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Loch Ness monster cited by US schools as

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#91    Cybele

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 11:44 PM

View PostJunior Chubb, on 02 July 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

Sorry to butt in...

http://www.reference...ientific theory

http://chemistry.abo...a/lawtheory.htm

http://www.fsteiger.com/theory.html

http://www.exchanged...tortheory.shtml

Don't know why I bothered with the links as Cybele had already provided one...

Yours are better. Thanks.

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#92    AlienDan

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 12:12 AM

I thought it was bad enough that some religious extremist youtubers are using proven-fake-UFO videos as proof that aliens (demons to them) are showing up so much because it's the end times. But this is just wow...


#93    BorisIWantToKnow

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 12:44 AM

View PostCybele, on 02 July 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

Please don't think that most of the country is this way. It's not. This story is newsworthy not only because it's ridiculous, but also because it's uncommon. I attended private, religious schools my whole life until university, and neither creationism nor intelligent design were taught or pushed.



You mean like Lucy?



Perhaps you should take some time to look at this site and others which lists hominid fossils by continent and by different regions of Africa.



Homo habilis, it seems.

Homo habilis is the first species for which we have positive evidence of use of stone tools.

http://en.wikipedia....Human_evolution
I don't think that of the entire nation, but damn they sure don't make it easy for us Europeans! :)

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#94    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 01:09 AM

View Postdharma warrior, on 02 July 2012 - 11:41 PM, said:

Using a myth to "debunk" a scientific fact? Isn't it supposed to be the other way around? When you give your heart to jesus, do you have to surrender your brain as well?


It makes you wonder -  Do people know what a myth really is?  lol...I thought it would be the other way around myself.. In General - Some people read a word like - theory.. and think it must mean  a guess  lol.....Many of them forget that even though Evolution is fact..it will still be called theory...... Not many anti evolutionsts  understand that ...So if you do not understand facts.. you can  look the silly one and not be aware .you may even post up junk poking fun at science and be too silly to notice how foolish it all looks

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 03 July 2012 - 02:03 AM.

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#95    ShadowSot

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 01:13 AM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 03 July 2012 - 01:09 AM, said:

*face palm* .... I would be too embarrassed to post that  lol



English isn't his first language, give him a break.

It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
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#96    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 01:25 AM

View PostShadowSot, on 03 July 2012 - 01:13 AM, said:

English isn't his first language, give him a break.

What has that got to do with it? I understood him fine ..In fact I didn't notice anything wrong with his use of English....you seemed to notice it.!!!  . And he has shown how he is against evolution.. so the post he made fits in with the read of his posts.. all link well...So there is nothing wrong with his English...nothing at all...I am not here to judge the use of English... I read post content and take it from there..

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 03 July 2012 - 01:32 AM.

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#97    ShadowSot

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 01:33 AM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 03 July 2012 - 01:25 AM, said:

What has that got to do with it? I understood him fine  and he has shown how he is against evolution.. so the post he made fits in with the read of his posts.. all link well
  Indeed he has, as well as his reluctance to read any of the information presented to him. Making fun of his spelling won't help matters, neither will editing your post.

It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
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#98    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 01:42 AM

View PostShadowSot, on 03 July 2012 - 01:33 AM, said:

  Indeed he has, as well as his reluctance to read any of the information presented to him. Making fun of his spelling won't help matters, neither will editing your post.

I never once made fun of anyone's spelling.  in fact  in all the years I have been on here..I never care to complain about spelling...so do not assume that's what my post meant .... All I said was - I would be embarrassed to post that.. MEANING ->  the myth used as a way to debunk the facts...I bolded it at the time..because that comment alone  if uttered by anyone.. sounds back to front  and weird to hear or read
A small typo does not mean much to me... might to others but not me, it certainly doesn't tell me anything about their English use..I myself make typos non stop.... the post content and what was said  stood out  more.(myths used to debunk a fact...I felt that was back to front. ) ..not a typo of a single  letter  !!..... I edited it because I see no point...If people want to believe myths trump facts.. I say let them.. It is not as if minds will change !

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 03 July 2012 - 02:32 AM.

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#99    csspwns

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 02:01 AM

it might actually work. they would try to bribe the scots and scientists.their best arguement would be tat even a scientist supports them.


#100    Beany

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 02:11 AM

How can believing something that is patently untrue be healthy or beneficial?


#101    Englishgent

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 02:19 AM

View Postthe L, on 02 July 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

We dont have evidence of evolution of todays anatomicly human because it probably happened in forest as our ancestors liked trees. And scince forset are acid areas>No fossils>No evidence.
Atleast thats what Taphonomy teach us.

Sorry but you are definitely wrong. It was the lush forests of prehistoric times which gave us fossil fuels. If you care to break open a few chunks of coal, you will no doubt find fossilied plantlife such as ferns etc. We also get amber from fossiled resin from these very trees. Therefore...fossils...=....evidence!   Looks like Taphonomy teaches the wrong thing :)


#102    Mr Walker

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 02:44 AM

View Postkarmakazi, on 02 July 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

I did not mean that our incapability to communicate made us different from other species, as far as we know, there is no species that can effectively communicate with a different species.

What I meant was, because we cannot communicate with other species, we assume ourselves to be unique.  They cannot tell us otherwise.




Yes.  Their OWN belief systems.  That was my point.




I said truth, not proof.  There's a difference, especially in spiritual matters.  Truth is something that is ultimately elusive because of the human condition, which is why anyone who believes they know truth is harmed by that belief - it is a falsehood.





Jumping to conclusions?  Just because I don't have a specific belief in who or what god is does not mean I'm an atheist.  I prefer to allow whatever is out there to reveal itself to me as it deems fit, not chase after a story written by someone else about their own personal experience.

Therein lies one of my biggest problems with belief.  Just because you have spiritual experiences does not mean the source of those experiences fits in the nice neat little package of a belief system.  Hence the reason I said belief closes people off from the truth.

None of us knows what is out there.  A belief is the assertion that you do know what is out there.  That is a delusion whether you like it, or not.




Incidentally, I have been clinically depressed off and on throughout my life.  A pill isn't a magic fix and I've never taken depression medication.  Instead, I've worked through my feelings by writing about them until I work through them.  It's very effective and it has really improved my ability to cope and interact with other people.  There are studies that show that exercising regularly may be as effective as anti-depressants.  Between journalling and exercise, there are two ways a person can help themselves rather than relying on magic pills.

That's what I'm talking about... doing the work to aleviate one's own suffering rather than taking a dodge.




Coping is simply a method of aleviating suffering.  Instead of avoiding it, you push through it to the other side and that is the only way to genuinely put the suffering behind you.





I am talking about people I have known all of my life, inside and out, and the other people I've met who have very, very similar personalities and beliefs.

Here's an example.  If you walked into a home where the person had boxes and garbage piled floor to ceiling with barely any room to walk, or a middle aged woman's house that was chock full of dolls or stuffed animals, would that seem healthy to you?  Would you look at it and think "Nope, this person is not suffering."  ?

There is something that happens in the mind that causes a person to do those things, something that most people agree isn't natural or healthy, and usually happens after tragedy that the person never fully copes with.  I'm talking about that exact same personality type, which instead of (or in addition to) hoarding turns to religion.



What makes you think I want to deny them?  I was merely pointing out something that I have observed.  Everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe.  This isn't me laying down laws of how to live, I am discussing observations I've made that relate to the overal context of the thread.  A discussion doesn't force or deny anyone the right to anything.

Furthermore, in reference to my example above, if someone is living in a hoarded house, the people who care about them recognize that it is not safe for them or healthy for them to avoid coping.  The same is true of anyone who avoids coping.  It degrades a person's ability to interact with others, to really live their lives, to even experience spiritual joy.

Not coping with something prolongs the pain... a placebo only masks the pain.




Think whatever you like, but understand that this has nothing to do with my own fears and prejudices.





Or because they are afraid not to... punishment for turning away is usually ultimate.





Yet a person who is not stupid is likely to give up their own sensibilities in order to be a part of something.  Scientific study has observed this effect, it's called groupthink.




I am suggesting that as human beings the great answers are too great for us to comprehend.  Therefore we should practice faith rather than belief.

I'm suggesting that forgiveness comes from within first, not from without.

I'm suggesting that belonging is awesome, only if you belong because you're being true to yourself rather than liking or believing or buying or saying something because it will make you appear to belong.  This is something many people do (dare I say most?) even if you can't see it.
Ok with each response I am coming to understand your world view a little better. I agree, in part withyour first two points but our science allows us to understand our own neurological and linguistic capabilities, and also to look at those of all other life forms. We can see and understand ourselves and other life forms and we CAN ascertain the differences .
Third point. i was asking a question. If you dont/cant KNOW that god does not exist, then your position is a belief, same as a believers; and formed on the same basis and using simliar logic and rationales. You are absolutley wrong in regards to belief in saying that believe something as truth is harmful All the evidences and statistics illustrate otherwise. If a physical truth is unknowable then any belief about it which is productive is a good belief. Thats WHY human form and hold beliefs. It is beneficial and productive to do so, irrespective of any unknowable truth.
An assertion is not a delusion  it is just an assertion.  If i argue that gravity is not a universal constant, then there is nothing delusional about that belief position.

As i suspected you believe in personal effort to overcome personall  problems. Very commendable and yes rational. But you are wrong to argue that because this works for you it is the BEST method. There is nothing wrong (and a lot of logic) in acieveng exactly yht e same results withnothing more than a change in mindset.

I can see why you might be upset, having worked so hard, if i told you, truthfully, that you could achieve the same results just by mental discipline or by a belief system. You see that as cheating or a weakness. I see it as a highly effective/efficient evolved abilty of humans to cope with many of the problems our self aware ness creates within us, such as our own inevitable mortality and abilty to grieve ..
I dont have much sympathy for martrys especially those who believe al others should also martyr them selves There is nothing wrong with coping while the grief cycle progresses Education in the stages of grief is essential but amny humas are rendered incapable for a time by the process of grief This is neither natural nor necessary Grief is a state of mind produced by the level of our self aware spaience It can be manipulated and controled through  that same self aware process. it is natural to grieve but not productive to grieve to a point where one is incapable or suicidal.
. I understand your points about pain and coping, but i repeat. Do you think pain and suffering should be accepted as a part of the natural human condition and why?  If so, do you refuse to take pain killers etc.

Sure one can learn to cope wit excruciating toothache but we gave up having to 150 years ago. Why should we see psychological pain and suffering as any different from, or inevitable than,  physical pain in our lives. We must recognise its purpose and consequences but we do not have to cope with it or endure it any more than we do with physicl apain There are many ways to cope and reduce pain one of the best known to mankind is faith /belief. It even considerably reduces the degree of physical pain a person experiences and strongly enhances psychological coping.
I think i must be missing something you are trying to explain, because i dont get your separation of faith /belief and religion. Religion is just a way humans codify their own spiritual beliefs and faiths. They may create their own or connect to one which appeals to them. It is the belief and faith which performs the healing, more than the religion, although social aspects of religion such as a community of supporters also helps.

Not coping with something prolongs the pain... a placebo only masks the pain.



I dont get this as part of your argument unless you honestly see pain as a good and neceesaary part of the human condition. Humans heal naturally but often need professional help to do so. Such professional help has only been  effectively available in the last two centuries for physical pain and in the last century for psychologial pain. There is no need for pain in a modernTlife true coping allieveates pain and so do placebos  Belief and faith do the same  They also integrate a person into a more healthy and  productive relationship with others and with their their environment bleifs have helped humans cope and reduce pain and suffering since we became self aware

I suspect you dont like/appreciate the use of faith and belief to cope. Fair enough dont use it for yourself, although i think that makes you a mug like someone who wont use painkillers when needed because they dont believe in them. BUT dont tell others or suggest, that it is cheating, unfair, dangerous, or counter productive. Both history and modern science proves that faith and belief is highly beneficial to human beings.
There is no evidence that the reasons for belief influence its outcomes. If the belief is genuine it will produce positive outcomes.

I disagree with you about why people believe, based on reading material on the construction of human  belief. I accept  that there are many motivators for belief, but  basically belief endures BECAUSE it works. We ALL live our life around a set of inner beliefs. Our moralities, ethics, even love and hate, are belief sets which determine our  behaviours.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#103    Mr Walker

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 02:58 AM

View PostBeany, on 03 July 2012 - 02:11 AM, said:

How can believing something that is patently untrue be healthy or beneficial?
All the evidence suggests that it not only can be, but Is.

However define "patently untrue" I agree that the creation of the earth by god is impossible on the scientific evidences and I am an evolutionist, but  what has that got to do with belief? Can you prove that god did not create the earth with all the evidences for creation included If not you can't logically argue with a person who holds to that belief You cant prove his BELIEF untrue. For a person with an apriori absolute belief in god then the evidences are immaterial They mus  be made to fit the existing belief system.

The good news for all humans is that the actual existence  or not of the god or entity believed in is irrelevant and immaterial. Just belief  alone confers huge physical and psychological benefits on a believer. The most modern studies in science, medicine and psychology, including those in the last 5 years continue to confirm this.

So; teach your children to believe in gaea the goddess of earth,  or in the pagan spirits of the environment, and actuarially, all other things being equal, they will have a longer happier and healthier life, suffer pain less, and be psychologically more "adjusted", than their athiestic counterparts.

This is also true whatever spiritual belief system they hold as individuals.
Personally i would look for a system which is also productive/ beneficial and suited to your  local society.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#104    Mr Walker

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 03:19 AM

View PostArbenol68, on 02 July 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

Bit of a strawman you've built there. You've not argued against anything I actually wrote.

We're talking about Young Earth Creationists. Your examples, whilst supported by some evidence, is related to religious beliefs in general. You wrote: "A religion or other belief may pass its use by date, but it will then evolve or adapt, or another will take its place". YEC is the antithesis of this.

YEC is not a "beneficial and productive belief system" - it's the unthinking adherence to dogma and ideology in the face of overwhelming evidence against it. I don't see how that could be beneficial.

See above posts. In general, belief is advantageous to the holder of the belief. However a belief like creationism if it is APPLIED in the real world may cause problems and disadvantges to the holder .

However i know amny people, including professional and highly educated people who believe in a creator god without any harmful effects on them or others. in fact because it is part of a larger belief which promotes helping others, such people generally benefit their neighbour hood and the world(and are, incidentally, because of their nature much loved and respected by their communities) Such peole often chose this belief because they know god is real or believe very srongly in gods existence From that they argue for a creator god whatever other evidences may argue against such a view.

I know god is real, but logically assume it is a product of the same evolutionary process I am. So i have no conflict between a real physical and powerful god, and evoution.

In general YEC is a last ditch effort to hold onto the concept of a creator god in face of all the scientif ic evidence now available. It requires a person either to fool/blind them selves about the science or to split their mind into knowledge and belief and prioritise belief; BUT the belief itself brings benefits to the believer and these are scientifically established. They have to be weighed against  the harm which can be done if such beliefs are allowed to be taught as fact.

I've already made clear my total opposition to the teaching of YEC as any form of fact, in schools or out of them. But in a free society the teaching of the BELIEF is as acceptable as any other,  and it does bring benefits to its believers that no one else has the right to deprive them of.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#105    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 04:12 AM

View PostCybele, on 02 July 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

You mean like Lucy?
No. Read what I wrote.

View PostCybele, on 02 July 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

Perhaps you should take some time to look at this site and others which lists hominid fossils by continent and by different regions of Africa.
Im aware about fossils elsewhere. Every new skull found we alomost found new spicies.So....Again we conclude about humans mostly from east side story.

View PostCybele, on 02 July 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

Homo habilis, it seems.

Homo habilis is the first species for which we have positive evidence of use of stone tools.

http://en.wikipedia....Human_evolution
I didnt go to see that link (I believe your quotation) but thats a pure lie since at site of earliest tools there are no signs of any spicies so scientists could not conclude who made them. You just gave example how people can easily be mislead. It seems ...Yes to ones who can be easily foolished.

Edited by the L, 03 July 2012 - 04:16 AM.

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."





Also tagged with evolution, loch ness monster, darwin, christian, schools

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