Dream on - Dictators don't just stop

[SolarPlexus]

Edited April 19, 2012 by libstaK

[SolarPlexus]

More clever PR warmongering. Not only does it helps facilitate foreign intervention (and ultimately neo-colonialism), but it also grants amnesty to NATO/Western crimes. I doubt we will ever see trial for Blair, Clinton, Bush, Albright etc and their corporate masters. Who's next? Sudan I guess.

[SolarPlexus]

I mean this is the same old story seen many times. This is how it begins. The marketing campaigns, NGOs, bypassing the UNSC by using "human rights", "democracy" and "right of self-determination" as leverage, no-fly zones, arming the opposition and providing them with logistics, and finally full-blown civil war engineered externally.

[WoIverine]

Hey Solar, how you doing man? Been a while! I agree, the propaganda machine is old, and needs to stop.

[Corp]

More clever PR warmongering. Not only does it helps facilitate foreign intervention (and ultimately neo-colonialism), but it also grants amnesty to NATO/Western crimes. I doubt we will ever see trial for Blair, Clinton, Bush, Albright etc and their corporate masters. Who's next? Sudan I guess.

Can you point out where in the clip the call for Western intervention was?

[SolarPlexus]

It is embedded in the theme of the video. One surely wouldn't expect a neon sign. Jokes aside, it is fairly obvious. PR firms are paid to make viral videos like this (it's their job) and it's how it starts every time. Remember the picture that fooled the world.

[RavenHawk]

It is embedded in the theme of the video. One surely wouldn't expect a neon sign. Jokes aside, it is fairly obvious. PR firms are paid to make viral videos like this (it's their job) and it's how it starts every time. Remember the picture that fooled the world.

I doubt it is a predecessor for Western invasion. Or are you for this dictator to remain in power? If not, it is going to require someone external that can stop it. Or are you saying that the atrocities are not happening? You’re drinking the subliminal conspiracy koolaid.

Is that the crying baby from the rape of Nanking?

[Corp]

It is embedded in the theme of the video. One surely wouldn't expect a neon sign. Jokes aside, it is fairly obvious. PR firms are paid to make viral videos like this (it's their job) and it's how it starts every time. Remember the picture that fooled the world.

The video is calling attention to a brutal leader under who's rule there have been wipespread murders, many seemingly due to government orders. Are you saying this is a bad thing?

[SolarPlexus]

They *are* dictators and no one is claiming they're perfect. However western "imported democracy" often makes more damage in total than these dictators have had, with very few exceptions.

What can be said of the most recent foreign intervention, the Libya NATO bombing, which killed so many people indiscriminately as collateral damage and not to mention the staggering damage to infrastructure which will take decades to repair, inflicting even more damage to the Libyan citizen in the process. The spoils of war were hastily divided between the European powers and the Libyan people are now forgotten, left to manage themselves in the ruins, while tribes and former "rebels" now fight among themselves. Plus the consequences of DU are yet to be felt by the Libyan people, just as in Fallujah and (in lesser degree) Bosnia and Kosovo. If the West really cared about democracy and human life, it would not act so.

[Helen of Annoy]

Clever, yes, absolutely, but not warmongering at all. All of the dictators mentioned in the video were dictators and mass murderers and such should be stopped.

Also, Solar, there was no civil war in ex-Yugoslavia, that definition of Serbian aggression on its neighbouring, independent countries is wrong and fine example of imperialistic and warmongering attitude.

I cant wait to elaborate it to the last disgusting detail, just ask and Ill accommodate you with pleasure only a survivor who had their place in mass grave reserved can feel.

Dictators dont just stop, they really must be stopped. If US and NATO can and want to help, great. (Im aware the reason for interventions is not humanitarianism but politics and profit, but as long as the outcome is beneficial for people I dont care for motives, to be honest.)

Edit for grammar, I forgot English for a moment. Happens when something annoys me thoroughly.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Helen of Annoy

[RavenHawk]

They *are* dictators and no one is claiming they're perfect. However western "imported democracy" often makes more damage in total than these dictators have had, with very few exceptions.

What can be said of the most recent foreign intervention, the Libya NATO bombing, which killed so many people indiscriminately as collateral damage and not to mention the staggering damage to infrastructure which will take decades to repair, inflicting even more damage to the Libyan citizen in the process. The spoils of war were hastily divided between the European powers and the Libyan people are now forgotten, left to manage themselves in the ruins, while tribes and former "rebels" now fight among themselves. Plus the consequences of DU are yet to be felt by the Libyan people, just as in Fallujah and (in lesser degree) Bosnia and Kosovo. If the West really cared about democracy and human life, it would not act so.

It seems that you want it both ways. If we turn our backs then we are condemned for being uncompassionate. If we do something about it, then we are condemned for being uncompassionate.

People die in war. That may be sad but it is a reality. That is the way of the world. When cutting out the cancer, healthy tissue is sacrificed. In Libya, there weren’t that many “so many” indiscriminately killed. With precision bombing, there isn’t. We could go back to carpet bombing if you like??

The damage to the infrastructure helped the rebels by keeping the government from mobilizing.

What are the spoils of war that the West are divvying up?

What do you think happened in Fallujah? I ask that because my brother was there.

You’re putting too much responsibility on the West. The real question is now that Kaddafi is gone, why are tribes and rebels fighting among themselves? If they cared, they would not act so.

Now, I agree with your concern with the aftermath. That part the West’s plan has not been figured out yet. Politically, they have no will. The first 3 phases of OP Plan 1003 (invasion of Iraq) were masterful and text book. But Phase IV was lacking. The three things that guarantee victory are 1) boots on the ground, 2) an adequate multigenerational plan of occupation, and 3) the will to see it through, to do whatever is necessary.

Democracy is learned by watching it in action, not by letting the indigenous try to figure it out alone.

[Corp]

Still find it weird that a video about a Sudanese dictator is posted and then the OP rants about how evil the West is. How about, oh I don't know, condemning the actual dictator? It's like posting a video about hockey and then talking about how horrible football is.

[Mr.United_Nations]

Ex Communist eastern European countries are always anti. Serbia probably had a arms deal with Gaddaffi or oil deal, the latter is my guess

[Helen of Annoy]

Ex Communist eastern European countries are always anti. Serbia probably had a arms deal with Gaddaffi or oil deal, the latter is my guess

Former Yugoslavia supplied both Libya and Iraq with arms. After Yugoslavia fell apart, Serbia kept that business going, mostly because so called strategic industries in former Yugoslavia were either physically situated in Serbia, either under their control.

Crvena Zastava is manufacturer of popular Kalashnikovs and infamous Yugo cars, guess what they could sell abroad

Sometimes for money, sometimes for oil. Well, they have to make a living, thats not the problem really. The problem is the mentality deeply rooted among Serbian nationalists. They are used to moan how victimized they are and at the same time how dangerous and unforgiving "managers of the Universe" as we mockingly say they are. Quite schizophrenic, if you ask me.

Its the consequence of the forced unification politics, that insisted on Serbifying everyone else until Yugoslavia is transformed into Greater Serbia. That process required sanctification of one, Serbian nation, and demonizing everyone else.

Long story short: naturally, it finally failed.

Now the profitable arms deals with egomaniacs like Gaddafi and Saddam are gone too, in a country with crumbling economy that equals disaster, and Russian brothers, who declaratively love Serbia so much, are not yet seen rushing to help. At least they havent sold anything to Ottomans like few centuries back. Probably because there are no Ottomans anymore.

Ah, the history. Teacher to some, source of frustration to others.

Edit: I have to go now, I’ll definitely be back tomorrow to see how this lovely thread is doing.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Helen of Annoy

[Ccel]

Wait what????

American Indians erased from planet by Americans

Vietnam 5 million dead by Americans.

Japanese hundreds of thousands, 2 nukes by Americans.

Afghanistan, Iraq, Lybia, god knows how many dead.

Serbia thousands dead from bombing and murder.

And not 1 American president?!?

classic western propaganda

[SolarPlexus]

Dictators don’t just stop, they really must be stopped.

Repeat after me

Democracy is learned by watching it in action, not by letting the indigenous try to figure it out alone.

Oh boy I can't wait for the entire world to taste the fruits of western imported democracy and humanitarianism. Scary s***.

Ex Communist eastern European countries are always anti. Serbia probably had a arms deal with Gaddaffi or oil deal, the latter is my guess

We also eat kittens.

[MichaelW]

American Indians erased from planet by Americans

Actually, there are many full blooded Native Americans living in the US with full rights.

Vietnam 5 million dead by Americans.

Actually, you can't attribute all the deaths directly to Americans. The South Vietnamese and North Vietnamese were far more murderous than you attribute Americans to be.

Japanese hundreds of thousands, 2 nukes by Americans.

See Rape of Nakning as well as various other Japanese war crimes.

Afghanistan, Iraq, Lybia, god knows how many dead.

Yes, every single death is caused by Americans. I am also a teapot.

Serbia thousands dead from bombing and murder.

Thousands? You're kidding me right? Thousands were killed im bombings and murders by Serbians. Ever heard of Srebrenica? Sarajevo? Hundreds of people killed in those two actions alone.

And not 1 American president?!?

Tell me, or rather lie to me, what has Barack Obama done to deserve a place on here? Has any American committed genocide? No. Hitler, Milosevic and Stalin have.

classic western propaganda

*snip*

Edited April 19, 2012 by Saru
Removed personal insults

[+and-then]

Repeat after me

Oh boy I can't wait for the entire world to taste the fruits of western imported democracy and humanitarianism. Scary s***.

We also eat kittens.

Perhaps you prefer the fruits of totalitarian states like those in the middle east or the old communist system? I realize that the West is far from perfect but exactly what did they do to p*** in your wheaties? I've noted with mild amusement that a couple of posters from your region have a similar disdain for the West in general. My grasp of recent history is a bit vague but did the West not recently stop a genocide in your part of the world? I am not trying to pick a fight, I just don't understand the context or why the latent anger. Maybe you could enlighten? Thanks in advance (unless you flame me)

[RavenHawk]

Oh boy I can't wait for the entire world to taste the fruits of western imported democracy and humanitarianism. Scary s***.

Then do you want home-grown/imported dictatorships, terrorism, and/or anarchy? American Hegemony may not be perfect, but I would think it’s the best that Mankind has to offer at this point in time. This world is getting too small to leave belligerents alone to themselves. Perhaps, now is the time to offer one of my favorite videos…

I think that people that have grown up in a dictatorship or a theocracy such as Islam won’t be able to comprehend what that clip says unless they have someone to emulate. So yeah, it is kind a scary pushing beyond one’s comfort zone.

This world is a balance. A balance between yin and yang, heat and cold, dark and light, or good and evil. The answer to Islam and Oligarchy is American *STYLE* of Democracy or Republic. That is why that Americanism will continue to struggle against the Dark Energy in this world. I realize that that is an attitude that borders on arrogance, but you are intelligent enough to make the choice yourself.

[Ccel]

*snip*

Typical arrogance of the west, as expected... you think youre the world but you are in a minority. Dont worry after the American dream ends the American nightmare begins, so thankfully youll reap the misery your leaders have sown across the globe....

[SolarPlexus]

Then do you want home-grown/imported dictatorships, terrorism, and/or anarchy?

Perhaps you prefer the fruits of totalitarian states like those in the middle east or the old communist system?

Home-grown dictatorship or imported democracy. An appropriate consolidation of the subject at hand Obviously neither is ideal. Which would be a "lesser evil" ? I guess we all have our opinions on that. As far as history is concerned, economic-imperial interventions have often produced greater destruction in total, with very few exceptions.

American Hegemony may not be perfect, but I would think it’s the best that Mankind has to offer at this point in time.

A disturbing sentiment. Hopefully we could soon have a multipolar world.

This world is at balance.

Quite the opposite. Today NATO is more than 60 years old, and it came a long way. From a defense alliance established during the Cold War, to an aggressive alliance for military interventions. At this time, NATO is the only force in the world to conduct this type of military campaigning. Here is an appropriate quote from La Terreur Americaine (2003), translated: "The American terror , in its current form, is the result of an imbalance between world powers after the demise of the socialist block. America, as the only real superpower, and before the balance is restored, takes what it can, where it can and when it wants, choosing no means, while also falsifying modern events in an Orwellian manner absent of moral standards, creating a perversely fictional account of history... " In common terms, when cat is away mice will play.

[Helen of Annoy]

Repeat after me

Oh boy I can't wait for the entire world to taste the fruits of western imported democracy and humanitarianism. Scary s***.

We also eat kittens.

There’s no shame in repeating the truth, especially if you came to the same conclusions on your own before.

Slobodan Milosevic was a dictator, war criminal, common criminal, insane, self-destructive and on top of it all, not a free man. He was tied by business and politics with the same forces you’re imagining you’re fighting against.

Also, your shamelessly, bizarrely exaggerated number of bombing victims in Serbia disgust me.

Learn your history, those who don’t are doomed to repeat it. Only this time you won’t get to repeat the slaughtering and real bombings people like you afflicted to Croatia and Bosnia. Chetnik hoof will never step on our soil again. Even if my country was not a member of NATO, which, thank god, it finally is.

So keep the good work, Solar. And your alter Ccel too. Don’t you know it’s dishonest and pathetic to post under more than one identity?

Let the UM see what kind of mentality is holding Serbia hostage of its own delusions.

You accuse the West of precisely the same things your political option tried and failed to do. Hypocrisy or ignorance?

[SolarPlexus]

Slobodan Milosevic was a dictator, war criminal, common criminal, insane, self-destructive and on top of it all, not a free man. He was tied by business and politics with the same forces you’re imagining you’re fighting against

We all have our opinions. Most Serbs, myself included, lived much better under Milosevic than today. The euro-fanatical vassal regime we've had since then has proven to be much more fatal to our country.

Also, your shamelessly, bizarrely exaggerated number of bombing victims in Serbia disgust me.

What numbers?

Learn your history, those who don’t are doomed to repeat it. Only this time you won’t get to repeat the slaughtering and real bombings people like you afflicted to Croatia and Bosnia. Chetnik hoof will never step on our soil again.

Well that was... passionate. If you suffered in the Yugoslav wars I am sorry, but we all did. I'm neither a "chetnik" nor someone who has "slaughtered in Bosnia", your anger is misplaced.

Even if my country was not a member of NATO, which, thank god, it finally is.

Well what can I say. Have fun. After all, you have a tradition to uphold, siding with eh... nevermind. Personally I could never be a part of such a criminal organization.

So keep the good work, Solar. And your alter Ccel too. Don’t you know it’s dishonest and pathetic to post under more than one identity?

Come again?

You accuse the West of precisely the same things your political option tried and failed to do. Hypocrisy or ignorance?

What is my political option, what are you on about here?? The West is once again on a neo-colonial spree, I only accuse it of causing more harm than resident home-grown dictatorships they've been replacing.

EDIT: grammar

Edited April 19, 2012 by SolarPlexus

[Helen of Annoy]

We all have our opinions. Most Serbs, myself included, lived much better under Milosevic than today. The euro-fanatical vassal regime we've had since then has proven to be much more fatal to our country.

I know many Serbs. You are the only one unaware that Serbian standard of living in ex-Yugoslavia was destroyed by Milosevic’s idiotic destructive politics.

SANU (Serbian Academy of Science and Arts) with Greater Serbian (or chetnik, seems you don’t know what chetnik is) ideologists like Dobrica Cosic laid out the plan, Milosevic carried it out. It was continuous operation ever since Rankovic (head of UDBA, the murderous organization within Communist Party), only it was kept under the table during Tito. Milosevic’s cabal wrongly assessed it was time to come openly with Serbization of Yugoslavia.

Just ask, I will explain it all to you. Seems like you are in desperate need of some facts.

What numbers?

“Thousands” you mention, and that exist only in your shameless imagination, while four Chinese in Chinese embassy were the largest group that was hit by US bombs, and they wouldn’t be hit if they were not playing Austin Powers in Serbia.

Well that was... passionate. If you suffered in the Yugoslav wars I am sorry, but we all did. I'm neither a "chetnik" nor someone who has "slaughtered in Bosnia", your anger is misplaced.

If you were sorry, you wouldn’t be spewing your Seseljesque propaganda here.

If you agree with murderers, you are not much better than them.

And why are you ashamed of chetniks? Weren’t they freedom fighters according to latest fashion in Serbia? Isn’t there a process to nullify the death penalty Mihailovic was sentenced to after WWII for collaboration with the Reich?

Well what can I say. Have fun. After all, you have a tradition to uphold, siding with eh... nevermind. Personally I could never be a part of such a criminal organization.

I know it confuses you. All Croats don't always choose the same side, but what each of us chooses, dies for it. Serbian tradition is completely the opposite. Which is nicely opportunistic, but somehow not fulfilling for people raised in my tradition.

So, yes, tradition. And honour. Obligations and favours to return. At any cost.

Don’t just be envious, you can watch and learn.

And it’s you that is the part of criminal organization, only you refuse to admit it to yourself. You know what happened, you know what is planned to happen, you know where your links and “wisdom” comes from. Tell your mentor to think about back up plan. You’ll need it, just like the last time.

Come again?

I think you and Ccel are the same person. It’s quite obvious actually.

It’s also a matter of tradition, some see treachery as sign of weakness, like my culture does, some see it acceptable if not desirable.

So, let’s call it a cultural difference.

What is my political option, what are you on about here?? The West is once again on a neo-colonial spree, I only accuse it of causing more harm than resident home-grown dictatorships they've been replacing.

EDIT: grammar

Why do you hesitate to come open? You are clearly against Serbia as part of Europe, you feel pathological hatred against West, you see dictatorships more desirable than democracy... you probably, therefore, call yourself radikal, but the rest of the sane world call those fascists. (It's special kind of fascism, with heavy religious overtones, that's why commies called it "klerofašizam" - clergy based fascism. I will elaborate on request.)

And I disagree with your opinion on quality of western interventions as well as with your ability to assess them at all.

Because:

Your nostalgia for evil clown Milosevic takes away any moral right from you to accuse or even assess anyone else’s morality.

Your perception of Milosevic’s contribution to your country’s political or economic position shows you either don’t understand what quality of life is, either you have unusual and perverted idea of what a desirable life should look like, so again you can’t appoint yourself to judge what is better or worse for other nations, since you apparently want dictatorship, isolation, shame and poverty for your own nation.

Think about it.

There's no shame in changing your mind if you realize there are good reasons to do so. You don't have to accept radikal ideas just because there's a competition in ultra-nationalism in your close circle of people. The world is much more than bunch of your friends and they are probably not as brave and cruel as they boast in their free time.

And guys that saw the war are probably lying to you, you know that. Don't let various Seseljs lead you to your death. Serbia can't afford another war and radikal politics will cause another war if you give them a chance.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Helen of Annoy

[Helen of Annoy]

And I have to go now. It will be great pleasure to drop by again, tomorrow.

We should cover Serbian mercenary in Libya issue, though I must admit some Croats took the same job. Mostly artillery guys, probably because good portion of Gaddafi’s heavy guns were made in ex-Yu.

Similar to Iraq situation, Saddam loved those M-84 tanks. Same type that repeatedly pounded on the hospital in my home town.

How many Serbian town hospitals were bombed for months? None.

And thank god for that.

But you will not preach to me about right and wrong, at least not until you allow yourself to discover Milosevic ordered hospitals to be bombed and until you realize what these words “bombed the hospital” mean.