whether anyone else ever knows how they will act.
Religion, in itself, has nothing to do with love, any more than with fear, but fear and religion, or love and religion, may go together due to how an individual person thinks. Non religious people fear and love just the same as religious ones.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#101    Mr Walker

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:00 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 04 January 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

Oh not at all..I still laugh at things that are funny..I will joke as and when I feel it is right



You said it, not me lol :P



I use lol after funny sentences or jokes I have read, or to show people I am joking, but always at the end of my sentence...  I never feel the need or see the sense in places long winded acronyms  at the beginning of ANY sentence,  in fact, I never will see the logic in using any amount of acronyms at the beginning of any sentence either..It just doesn't  look right, and I cannot see the intelligence within it..


I personally find that behaviour awkward.It makes me feel awkward if I see people do this.... Maybe it's just me, but my dad was the same, he too would have given strange looks to anyone behaving like that..   If I am reading something serious  or I post something I see as serious,  laughing at what I say in that manner I find odd..  If I was sitting face to face with someone, and said the same thing  about Julia Gillard, and they burst out on the floor laughing, I would think they lost it, it would make me feel awkward !



I made a thread back in April of last year  -Acronyms, Abbreviations and Text speak..!..http://www.unexplain...howtopic=226344 ...That thread explains what I have trouble with, and what I accept..Feel free to read it if you have time.... I am fine with lol at the end of jokes and sentences, but overly used and long winded at the start of senescence, ticks me off..Maybe I am being old fashioned ? Maybe I just cannot get to grips with it ? Or get used to it?   I don't know, all I know is I don't like it..It could be because I have seen some people do this as a result of a disagreement, it comes off as an attempt to belittle their opponent in a condescending manner.. I have read a few posts from others, who were in disagreement, and did the same thing, posting up long acronyms to laugh at them at the beginning of their posts..I saw others who did in fact see it as an act of belittling and condescending, I agree with them



POS?   in my previous job, POS stood for - Point of Sale..I have no idea what you are meaning though?



Would you accept an English paper  written in acronyms  filled with ROFLMAO and chopped text? In my day at school, we never did that.. Our work was always presented in proper English.. If it was full of nonsense like that, our teacher would have binned it and failed us..

In my own country Mr Walker, it has gotten worse... So many were used to using poor grammar.. An example of this is - That there book was blah blah..  I class that as bad grammar, but like I said, it has gotten worse with the young ones on  Facebook.. Instead of posting their usual poor use of grammar, they make it worse by saying - Dat ( instead of that ) and der ( instead of there ) it turns out like - Dat der...!!  Chopping up simple words like  - Don't ..they now get lazy and type - dn't, dropping ONE small letter.. Again that is sheer laziness and I find it all hard to read If I receive a poorly written text that is filled with chopped up words and acronyms all over it, I will not read it..  I text in full proper sentences...To me, that is much easier to read and understand.. I think that if this continues  ( and likely will do ) it will look as if the younger generation are dumbing themselves down  

Another that confuses me  is -  IDK...  When put into a sentence - "IDK he does this and that"   .. To me they could be saying they do know  OR they don't dnt know ?  I then just skip it and go on to read something with proper use of the English language



30% or even 35 % , it still stands for many people, and that was my statement.. Many people trust her... I pointed out previously, that many could stand for any number of people.. There is no fixed number linked to the term - Many people



Fair enough, you didn't mean it as a way to put my post down, .but when I write something serious,and see I am laughed at, it doesn't go well with me..I feel the person is not worth taking seriously.. You do understand? You know I do take many things as funny and will laugh at so much of it.. but not the serious notes..



I once laughed at the idea of so many voting Bush back into office for a second term, but that's all I did, laugh at it, at the same time I was shocked....I never fell and rolled around on the floor in fits at it  lol.. I guess I just react differently from yourself and so many others..  We are completely different people..



That's because a show like Fawlty Towers is very funny, and a shame they only made 12 episodes..  But at least you are laughing at something that is very funny..  I love the show, laughed at it many times   Ok not rolling around but I still laughed..( Favourite episodes are the ones about the Hotel Inpectors and Bazil the rat  ) .I have the box sets..  But if you were to do the same thing from watching a serious programme, that to me would be most odd
Probably comes down to my sense of humour. My wife and great niece don't get it . In fact my wife sounds a bit like; you takes serious things seriously. I am like calvin form calvin and hobbes. In life nothing is really serious unless you allow it to become so which spoils the game. None of my students get it but a few of my colleagues of the same generation and background are similar. I dont allow my students to wite without correct grammar etc but i cant stop how they speak to each other.
Oh, POS is parent(s) over shoulder which is when you move to the alternate face book page you have set up that is accpetable to a parent or moderate your language and topic of conversation, on line.

Yes, it might have been the rat episode, which was hilarious. or the one with the good looking  female guest.  I was on a reclining chair that was partly laid back, and I was laughing so much I slowly slid off the chair onto the floor and was just laughing so much i couldnt get back up again. I wasn't quite rolling but certainly writhing. Every time i started to calm down, Basil did something or said something that set me off again.

Ps I think problems with senescence are more likely to effect me than you. ( I think your spell checker let you down)

Also a lot of the language (like dat der) is an imitation of american rap artists mostly negro who use tthie own legitimate vernacular The kids hear it constantly on their music and then transpose it into a white australian or irish context/conversation which is about as legitimate as  a fake spanish or french accent.

Edited by Mr Walker, 04 January 2013 - 10:06 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#102    Mr Walker

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:14 PM

View PostChloeB, on 04 January 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

This is something that kind of relates something we've been studying, Kohlberg's Cognitive Moral Development Theory.  I think theists tend to put their trust in the very first stage:

Posted Image

And not just theists, but obedience to avoid punishment is probably the foundation of our behavior, as that is how we are raised up as small children, but I think where the distrust lies when a theist would compare a fellow theist to an atheist in levels of trustworthiness is that there are some areas where people can probably reliably consider that they can act without getting caught, as authorities can't be everywhere all the time, but a theist believes that God is always there, always watching and demands obedience and will dole out punishment, nothing escapes God's watchful eyes; therefore, a theist believing this will feel that his behavior is scrutinized always and believe he conducts himself accordingly regardless if any human could possibly ever know and if consequences aren't necessarily certain, but he will always believe God is judging and watching so he would probably believe himself to be less likely to do things immoral, wrong, selfish, harmful, etc. than an atheist who doesn't have the threatening feeling of the eye in the sky that sees all.

I hadnt read this when i posted today, but i agree with a lot of it.

It is not really about religion as such, but about the inner motivations and levels of consciousnes an individual reaches. The "god"  involved can be the inner god which potentially exists within every human, but if an individual doesnt recognise or hear that inner voice of god then they cannot heed it. Perhaps it is time to reveal the scientific findings on this issue. As my wife is off for a while, I  might get time to do that.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#103    Sherapy

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:24 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 04 January 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

Why do you care about bettering yourself or "the whole"? Why worry about "quality of life"? Why choose "to be a part"?  Caring, of which love is a part because without love there is no care or compassion, is the motivator.

People who dont care only obey the law for fear, particularly of consequence; or from a learned sense of duty/obligation/obedience to law. In both cases, if they cannot be observed they may chose not to obey the law or treat people with respect and care. However an inner motivation of love drives a person, regardless of whether anyone else ever knows how they will act.
Religion, in itself, has nothing to do with love, any more than with fear, but fear and religion, or love and religion, may go together due to how an individual person thinks. Non religious people fear and love just the same as religious ones.

What a great question: for me, being  a parent is my opportunity, reason, and personal experience of cultivating selflessness and love is the drive the motivator. Evolution has bestowed me with empathy so I am good to go. :) MW, quite frankly, being a parent is fertile ground for such work and inspires my drive and motivation for giving, for loving. I have been very fortunate to have this opportunity, to be honored with the role of parent, to get the chance to be selfless and unconditional. I am truly humbled/honored by my children.

Edited by Sherapy, 04 January 2013 - 11:13 PM.




#104    Sherapy

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:47 PM

View Postme-wonders, on 04 January 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

When I was young an older woman said when I got older I would want religion in my life.  I now understand well the truth of what she said, as well as holding the understanding of youth being too busy with other things, to care about spiritual matters, expect to wonder if ghost are real, and if a love potion can really work.  So now as I ponder the spiritual truths, I know I wasn't always so moved to do so, as I think of such things now. However, religions are very damaging to my belief in God, because they focus on an unbelievable God, and insist if their idea of God is not accepted, then a person doesn't have God and morals.  They do not recognize myth for what it is, and confuse myth as literally God's truth, and it is when we think we know God, that we know God not.

Joseph Campbell wrote of how similar myths around the world are.  He said people everywhere get spontaneous spiritual awareness, and often this awareness is preserved in a myth.  "Myth is to bring us into a consciousness that is spiritual".  

And then we have Chardin, the Catholic priest who was forbidden to publish, because the church said his work is full of flaws.  :whistle:   Like the bible is a book validated by science?  :td: Anyway, Chardin said we are , "the process of evolution reflecting on itself."
Chardin said, God is asleep in rocks and minerals, waking in plants and animals, to know self in man.


I want pull The-Unexpected-Soul into this matter of  what humans are.   I think our judgment regarding all human matters is greatly improved with science, so I really wish, as Christians gave up the notion that the earth is the center of the universe, religions would give up the idea that we are not product of evolution.   However, I agree some atheist take this too far.  What other animal reflects on the nature of self and God?  Can any other animals be reverent and in awe?  We not only think, but we think about what we think, and we can know there is far more to know than we will ever personally know.  In fact, the more we know, the more we know of what we do not know.   Humans take thinking to a whole new level, and when our lives are behind us, we have time to reflect on God.  :wub:

I do want to say, those who speak of love are right on.  God is not just an intellectual consideration, but very much about our attitude and feeling.  Believing there is a God, and experiencing love, go hand in hand.
Hmm, interesting position, thank you for taking the time to post; I enjoyed reading it. I enjoy MW too he is always a gracious gentlemen regardless of agreement and we rarely-- if ever agree. LOL
I think each person carves out a way and understanding that works/suits  them. I personally do not see it necessary to 'love' to be a law abiding, good citizen or to follow the rules, It is an honor for me.  Love is not a pre requisite for me, but it is for some and if that works for them I say good for them.

For me parenthood is the  path to love and selflessness, it is very real and it is immediate and hands on. I am not sure if you are a parent but if you are you will instantly relate. It is the best way I know of to cultivate love and selflessness. It is an opportunity one takes purely out of love. Would you agree?

Edited by Sherapy, 04 January 2013 - 11:07 PM.




#105    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 04:19 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 04 January 2013 - 10:00 PM, said:

Probably comes down to my sense of humour. My wife and great niece don't get it . In fact my wife sounds a bit like; you takes serious things seriously.

I don't take everything in life seriously.. I just feel there is a time for both fun and serious... I am always cracking some joke or looking for the humour in so many things on here, but at times I like to get into the serious things too..  It is who we are as people..It's just our nature, we can't help it, it's just who we are

Example..  My husband will laugh at IE - Something About Mary... He sat laughing, I sat face palming.. I thought the movie was dreadful..   I prefer comedy with great one liners...Like old classics for example movie classic - It's a mad mad mad mad world, that was hilarious..It is a movie, I would most likely watch again and again.. I love Fawlty Towers and other things John Cleese has done.. Monty Python.. I love stand up comedy..Billy Connelly is one of my favourites ..Another good example is..Hugh Laurie .. Best known for his role in House but I remember his comedy sketches with Stephen Fry.. A bit of Fry and Laurie.. those were really funny..  I like stuff like that

Quote

   Ps I think problems with senescence are more likely to effect me than you. ( I think your spell checker let you down)

My spell checker let me what now?  I don't get what it is you are saying here ?

Quote

   Also a lot of the language (like dat der) is an imitation of american rap artists mostly negro who use tthie own legitimate vernacular The kids hear it constantly on their music and then transpose it into a white australian or irish context/conversation which is about as legitimate as  a fake spanish or french accent.   

I have heard many young toddlers who are only learning to speak, and can't quite string a sentence together.. I have heard them say  things like - Dat Der ...OR what my daughter once was forever saying as a toddler -  "And dem"  ( And then ) .." I want one of dem " .. But they grow out of the baby talk and learn to speak properly... And here we have some grown ups and teenagers, speaking as if they are toddlers again....Talk about going backwards?   Blimey, it just doesn't get any more ridiculous than that

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 06 January 2013 - 04:22 PM.

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