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A Battle of Two Muslim Women

niqab france spitzer cnn

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#1    Yamato

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 12:17 PM



My perspective favors the girl in the niqab, and I see no good reason why my perspective shouldn't have equal consideration under the law.

I don't agree with the title of the video incidentally.  These are both Muslim women and I'm not sure who "lost" the debate.  The point of discussion I would take here, is that different perspectives must be empowered in a free civil society.  Our founders paid considerable attention to our freedom of religion in particular, and presciently so.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#2    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 12:50 PM

View PostYamato, on 07 June 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

My perspective favors the girl in the niqab

Tell us something we do not already know..lol

This is going to be one of those   - You western society people are foolish   kind of threads, forgetting that it is set in western society   lol ......I can feel it ....* sigh*  :P

Both woman have the right..   But if it gets banned.. so be it...it is not the end of the world...But I know many Muslims  will create trouble if it is banned for sure...There would be a whole bunch of complaints all saying - What about religious freedom?    What you will not hear is - What about other freedom.. the freedom to ban what they like ?   Ohh no.  lol * fire in the hole* lol

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 07 June 2012 - 01:13 PM.

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#3    eight bits

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 12:59 PM

We do seem to be running into each other this morning, Y.

Quote

I see no good reason why my perspective shouldn't have equal consideration under the law.

You did in your other thread,

Quote

Oh my Americanism is showing.   I'm sure that the Xenophobia responsible for so many pop culture myths about the Qu'ran extends beyond my country's borders so this is really for everyone.

You're American. The law in question is (was?) France's. France offers freedom of conscience, but its constiutuon also guarantees its citizens a secular republic. In French law, secularism permits substantial legal restrictions on public, not private, expressions of religious sentiment. In contrast, American law guarantees free expression of religion.

Both women in your video were located in the United States. Either one can wear whatever they like here. One of the women aspires to change the American law. She'll probably be able to get laws that say that drivers licence photos must be unveiled and that veiled women must cooperate with TSA agents at airports. Walking down the street in America? Not a chance.

(Hi, BM. long time, no see. Welcome back.)

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#4    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 01:09 PM

View Posteight bits, on 07 June 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:



Both women in your video were located in the United States. Either one can wear whatever they like here. One of the women aspires to change the American law. She'll probably be able to get laws that say that drivers licence photos must be unveiled and that veiled women must cooperate with TSA agents at airports. Walking down the street in America? Not a chance.

(Hi, BM. long time, no see. Welcome back.)

Thanks eighty

I find it sad when   in today's world  so many will still want to live  in the ancient times. and not move on...Even if they are living in a more civilised society...

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#5    Yamato

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 02:41 PM

View Posteight bits, on 07 June 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

We do seem to be running into each other this morning, Y.



You did in your other thread,



You're American. The law in question is (was?) France's. France offers freedom of conscience, but its constiutuon also guarantees its citizens a secular republic. In French law, secularism permits substantial legal restrictions on public, not private, expressions of religious sentiment. In contrast, American law guarantees free expression of religion.

Both women in your video were located in the United States. Either one can wear whatever they like here. One of the women aspires to change the American law. She'll probably be able to get laws that say that drivers licence photos must be unveiled and that veiled women must cooperate with TSA agents at airports. Walking down the street in America? Not a chance.
I'm American; are you?

I did what in my other thread?

The legislative battle up for discussion here is happening in France, not the US.  Laws imposing on Islam in particular extend across the borders of the US, a relevant point to the other thread when I said that the video there is important to everyone, and not just Americans.

Even if we're not subjected to these laws personally we still have positions on this issue.  The difference between the women is to what degree Muslim women or anyone else should be discriminated against by their state due to their preference in clothing.  Do I support France arresting protesters for speaking out about their religious freedoms?  No of course not, and why would you do that?

The woman wearing the niqab expressed that she has no problem with driver's licenses or TSA agents at airports and so bringing that up doesn't broach her position, my position, or even a difference between the two women.  There's no argument there so let's not get into the habit of creating one out of nowhere.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#6    Yamato

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 02:43 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 07 June 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

I find it sad when   in today's world  so many will still want to live  in the ancient times. and not move on...Even if they are living in a more civilised society...
Then be who you want to be confident in your superiority and let others do the same.   Discrimination is what's sad in today's world.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#7    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 02:50 PM

View PostYamato, on 07 June 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

Then be who you want to be confident in your superiority and let others do the same.   Discrimination is what's sad in today's world.

What the heck? What do you mean by - Let others do the same?  Who the heck is  suggesting they cant??   Do you normally  read what you want to read  Or are you just making an effort for my sake?  

You  fall into the usual trap, that makes you see what is not there and you still hit on it...  No one is saying they cannot do squat...   And if many of us believe  it is wrong to do a certain thing or live a certain way.. then that is our right to say so....  I do not get why people like yourself will post up something like this, expecting opinions.. then when you get opinions you do not agree with.. you peg them as if they have said something and they dont have a right..

Discrimination is sad.. and you just demonstrated discrimination...you discriminate against our rights because our opinions do not match yours..and so you peg them into something  that is not said...   We have a right to call it how we see it like it or not... So quit adding in things that is not said...   I never suggested the woman couldn't do what she liked...I gave an opinion..and I stand by it..

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 07 June 2012 - 02:51 PM.

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#8    Yamato

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 02:54 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 07 June 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

What the heck? What do you mean by - Let others do the same?  Who the heck is  suggesting they cant??   Do you normally  read what you want to read  Or are you just making an effort for my sake?  

You  fall into the usual trap, that makes you see what is not there and you still hit on it...  No one is saying they cannot do squat...   And if many of us believe  it is wrong to do a certain thing or live a certain way.. then that is our right to say so....  I do not get why people like yourself will post up something like this, expecting opinions.. then when you get opinions you do not agree with.. you peg them as if they have said something and they dont have a right..

Discrimination is sad.. and you just demonstrated discrimination...you discriminate against our rights because our opinions do not match yours..and so you peg them into something  that is not said...   We have a right to call it how we see it like it or not... So quit adding in things that is not said...   I never suggested the woman couldn't do what she liked...
I respect your opinion so long as it doesn't infringe on someone else's freedom of expression, freedom of speech, and freedom of religion.  Let's all wear what we want to wear (i.e. let's not discriminate).   I don't have a position that discriminates against anyone with force of government. legally or otherwise.   You shouldn't be arrested like the Muslim protesters for disagreeing with me.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#9    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 03:05 PM

View PostYamato, on 07 June 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

I respect your opinion so long as it doesn't infringe on someone else's freedom of expression, freedom of speech, and freedom of religion.  Let's all wear what we want to wear (i.e. let's not discriminate).   I don't have a position that discriminates against anyone with force of government. legally or otherwise.   You shouldn't be arrested like the Muslim protesters for disagreeing with me.
You are at it again   .. If (meaning IF  as in hypothetical)I or anyone else were to protest a belief.. we own the right...just as much as people own the rights to hold a belief.. Your discriminating  ideas   say - they have but we dont..when you say  especially if it doesn't infringe on someone elses freedom  of expression, speech and religion...<-- you fail to see the irony of your statement? When you  try and tell others they cannot use their own  freedom of expression and speech . And I do not for the love of me get why you turn a blind eye to what is really said and make up what you want ia post to say  just to argue?

How come you completely ignored this post...


View PostBeckys_Mom, on 07 June 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

Both women have the right..  

My post says both have a right.. you blanked it out to pin my words to something you make up in your head ..... I notice we are talking about mind trickery in another thread.. I guess from reading your made up  idea..you are dabbling in mind tricks?  Your mind  is telling you my posts meant something else  lol..

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 07 June 2012 - 03:41 PM.

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#10    shadowhive

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 03:36 PM

I have a question Yamato. In Muslim countries a law which is the opposite in place. Women HAVE to cover up. They have no choice as it's a crime if they don't. Do you have a problem with that law too?

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
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#11    Yamato

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 03:56 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 07 June 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

You are at it again   .. If (meaning IF  as in hypothetical)I or anyone else were to protest a belief.. we own the right...just as much as people own the rights to hold a belief.. Your discriminating  ideas   say - they have but we dont..when you say  especially if it doesn't infringe on someone elses freedom  of expression, speech and religion...<-- you fail to see the irony of your statement? When you  try and tell others they cannot use their own  freedom of expression and speech . And I do not for the love of me get why you turn a blind eye to what is really said and make up what you want ia post to say  just to argue?

How come you completely ignored this post...




My post says both have a right.. you blanked it out to pin my words to something you make up in your head ..... I notice we are talking about mind trickery in another thread.. I guess from reading your made up  idea..you are dabbling in mind tricks?  Your mind  is telling you my posts meant something else  lol..
I'm fleshing out my position which is based on what we actually have a right to do.   We don't have a right to infringe on anyone else's rights; and preventing that from happening is the primary role of government.

I've never said that someone cannot use their own freedom of speech; what a preposterous notion!   We're free to say whatever we like, barring moderator intervention.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#12    Yamato

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 03:58 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 07 June 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

I have a question Yamato. In Muslim countries a law which is the opposite in place. Women HAVE to cover up. They have no choice as it's a crime if they don't. Do you have a problem with that law too?
Clothing should never be discriminated against by the force of government and I can't think of a single exception to this, and it doesn't have to be a Muslim country but certainly could be.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#13    Taun

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 04:06 PM

I was kind of hoping this "battle" involved a large pit of jello, mud or oil or something...

What a let down...


#14    Yamato

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 04:24 PM

View PostTaun, on 07 June 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

I was kind of hoping this "battle" involved a large pit of jello, mud or oil or something...

What a let down...
You speak to the "pinnacle of piety" vs. "pinnacle of objectification" dynamic in the video.  Culturally we are far more accepting of sexual objectification than we are religious.   Which is just fine, again, provided the government doesn't discriminate against us, especially by banning our freedoms as this case study does.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#15    Euphorbia

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 05:55 PM

View PostYamato, on 07 June 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

Clothing should never be discriminated against by the force of government and I can't think of a single exception to this, and it doesn't have to be a Muslim country but certainly could be.

I am a little torn between the right to be veiled or not.

I can't speak for France but in the United States:
  • On all identification that requires a photo ID, the picture must be taken unveiled.
  • If driving a car they must be unveiled so the driver and passengers can be seen. This is the same as in our laws that limit the amount of tinting on the windows so police officers can see in. You don't really have a right to privacy in your own vehicle out in public.
  • If entering any stores they must remain unveiled. Stores have surveillance cameras for a reason....to identify shoplifters or robbers.
  • Banks and other places (especially large venues) will also not let you in because it is the same as wearing a mask.
On the flip side:
  • They should be able to wear them at home or at friends houses.
  • Just walking down the street might be acceptable ( Can't think of a reason why not.)
But , if a woman wearing the veil tried to talk to me, I would ask her to remove it or I probably wouldn't speak to her. When I talk to someone in person I want to see their eyes and their facial expressions. These convey a lot about a person and add meaning to the conversation. For this same reason I don't like talking to people wearing sunglasses and always remove mine if in a conversation.

If they can live with these rules then I am OK with it......although I've never actually seen anyone wear the veil in person.......only in pictures or on TV.

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