33 replies to this topic

[Simbi Laveau]

***** Riot's Maria Alyokhina, 24, and Nadezhda Tolokonnikova, 22, are about to begin two-year prison sentences for daring to stand against Vladimir Putin -- and they're set to serve them in two of the most notorious gulags of the former Soviet regime.

The prisons in Perm and Mordovia are some of the harshest camps in all of Russia, known for severely unhealthy conditions, a complete absence of privacy and a brutal social hierarchy where new convicts are subject to abuse and sexual violence by prison guards.

The decision to convict ***** Riot has already been condemned as a travesty by groups like Amnesty International, a desperate attempt by Russian authorities to suppress dissent and stifle civil liberties in the face of international condemnation.

http://www.guardian....te-prison-camps

Edited by Simbi Laveau, 28 December 2012 - 12:38 PM.

[Urisk]

I weep for the world when brave people likethat band stand up for themselves and those around them, and are treated with such disregard. I've got such despair for these backward authorities and cultures. It's sad that things like this bring out xenophobic thoughts and emotions in me, but it's sickening and should not be tollerated!

We harbour terrorists in this country; indeed covet them for some reason, and yet we've done nothing to protect peaceful protesters speaking out against the oppressive, draconian regime that muscled its way into power.

Edited by Urisk, 28 December 2012 - 12:52 PM.

[Leave Britney alone!]

Urisk, on 28 December 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

I weep for the world when brave people likethat band stand up for themselves and those around them, and are treated with such disregard. I've got such despair for these backward authorities and cultures. It's sad that things like this bring out xenophobic thoughts and emotions in me, but it's sickening and should not be tollerated!

We harbour terrorists in this country; indeed covet them for some reason, and yet we've done nothing to protect peaceful protesters speaking out against the oppressive, draconian regime that muscled its way into power.

Perspectives mean a lot.

I have hope for the world when brave people like that band stand up for themsevles and those around them, and are treated with such disregard, it will certainly change overall perspectives and bring more freedom, I choose to focus on honoring that sacrifice first, then understand the backward authorities and cultures are like that out of historical, geographical, social, political, and economic reasons but will change as the people begin to change their views and no longer support them.

We used to put intellectuals and activists into prisons knowing they would get TB. This is how some in America were treated during the Red Scare. We have changed, so will they. Being negative about the situation won't help. Supporting the band will!

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

If they had protested outside the cathedral then they would not be in prison. Should the worshippers in the cathedral have to be subjected to a foul mouthed and infantile protest? can they not worship in peace? does nobody see that these people have caused offence? This is not about them protesting, it is about their foul mouthed obscenities in a church for no reason than to cause offence and get publicity. But of course the "backward" country of Pushkin, Lermontov, Tchaikovsky, Tolstoy Tsiolkovsky, Mussorgsky, Diagalev, Dostoevsky, Chekov and many others, can hardly be expected to protect innocent worshippers in a church from foul abuse........

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri, 28 December 2012 - 06:56 PM.

[and then]

Atentutankh-pasheri, on 28 December 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

If they had protested outside the cathedral then they would not be in prison. Should the worshippers in the cathedral have to be subjected to a foul mouthed and infantile protest? can they not worship in peace? does nobody see that these people have caused offence? This is not about them protesting, it is about their foul mouthed obscenities in a church for no reason than to cause offence and get publicity. But of course the "backward" country of Pushkin, Lermontov, Tchaikovsky, Tolstoy Tsiolkovsky, Mussorgsky, Diagalev, Dostoevsky, Chekov and many others, can hardly be expected to protect innocent worshippers in a church from foul abuse........

I agree that they should have chosen a different venue but the church already forgave them.  Putin appears to be uniformly sending a message of zero tolerance for protest.  Or have I missed the demonstrations?

[Helen of Annoy]

It’s not about blasphemy.
If it was, then mother Fotina would be in gulag too.  

http://www.dailymail...women-sect.html

Quote

According to the group, founded by a woman known as Mother Fotina in the village of Bolshaya Yelnia, Mr Putin is the reincarnation of St Paul the Apostle.

If I’m not mistaken, Orthodox Christians don’t believe in reincarnation and you can’t simply make new church spinoff.  
On the other hand, maybe Fotina was jailed for blasphemy only it wasn’t in the news.

[OverSword]

Atentutankh-pasheri, on 28 December 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

If they had protested outside the cathedral then they would not be in prison. Should the worshippers in the cathedral have to be subjected to a foul mouthed and infantile protest? can they not worship in peace? does nobody see that these people have caused offence? This is not about them protesting, it is about their foul mouthed obscenities in a church for no reason than to cause offence and get publicity. But of course the "backward" country of Pushkin, Lermontov, Tchaikovsky, Tolstoy Tsiolkovsky, Mussorgsky, Diagalev, Dostoevsky, Chekov and many others, can hardly be expected to protect innocent worshippers in a church from foul abuse........

So people offend some people in a church and get 2 year sentence in one of the countries toughest lock-ups?  Get real!  Let the punishment fit the crime.  Pick garbage up in the streets for a month or pay a fine.  PRISON???  This is unreasonable.  The Russian system is obviously oppressive and barbaric.

Don't speak out against Czar Putin or he will destroy you.

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

and then, on 28 December 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

I agree that they should have chosen a different venue but the church already forgave them.  Putin appears to be uniformly sending a message of zero tolerance for protest.  Or have I missed the demonstrations?

I am convinced they would not be jailed if they demonstrated outside cathedral. Seems that views of ordinary Russians, regardles of politics, that this protest in cathedral was outrageous, are not documented in western media. In matters of criminal law, it is for judge to pass sentence, not the offended party, no matter who they are or how forgiving they are.

General point about the demonstrations. I don't suggest for one moment that United Russia is wildly popular with everybody, clearly it isn't, but western media play tricks with you about demonstrations. First, often Gary Kasparov is shown being thrown into police vehicle. He is not exactly the most popular man in Russia, but he is good at getting himself arrested when his western media friends are present. And please notice that video of him and any other arrests are not censored, media from anywhere can go anywhere in Russia and report on what they like. Second. At the big demonstrations, western media never seem to report on exactly who is demonstrating, except in general terms of anti Putin, pro democracy etc etc. yet any Russian seeing their banners and flags knows who they are. Clearly there are communists, remember them? the great friends of the west. Then there are anarchists , well known for being pro capitalists I think. Then there is strange mix of nationalists and monarchists, they are recognisable by their black yellow and white flags, and there are a lot of them at those demonstrations. Those people are also not the most ardent democrats. So, you read this in western media? Do not take at face value what your media tell you, or more cynically, don't tell you so thy cannot be accused of lying.

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

Helen of Annoy, on 28 December 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

It’s not about blasphemy.
If it was, then mother Fotina would be in gulag too.  

http://www.dailymail...women-sect.html






If I’m not mistaken, Orthodox Christians don’t believe in reincarnation and you can’t simply make new church spinoff.  
On the other hand, maybe Fotina was jailed for blasphemy only it wasn’t in the news.

You deliberately stretch the definition of blasphemy to suit your agenda. What happend in cathedral was certainly blasphemy, what Fotina has said is simply embarrasing foolishness, same as with monk who tried to kiss Putin's hand a few weeks back

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

OverSword, on 28 December 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

So people offend some people in a church and get 2 year sentence in one of the countries toughest lock-ups?  Get real!  Let the punishment fit the crime.  Pick garbage up in the streets for a month or pay a fine.  PRISON???  This is unreasonable.  The Russian system is obviously oppressive and barbaric.

Don't speak out against Czar Putin or he will destroy you.

USA executes mental defectives I think. Also Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, so please, no lectures on barbarity. And by the way, there is no death penality in Russia, or chain gangs.

[Helen of Annoy]

Atentutankh-pasheri, on 28 December 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

You deliberately stretch the definition of blasphemy to suit your agenda. What happend in cathedral was certainly blasphemy, what Fotina has said is simply embarrasing foolishness,

‘scuse me, but claiming St.Paul has reincarnated like some Tibetan Lama is blasphemy.
Far more serious or sinister if you will, than protesting in church. It is the actual blasphemy, while jumping and yelling in a church building is misbehaving.

Quote

same as with monk who tried to kiss Putin's hand a few weeks back

Aw, what a faux pas!
Politicians don’t expect their hands to be kissed.




Edit: sorry, I have to add this:

What was your Guantanamo called? Where have you kept captured Afghans back in the 1980s?
Or you didn’t drag them all the way to Russia to treat them humanely?

Edited by Helen of Annoy, 28 December 2012 - 09:27 PM.

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

I have no idea about inner workings of Christianity, but I know it is not right to invade cathedral and throw insults. All this concern over some people who I know many middle class people in west would cross street to avoid, yet the worshippers in cathedral, who were shocked, are ignored in these games, and that is what it is here, games. I retired from this year back, looks like I let myself play again, but not for long as it is quite boring now, it is same old arguments and tricks again and again. As saying goes, "been there, done that". heart no longer with this nonsense......
Besides, Pskov gets paid for what he does, I don't, and am now tired of this

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

Helen of Annoy, on 28 December 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

Edit: sorry, I have to add this:

What was your Guantanamo called? Where have you kept captured Afghans back in the 1980s?
Or you didn’t drag them all the way to Russia to treat them humanely?

No Afghans dragged back to Russia, not one. No such country existed then, all were Soviets. And in Yugoslavia there were no people dragged back to terrible places, on either side.......

[Helen of Annoy]

Atentutankh-pasheri, on 28 December 2012 - 09:35 PM, said:

No Afghans dragged back to Russia, not one. No such country existed then, all were Soviets. And in Yugoslavia there were no people dragged back to terrible places, on either side.......

Soviets did it, then they vanished in the thin air and Russians suddenly came back from... where were Russians, remind me, during evil Soviet rule?

Ex-Yugoslavia is a bit different. We did what we did and everyone knows everything about everyone. Small community benefit, nothing stays hidden for long.
You usually know what happened before it’s in the news and in greater detail.
But since you asked, Serbia was the only of all six former Yugoslavian republics that has set concentration camps on her soil and brought (by force, of course) people of other ethnicities there. Yes, civilians. I’ll stop now before it becomes too unsettling and too off-topic.

[OverSword]

Atentutankh-pasheri, on 28 December 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

You deliberately stretch the definition of blasphemy to suit your agenda. What happend in cathedral was certainly blasphemy, what Fotina has said is simply embarrasing foolishness, same as with monk who tried to kiss Putin's hand a few weeks back

Wrong again:
blas·phe·my

/ˈblasfəmē/


Noun
The act or offense of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk.

So is putin sacred now?

Edited by OverSword, 28 December 2012 - 09:59 PM.